I have a topic that I'd like to hear some others' perspective on.

I absolutely love teaching people rope stuff. And I am really anal about safety. When I teach people, I feel that I am very careful, and I take things slowly and also always give them the "disclaimer" before we even start.

But I had someone get hurt on rope in a trip that I had organized a few months ago and it has made me think about this a lot. Granted, the person who got hurt was not someone I had trained myself. But...what if it had been? It would have been very hard for me to forgive myself.

Honestly, the people who I've worked with who often scare me the most are people who have a little, but not much previous experience. When you've got a military veteran who was taught that the only thing you'll ever need to rappel is a rope harness and a carabiner with a munter hitch, it can be very hard to convince them otherwise. That's an extreme example, but even people who maybe have rock climbing experience, and don't realize the difference, or someone who has rappelled 30 feet 10 times before, and thinks 300 feet will be just the same thing but longer. With my personality, I like to make people feel good and I have trouble telling these people "no", and insisting that they're wrong. But then if I don't and they get hurt, I am partially responsible.

On the other hand, when I train someone who has absolutely zero past experience, I feel like I have much more success, and they end up being much safer. But then again, I'm not perfect! What if it somehow slips my mind to make sure a girl pulls her hair back before she rappels, or to make sure someone's harness is doubled back, or their main biner is locked... OR what if they simply don't follow my instructions properly and get hurt? I can't imagine the guilt I would feel.

So after the accident a few months ago, part of me wanted to never teach ropework again, and simply refuse to head out with anyone who wasn't already experienced. I very seriously considered adopting a policy of NEVER being a teacher... But then, what if you go out with people who claim to be experienced and when you get out there, you discover they don't know what they're doing... What option are you left with? Obviously you're going to teach them how to be safe. But now you've just taken on huge responsibility if they get hurt. When I really think about it, I'd almost rather train people who have zero experience so I can personally dictate all safety details, rather than trusting people who claim to already know what they're doing! Hell, when I meet people who claim to be experienced, it seems to me only about 20% of those people are actually people I would consider experienced myself.

In the caving world, they have grottos, and you can't use their gear, or rappel on grotto trips until you have passed their rigorous training process and been reviewed by multiple peers. Of course, in the UE world, we just don't have the scale to make something like this work.

I just wanted to hear others' perspectives on these issues, and see if you all have struggled with similar dilemmas.

Wow, you and I must be on the same wavelength! I’ve been thinking about this same topic and trying to put my thoughts together so I could write a post. What started me thinking about this is two safety incidents in the last couple of months, one with no injury and the other being nearly fatal. Both of these incidents happed to people with a LOT of experience.

(Sorry for the long post!)


- Teammate Safety –

I can’t stress enough the importance of equipment review BEFORE connecting onto a rope!

Recently we explored a vertical mine with a 275’ shaft. Most of it had ladder but we SRTed at the very top because the ladder was nearly inaccessible. As is common practice, we dropped a rope down the ladder to act as a safety in case the ladder collapsed. At the end of the day we were removing our gear and one of the guys noticed that he had not screwed his half-round maillon shut! (the one that ties his harness to all his safety gear) Although it is primarily his responsibility to ensure his gear is properly rigged, we all should have been visually checking each other’s gear as we got ready. We are all experienced vertical explorers so we just assumed everyone geared up correctly. We couldn’t have been more wrong!!

Another much more tragic accident happened a few weeks ago leaving a dear friend of mine in the hospital with near fatal injuries. He had set up a zip line and was making his last run of the day. Evidently he didn’t clip in correctly and broke free of the zip line as he neared the end of the line. The fall left him with seven broken ribs, a broken sternum, numerous fractures of his vertebrae, one completely crushed vertebra, two collapsed lungs, and in a coma. Fortunately he lived though it and is recovering at home. This nearly tragic event would have been avoided if he would have double checked his gear!

