I thought it would be great to have a place here where we can ask gear and technique related questions.

Mine probably seems simple, but how do you transition for rappelling down a double rope (middle attached at the anchor), to ascending using a handheld ascender?

Posted by citrusleak I thought it would be great to have a place here where we can ask gear and technique related questions. Mine probably seems simple, but how do you transition for rappelling down a double rope (middle attached at the anchor), to ascending using a handheld ascender?

Do you have "On Rope"?

Yes I do.

Posted by citrusleak Mine probably seems simple, but how do you transition for rappelling down a double rope (middle attached at the anchor), to ascending using a handheld ascender?

And this is why I think it's nicer to descend on a single, biner-blocked rope.

I meant to grab a page number from OR for you last night and completely forgot.

Here's similar

http://www.treebuzz.com/pdf/CC_Jun07.pdf

http://www.caves.o...RopeTechniques.pdf
---------------
http://www.usriggi.../kong-trender.html

http://www.sherril...les/Dualcenter-554


I have to agree with dtewsacrificial, why a doubled rope over the anchor instead of a biner or knot block?

I personally cringe at the idea of my rope possibly shifting around the anchor. I've done very short rappels on a doubled rope, we're talking 10/12' basically just to get from one elevation to a lower with no intention of ascending back up, if I was going to ascend I'd rig a single rope and anything longer than 10/12' I'd stick with a well anchored single rope.

If you're using doubled rope because you're throwing rope over from below, why not anchor one end on the ground and use SRT?

http://www.canyone...nd-all-that-stuff/

DISCLAIMER - I'M PRETTY NEW AT THIS MYSELF, AND PROBABLY DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!

Wow, that rigging isn't too complicated. I only started with the doubled rope because that's how I learned and you don't have to worry about knots that could come undone, etc. Also, it seems a little safer to have "two" ropes and more friction. Anyway, it will be nice to be able to use the full length of my rope and ascend it as well.

Is it acceptable to use only one side of an ATC that has two sides? I assume it is.

Posted by citrusleak Wow, that rigging isn't too complicated. I only started with the doubled rope because that's how I learned and you don't have to worry about knots that could come undone, etc.

See biner block.

http://www.canyone...nd-all-that-stuff/

(Edit: LOL, I didn't see that AdventureDog already posted the link.)

Posted by citrusleakAlso, it seems a little safer to have "two" ropes and more friction.

We have done 300ft single-stranded raps and 100ft raps on single wet rope. Single-stranded friction isn't an issue. You just need to know how to add friction to your system.

A Z-rig is one easy way.

http://www.bogley....friction-on-an-ATC

Posted by citrusleakAnyway, it will be nice to be able to use the full length of my rope and ascend it as well. Is it acceptable to use only one side of an ATC that has two sides? I assume it is.

Of course.

Cribbing AdventureDog's disclaimer:

DISCLAIMER - I'M PRETTY NEW AT THIS MYSELF, AND PROBABLY DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!

Posted by citrusleak Wow, that rigging isn't too complicated. I only started with the doubled rope because that's how I learned and you don't have to worry about knots that could come undone, etc. Also, it seems a little safer to have "two" ropes and more friction. Anyway, it will be nice to be able to use the full length of my rope and ascend it as well. Is it acceptable to use only one side of an ATC that has two sides? I assume it is.

In the long run, it will complicate things and make you less safe. You may have two ropes, but only one has to fail for you to drop, and now you have twice as much to manage. If you're rappelling on double rope, and one of the two ropes, for example, slips out of your hand, or the end of the rope comes through your hand, the other rope is now useless. It's not a redundant system. And the added complexity creates more room for human error.

Also, most methods of ascending double rope require special "arborists rope", which is much more abrasion resistant than normal climbing rope. And if you don't have the knowledge and gear to ascend on a particular system, then you shouldn't be rappelling it, at least not much further than 10-15 feet.

The only real purpose of double-rope technique (DRT) is for multi-pitch ascents, and it's almost exclusively used by arborists. Although a doubled over rope can be useful as a way of getting the rope back once you get down, but I would really only recommend this on a very short rappel; like AD said, less than 10-15 feet.

I'm not saying that DRT is inherently dangerous; it can be done completely safely if you know what you're doing. But I would definitely encourage you not to mess with it until you're extremely comfortable with Single Rope Technique (SRT).

EDIT: And I can't answer your last question about the ATC, because in my opinion, using ATCs for rappelling is just dangerous no matter what. It's made for belaying, not for rappelling. But that's open to debate... But if you ask me, you should use a rack.

Posted by DJ Craig Although a doubled over rope can be useful as a way of getting the rope back once you get down, but I would really only recommend this on a very short rappel; like AD said, less than 10-15 feet.

This depends greatly on your descent device. A rack is best for single rope, a figure 8 or atc works fine for double rope.

Why do you consider an ATC unsafe for rappel but safe for belay?

Posted by uLiveAndYouBurn This depends greatly on your descent device. A rack is best for single rope, a figure 8 or atc works fine for double rope. Why do you consider an ATC unsafe for rappel but safe for belay?

Belaying only requires minimal variability of friction. For the most part, when belaying, you are either locked off, or completely free. For rappelling, you want to have as much precise control as possible over the friction. You need both a wide variability, as well as fine, precise control over the amount of friction. The ATC has neither of these. The longer the rappel and the heavier the rope, the more important this is.

Also, I watched a friend fall 50 feet and break his leg using an ATC that he thought was locked off. And yeah, that accident was his fault and not the ATC's fault...but the design of the device was a major contributing factor. It's just too easy to screw up on an ATC.