Both of these incidents happened with very experienced explorers so it’s not just new explorers who get injured. I’ve seen statistical analysis that indicates that there is often a double-peak of accidents among people participating in hazardous activities. The first peak is when the participant is new to the activity and hasn’t fully developed all of the physical and mental skills required for safe participation in the activity. Surprisingly the second peak is amongst much more experienced participants who have become lax in their attention to safety. They run on “autopilot” without giving the activity the level of attention that it requires.

The scuba diving community has developed a buddy system that says you always dive with a partner. One component of the buddy system is checking each other’s gear before heading underwater. While the system isn’t perfect, it is better than no system at all. I feel it should be a standard practice for us to review each other’s gear. In other words, explorer 1 would check explorer 2. Explorer 2 would check explorer 3. And lastly explorer 3 would check explorer 1. This procedure would only take a few moments and could easily safe someone’s life.

Continuing with this train of thought, we should be observing every time an anchor is set, a rope gets tied, or a person hooks onto a rope. This doesn’t mean we don’t trust these people, but it does acknowledge that we get tired or distracted, and make mistakes. I’ve caught a mistake where a new explorer threaded the descending rack incorrectly. It would have been a 50 foot fall onto a pile of heavy timbers.


- Training -

Training people in any kind of hazardous activity opens you up to a certain amount of liability. Training for many activities have training organizations that has developed training materials, protocols, and liability insurance for their instructors. Consider scuba diving, sky diving, or even motorcycle riding. When I was an active dive master, I was required to stay current on the training procedures and carry a liability policy. Violations of the established protocols could result in losing your certification. I am currently a motorcycle safety instructor who teaches basic riding classes. Each of us went through an 80 hour certification course to become licensed instructors. We teach according to a very specific lesson plan developed by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. Our chief instructor performs quality assurance evaluations on instructors to ensure that they have not varied from the official curriculum and are following all safety protocols.

So what does all of this have to do with teaching people basic rope work?

Like DJ Craig, Therrin, and any number of others, I enjoy introducing friends to the world of vertical exploring. I have helped a number of people get started in ascending and descending. I have accumulated a second set of gear so I can help get friends started as well as give them an initial underground experience. The question is, what do we teach? Methods, hardware, and minimum topics (anchors, rappelling, and climbing). Do we need to teach rescue? Hauling systems?

It seems like many of us have “On Rope” and use it as a standard reference guide. I also have a number of other reference works that focus on caving and cave rescue since those methods and techniques are as close to mine exploring as I can find. Since we don’t have a training body to develop training materials and protocols we are left to our own devices when training our fellow explorers in vertical exploration. This also puts us in a situation of unwanted personal liability. For example, I can train someone in rappelling basics. A couple of years from now they can go out on their own, get badly injured, then decide to sue me because I showed them how to rappel. I could easily lose everything I own given the current nature of civil law. I have to say that although I like to get people into exploring, I am reluctant to do so due to liability issues.

Even hardware selection is open to debate. Throughout England almost all of the mine explorers use a Petzl Stop as their descender. I believe that the caving community also sees quite a few of them. When I was there I believe my friends told that explorers in Cornwall have adopted double rope technique as their standard.

Quite honestly I don’t know if there is a good solution. If we try to develop any training standards, we immediately become legally liable for those standards. I don’t know how the caving grottos handle this issue. Maybe through their national organization? I often refer people to existing websites and other resources, but am hesitant to give out specific techniques, methods, gear configurations, or recommendations. Again, not from the lack of desire to help others but from fear of lawsuits.

For now at least will stick with helping people on a case by case basis.

Abby Normal

I've agonized over this reply long enough, you've got some serious questions that deserve serious, thought out, opinions and I hope this expresses my thoughts on the matter.

First, in regards to your teaching style and ability. As someone who received his introduction into vertical access from you, you did a fantastic job. You stressed safety, not only by saying "this is dangerous, this is what can go wrong" but repeatedly showing the correct way and demonstrating incorrect possibly dangerous scenarios. You did this, not in a condescending way, but in a genuine "I'm showing you this so you see what could go wrong."