Also, if you ask Black Diamond, the original inventor of the device, they will tell you that they built it for belaying and it should not be used for rappelling.

What I'm trying to learn is not how to ascend doubled rope, but how to descend doubled rope, and then switch to ascending single at the bottom.

Anyway, I'm probably going do start doing single rope, but I'm just not as comfortable with the rigging at the anchor as I am with doubled.

Posted by citrusleak What I'm trying to learn is not how to ascend doubled rope, but how to descend doubled rope, and then switch to ascending single at the bottom.

If you've rigged your rope the way people usually do when rappeling double, with no knot an the anchor, then you can't ascend using SRT on that rigging, because the other side will just slip. You have to ascend with DRT, using both ropes.

If you have a knot at the top, then of course it's easy; but in that case you probably wouldn't be rappelling double in the first place.

Just as a general side note, not everyone does this, but I beleive very strongly that you should never rappel without full ascent gear, and total confidence that you are capable of doing the ascent. If something goes wrong on rappel, this is your bail-out plan.

What if you are rappeling and you discover that the rope ends 20 feet off the ground? Or you discover a damaged section of rope? Or you get your hair, or clothes caught in the rappel device? Or you discover the rappel lands you in swift water, or any other unsafe condition? In any of those situations, your QAS (quick-attachment safety, usually your top ascender) and ascent system are your only lifeline.

Maybe with the exception of a rappel under about 20 feet with no obstructions, an easy lip (ie. a high anchor), clear visibility to the bottom, where someone has already rappelled on this rope before you, and you are an experienced rappeller.

How about this: Doubled rope with a figure-8 on a bight in the center of the rope. The bight gets attached to the anchor and then it is rappelled doubled and ascended singled. Is there anything absolutely WRONG with doing this?

Posted by citrusleak How about this: Doubled rope with a figure-8 on a bight in the center of the rope. The bight gets attached to the anchor and then it is rappelled doubled and ascended singled. Is there anything absolutely WRONG with doing this?

I don't understand what the advantage would be?

Are you just desperately trying to add friction using your ATC as a decent device?

Just go get a rappel rack already!

http://www.rocknre...Standard-Rack.html

Seriously it's $120 for easily adjustable life saving friction!

No, I don't necessarily need the friction, but unless I'm doing caves or insanely long drops, I'd rather stick with an ATC for descending.

There is nothing technically wrong with this, but I feel like the added complexity of rappelling with that second rope just adds unnecessary complexity. If you have a knot at the top, then the two ropes are no longer self-equalizing, meaning the load on each rope is never going to be equal, so it isn't going to give you any extra strength.

The thing to realize in general is that human error, often as a result of unnecessarily complicated systems, is a far more common cause of accidents than equipment failure. In other words, the complexity of the second rope is far more likely to cause an accident by confusing you, than it is to prevent one due to equipment failure.

Although rappelling seems like the easy part, it's actually the most common time for accidents to occur on rope. And the second most common cause of rappelling accidents, after anchor failure, is rappelling off the end of the rope. Doubling your rope over is a waste of resources and increases the risk of this.

There is only one scenario I can think of to where you would want to rappel down on doubled sliding ropes.

For example, my climbing buddy and I were headed out for a great afternoon of toproping at the local crag. The parking lot is at the top, and it's a long hike from the bottom of the crag back to the top.

We didn't have too much time to climb, so to maximize our time on the rock, I rigged our toprope anchor at the top, put our dynamic rope through our biners at the top, and rappelled down from there with our ATC's.

Once at the bottom, we had a fun afternoon of climbing, and when we were done, we just hiked back out and broke down our anchor from the top.

Maybe that was all bad decisions in the name of cutting out hiking time, but I figured that if anything went wrong, I could lock off the atc, throw prusiks on either rope, lock those into my harness...And...um... figure out something for some footloops...

Er....Well, that's awkward. I'm not exactly sure how I'd actually ascend with a rope sliding about at the top.

Maybe awkward footlocking?

Quick question...can prusiks be tied around two ropes?

Not a big fan of racks, too big. I have a solid atc, love the shit out if it. Use regular atcs to rappel all the time, and with the assault line, there is plenty of friction. You can turn it around to get more or less. And a figure 8 on a double rope is asking for trouble when the ropes creep up and lock you off. You want a rescue 8 with the hooks on it for that.

Posted by -insertnamehere- There is only one scenario I can think of to where you would want to rappel down on doubled sliding ropes. For example, my climbing buddy and I were headed out for a great afternoon of toproping at the local crag. The parking lot is at the top, and it's a long hike from the bottom of the crag back to the top. We didn't have too much time to climb, so to maximize our time on the rock, I rigged our toprope anchor at the top, put our dynamic rope through our biners at the top, and rappelled down from there with our ATC's. Once at the bottom, we had a fun afternoon of climbing, and when we were done, we just hiked back out and broke down our anchor from the top. Maybe that was all bad decisions in the name of cutting out hiking time, but I figured that if anything went wrong, I could lock off the atc, throw prusiks on either rope, lock those into my harness...And...um... figure out something for some footloops... Er....Well, that's awkward. I'm not exactly sure how I'd actually ascend with a rope sliding about at the top. Maybe awkward footlocking? Quick question...can prusiks be tied around two ropes?

We could try and see about prusiking on double if you want. My ascenders got a grip on a double rope, but it was pretty sketchy. I wouldn't have actually tried to go up it unless there was no other choice.

That said, rappelling on double ropes is fine! How do you think you get down from climbing a sport route clean? There's a reason your ATC has two holes...