Everyone is always going to think that the way they've done things in the past is correct ('it hasn't killed me yet') and it very well might be correct - in certain situations. Sure you can descend 100' on an ATC, when there's a nice rock wall to walk down and your buddy's belaying you. And to rock climbers this is a perfectly acceptable and safe practice. I'm convinced that an ATC as a decent device in a vertical access setting is near suicidal: I see no safe way to quickly and positively lock yourself off mid decent and that is IMHO absolutely unacceptable.

The only way to get around engrained habits is to ask how a method or piece of gear handles or applies in the current situation and explain the advantages of the correct technique/gear. Hopefully this is enough to make the person realize the disadvantages of their engrained methods; if that doesn't work the only other choice is to gingerly point out the short comings directly. No one likes to be told they are wrong, or 'sold' something, people respond much better when they sell themselves.

You also run into the problem of - sometimes it's better for someone to use their preferred method even if it's not ideal simply because they are more comfortable with it and less likely to make mistakes.


The big one...
What if someone that you trained gets hurt.
Are you in any way responsible?
Did you teach an unsafe method? I don't think you would - I believe you'd say "I don't know how to do this safely so lets not" as opposed to "this should work."



You are in NO WAY responsible for another persons actions.



Especially in such a risk filled activity, anyone participating should already realize that it's probably fatal if something goes badly wrong, and that it's VERY easy for things to go badly wrong.


Consider the opposite scenario, someone asks you to teach them, you refuse (as you have every right to do), they go out and get sub-par instruction or try and teach themselves. Two months later you hear that they were seriously injured or worse in a rope accident.

Are you responsible?

NO.

But do you feel responsible?
That you're posting this thread, and just your personality lead me to believe you would be torturing yourself with "what if's" Especially if the accident was easily preventable- someone abseils off the end of their rope, or gets stuck halfway through a decent or ascent and dies of harness hang because they don't know how extricate themselves from the situation. Something stupidly simple- that they just didn't know that they needed to know.


You are in NO WAY responsible for another persons actions.


I think we're really lucky in this community that in general everyone has a great sense of personal responsibility and a high level of maturity. At least when you get to the level of where someone would be getting this kind of instruction, the people that aren't mature enough to handle it are usually weeded out by then.



What can we do?

I think it's perfectly acceptable to INSIST that people have their gear checked by at least one other person before getting on rope. NO EXCEPTIONS Honestly, I can't see how anyone could object to having their gear and rigging double checked. If someone's more afraid of feeling foolish after being shown that they've overlooked something than plummeting to their death they shouldn't be within 100' of a rope anyways. It's quick, unobtrusive and could save someones life.

I agree with your opinion that no one should descend without having full ascent gear - I don't think it's out of line to say that no one should ascend without decent gear either. You could 'walk' yourself down using the ascenders but what if an ascender fails, or somehow gets free of its attaching carabiner and is dropped? At the very least have a prussik loop or two.

I fully expect this to be scoffed at as unnecessary, but really: is it that much of a bother to clip two prussik cords to your back gear loop?


I think we should all remain open minded to others methods and gear choices, even if it isn't what we are used to. Look at it this way, everything ever invented was invented in response to a need, problem, or as an improvement on something. That said, you wouldn't tow a boat with a Corvette and you wouldn't take a Hummer on a roadcourse.

Know what to use when and why.



My own rambling has given me a headache- hopefully there's some usefulness in there somewhere.

And of course if you bring the United States legal system into it everyone is responsible for everything always... but I live my life based on morals not laws.

Oh no. I'm one of those guys who came from the military's 'rope and biner = rappel' school. But I learned.

Call people out. If they hurt themselves, that's their problem. But try to help first.

Thanks for your great, insightful responses!

I've typically avoided even thinking about the legal side of this! I've usually assumed that, as long as there is no money involved, and things stay on a small scale, it would be pretty hard for anyone to sue a fellow trespasser, unless things reached the criminal level.

As long as your up-front about everything, and make a good-faith effort, you can't blame yourself.

I understand where you're coming from though. Back in college I taught my girlfriend how to rappel, and the first time she was on a wall and not a hill she panicked and grabbed the rope - above the device - with both hands. In doing so she also grabbed the auto-belay prussick, which would have saved her. Luckily, she was near the bottom and ended up with only a nasty rope-burn and a few bruises. But for a moment I thought I'd maimed my girlfriend. Talking with her about it afterwards, she refused to let me take responsibility - it was her decision, her actions, and she knew the risks before she started.

Now that I'm on the other side of the situation - I'm the injury Craig is talking about - and I can see just how true it is. On the rappel in question I knew what I was getting into. I'd done 100+ foot rappels before, I knew the variable-speeds that I'd be facing, the gear I'd be using, and that dozens of different mistakes could have fatal results. I volunteered for the awkward-overhang pass-a-knot line since those were all things I'd done before and was comfortable with. Despite all that, I still broke a femur. And now I say to you: My decisions, my actions, I knew the risks, and I refuse to let you take responsibility for what happened to me.

Experienced, Inexperienced, there's always that chance.

You can and should try to minimize the risk, but it will never be 100% risk-free. If you aren't ok with the slight possibility that something could go wrong then SRT probably isn't the hobby for you. For me, perhaps because of that and despite what I've been through, I still love it.

A.D. - nice post. No scoffing from this corner. I started carrying a couple of prussik cords on my harness a while back. Seems to make sense to have them "just in case". I found them useful when I was playing with knot passing and rope changes.

Abby Normal

M.H. - I hope you are on the mend and recovering well! Thanks for sharing your feelings about your injury. And what a great attitude! You are absolutely correct that experienced or not, we all face risk every time we clip onto the rope.

Get well soon!

Abby Normal

Posted by MindHacker As long as your up-front about everything, and make a good-faith effort, you can't blame yourself. I understand where you're coming from though. Back in college I taught my girlfriend how to rappel, and the first time she was on a wall and not a hill she panicked and grabbed the rope - above the device - with both hands. In doing so she also grabbed the auto-belay prussick, which would have saved her. Luckily, she was near the bottom and ended up with only a nasty rope-burn and a few bruises. But for a moment I thought I'd maimed my girlfriend. Talking with her about it afterwards, she refused to let me take responsibility - it was her decision, her actions, and she knew the risks before she started. Now that I'm on the other side of the situation - I'm the injury Craig is talking about - and I can see just how true it is. On the rappel in question I knew what I was getting into. I'd done 100+ foot rappels before, I knew the variable-speeds that I'd be facing, the gear I'd be using, and that dozens of different mistakes could have fatal results. I volunteered for the awkward-overhang pass-a-knot line since those were all things I'd done before and was comfortable with. Despite all that, I still broke a femur. And now I say to you: My decisions, my actions, I knew the risks, and I refuse to let you take responsibility for what happened to me. Experienced, Inexperienced, there's always that chance. You can and should try to minimize the risk, but it will never be 100% risk-free. If you aren't ok with the slight possibility that something could go wrong then SRT probably isn't the hobby for you. For me, perhaps because of that and despite what I've been through, I still love it.

I am so glad that you've got such a good attitude about what happened. It actually meant a lot to me to read this. I still think about that day vividly every single time I get on rope.

How exactly did that happen anyway?

Also I'll echo that checking each others' set up is a good idea. I watched another explorer climb over the edge of a 30 story roof without passing the carabiner through the rope when using an atc. Luckily we got his attention before he tried to weight the rope.

Posted by uLiveAndYouBurn How exactly did that happen anyway?

Rapped 300' on a rack, pausing to take pictures and relay radio information. Got down, hung out, decided I wanted to ascend a bit but wanted to go gear-light (since the previous rap I had two bags of gear + etc) and took just two ascenders, a prussik, and an ATC. Ascended 30', hung out till I was soaked / shivering, clipped in to my ATC.

Wrapped the rope around my foot, stood on it, unhooked the ascenders with one hand while keeping the down-end of the rope pulled down with the other (and my feet). With a guide hand on top and the hand beneath clamped down, kicked the rope free of my foot, and started falling at very-near freefall speed.

So I kept both hands clamped down, thought "this is probably gonna suck, I guess we'll know how bad very soon", and the guy watching said I yelled. The way I fell onto the concrete my left femur broke over my right boot. I don't remember the impact hurting, but my leg felt wrong and it hurt like a mother as soon as I tried to move it.

MH - Was this the 'event' at the gloryhole?


Thought I'd go ahead and weigh-in on this topic.

THIS IS A LONG-WINDED POST.

It definitely boils down to two categories, personal feelings and legal issues.

________________________________________________________________________________

Over the last several years I've taken on upwards of 70 people in just mine exploring, and out of those about 20 for vertical access in mines. Have been paid to take a movie crew into mines, have dealt with emergency situation and mistakes. Have LEARNED a ton. Thought I knew a lot before, and now can't imagine how much more I can add to that. If you ever stop learning, you've dropped the ball.

It really puts a toll on your conscience. The constant questions you ask yourself: "have I covered everything?" "are they ready?" "how will they respond in a given situation?" "will they remember what I've taught them?" "have I taught this person to the best of my ability?" "are they having a good time?" "am I moving too fast?" "what skills are they weak on?"

That we are concerned about these issues at all, and that we are asking these questions of ourselves shows that we CARE about the safety of the people we work with; their safety, their lives, and their happiness.

For those of us few who are actually training folks on UE vertical access (and I'll throw in, *especially* in mines and confined spaces which are hazardous all on their own, without going vertical); we have a unique set of issues to face.
Again, these issues are both PERSONAL and LEGAL.
_______________________________________________________________________________


******

THE PERSONAL SIDE

We are all obviously aware of. We think about it every time we introduce a n00b to our "sport". Every time we go on-rope with someone, no matter what skill level they claim. Constantly visually and physically checking our own gear, their gear, the anchor points, the system as a whole, the environment, calculating the physics in our heads, figuring on what is "safe", what things make us uncomfy, looking for errors, thinking "what if this happens" "what if that happens", making backup plans, voicing the concerns we find necessary, and constantly running over all the other minor details in our heads.

Looking back over a vertical access trip and thinking "what didn't go quite right?" "what exactly were the issues?" "how can this be avoided or fixed next time?" "what do *I* need to learn to be better?" "what do *I* need to teach better?" "what can I actually control, and what can't I?" "how would I facilitate a rescue in this situation?" "is this person ready for the next step?"

fOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DO THESE THINGS CONSTANTLY, I APPLAUD YOU!!!
Your instruction and your dedication has both kept people safe and saved lives.

Take a moment, and think of all the people you have assisted and taught to safely navigate and enjoy the places you have taken them to. The people who have learned the things you have taught, the trips you've enjoyed, the good times you've had. The memories you've created, the people who once were acquaintances and are now people you trust with your life. This is no small thing.

As a teacher, this is so much more than a hobby, it is a legacy you are passing on to people. That in their experiences and their joys and their continued explorations, you played a valuable role in keeping them safe and instilling safe values and practices in them.

Also, never forget that the most dangerous part of almost any explore is usually the drive to the site.


How much time do we spend on-rope/scuba diving/skydiving/streaking naked through busy intersections/mine exploring/jumping into the lion's cage at the zoo?
How much time do we spend driving?
People are more than happy to climb into a vehicle weighing over a ton, powered by a gasoline combustion engine which hurtles itself down a paved strip at amazing speeds, often within mere feet of other such vehicles both near them and coming at them; and they are de-sensitized to the FRACTION OF A SECOND it takes for utter disaster to occur.

Teaching someone to correctly use vertical access skills is (I would imagine) a lot like a parent teaching their child to drive a vehicle. It is dangerous, yes, but it can be done with relative "safety".
At some point you have to trust that you have done the best you can, and let them take the wheel.
There is NO way that you can control every thing that someone does, and everything that will happen to them; you can only teach them the best that you are able, and then scoot them out to be on their own.

Unfortunately, most people learn the best from their mistakes.
In the vertical access world, your first mistake can KILL you, as we know.

For every mistake that you can think of that you or others have experienced in the vertical access world that has NOT led to a death; think of the gravity of learning that has taken place. Think of how it teaches people that they are FRAGILE CREATURES, that they aren't 'the shit', that they don't know all that there is to know, that everyone makes mistakes, that it is ingrained in their mind that they will not only never make that mistake again, but that they will now be super-aware of every other thing they do on-rope as well.


These are important lessons not only for the trainee, but for the teacher as well.
As a teacher, we NEVER STOP LEARNING. The vital part is that we continuously pass these things on to those that we teach, but also that we LEARN what we can and cannot control.
I agree that we will feel guilt both ways, I have thought about this quite a bit myself.
The guilt we will feel knowing that we taught our best, and that we KNOW that we cannot control every situation, is considerably less.


Again, I can't imagine what it is like to be a parent. I now realize the hell I have put MY parents through though. Releasing someone to be on their own is a huge step mentally, (and when it's adults you're working with, it's not like you *really* have any control anyway); but you still hope and pray for their safety. Knowing that you have taught them what you can is what you take your solace in. And if their mistakes don't kill them, you know for damn sure that they will learn from them! (as we have)

******

THE LEGAL SIDE

Unfortunately we live in a very litigious society. Those of us in or near California know this ALL too well.

As a teacher on the fringe of the law and legality, you should take every opportunity to protect yourself against lawsuit that you can.

A "Release of Liability" agreement is probably the *least* that you should use.

This states that you are a private citizen, you are not a certified teacher, you are not a licensed instructor; that you partake in sport activities with other individuals who are of the age of legal consent and are able to make their own legal decisions. That any activities they engage in, with or without you, with or without your equipment, with or without your oversight or supervision; you are not liable nor responsible for, etc etc.
It (hopefully) releases you not only from CRIMINAL liability, but also CIVIL liability. Even if you are found "not guilty" in criminal court, you can STILL be found "guilty" in civil court.

If you are teaching people something which they or their next of kin can SUE YOU FOR in today's society, I suggest that you educate yourself and protect yourself as best as possible.

We all hope and wish that these things never come into play, but we should also be realists to the point that we realize that accidents happen. That we cannot control everything. That sometimes people will turn against us. That money is a huge force that takes hold of people. That most people want to put blame on someone else.
We can only thank and be thankful for the people who make their own decisions and actions as adults and do not try to hold us responsible.

We train people as best as we can in this hobby, we pass on our legacy of training on to them. We let them out on their own, and we hope that they remember all that they have been taught. We hope and wish for their safety. We emphasize problem solving skills over specific techniques. We teach them to think outside the box. We learn all that we can, and we pass this on to others.

That is all that we can do. That is all that can be expected of us.

It is still a huge burden. No one who is not a teacher can understand these things.

Teach well, and take pride in what you have taught.
________________________________________________________________________________

Having gotten that all off my chest over the last 3 hrs, there is a few more things I'd like to say.

I agree that it is easier to teach someone who knows nothing, than someone who thinks they already know something, or someone who is stuck in a mental rut about something.

I have found that I am MORE worried about the people who have never fucked up, who have never faced a serious problem, who get to thinking "this is easy", that they don't need to continually be watching out for "dangerous" issues, who get complacent in never having had a serious problem. Who start thinking that *I* am a total pessimist, or who get tired of my nagging about thinking outside the box, only because they've never HAD to think outside of it. That they have never had an emergency to deal with.

Thinking safely outside the box should be the basis of all vertical access methods and problem solving situations.

If you understand the limits and constraints of every device and technique, you should safely be able to rappel a 10' rope or a 600' rope on either a munter hitch, using a single carabiner, or a figure 8, an ATC or a rack, an ATS or a self-braking descent device or a bobbin style device.

You should be able to ascend a rope using a "frog" system, an ad-hoc system using part of your usual system as well as another piece you don't usually use, someone else's equipment, a couple prussik loops, or only the rope itself by footlocking, SRT or DRT.

Even though some systems are BETTER than other systems, no system should be overlooked for training or emergency purposes.

Rope skill training "outside the box" should become a way of thinking for all vertical access folks, even if they typically use the same system over and over, and even if they only ever use the same 4 knots like I do.

Anyone who considers themselves well-versed in vertical access should still understand a variety of other knots, be familiar with limitations of rope and webbing, be familiar with all types of carabiners, you should understand load forces in static and dynamic, fall factor, proper anchoring techniques and physics, body anchoring, basic climbing skills, belay styles, a plethora of ascending and descending methods and equipment, mechanical advantage, be familiar with suspension trauma and how to mitigate it, should stress the importance of using helmets and proper harness fit, how to tie impromptu harnesses out of rope or webbing, be able to facilitate a self-rescue, should have a backup plan in place, should have an overall rescue plan in place, and should have contact numbers in order to set such a plan in action; as well as being familiar with any significant health issues of people in your group.

Any less is dropping the ball where on-rope activities come into play.

Posted by MindHacker Rapped 300' on a rack, pausing to take pictures and relay radio information. Got down, hung out, decided I wanted to ascend a bit but wanted to go gear-light (since the previous rap I had two bags of gear + etc) and took just two ascenders, a prussik, and an ATC. Ascended 30', hung out till I was soaked / shivering, clipped in to my ATC. Wrapped the rope around my foot, stood on it, unhooked the ascenders with one hand while keeping the down-end of the rope pulled down with the other (and my feet). With a guide hand on top and the hand beneath clamped down, kicked the rope free of my foot, and started falling at very-near freefall speed. So I kept both hands clamped down, thought "this is probably gonna suck, I guess we'll know how bad very soon", and the guy watching said I yelled. The way I fell onto the concrete my left femur broke over my right boot. I don't remember the impact hurting, but my leg felt wrong and it hurt like a mother as soon as I tried to move it.

I still don't understand. If you had your break hand clamped down you shouldn't have gone anywhere. Did you not clip in the ATC correctly?

Sounds almost like when he went to clip in his ATC he just didn't get the biner through the bight of rope. Possibly having though that he did, by the time the other stuff was freed up, when he went to put weight on it he began falling "at nearly free-fall speed".

Did anyone actually hear the ZIIIIIP noise of you falling and the rope pulling through? Or did you just fall with no zipping noise?

An unregulated fall with the rope still traveling through a descent device on its own usually produces a pretty distinctive noise.

Therrin, I don't think that's what happened, because the rope he fell on ended up with some pretty severe melting across the entire distance that he fell, the worst of it being at the very end, so there must have been SOME friction from the ATC. Also, the ATC ended up on the ground with him, not stuck half way up the rope.

I don't know for sure, and of course he can answer this better than me (I was over by "the hump" at the time) but here's the understanding I have.

He stood up on the tail of the rope and unclipped the top ascender. At that point, his feet were effectively acting as a "brake hand." Now he has to sit, and at the same time as he shifts his weight from his feet to his harness, he has to simultaneously make the transition of braking with his feet, to braking with his hand. The slightest gap in that transition would cause him to start falling. And once you start falling even a tiny distance on a wet, slimy rope with an ATC, you don't have much chance of recovering enough friction to stop your fall in less than 50 feet.

Correct me if this does not sound correct to you, MH!

Gotcha, I hadn't pictured it like that from the way he typed it, but that makes sense.

To avoid that kind of situation, instead of completely unclipping your handled ascender, you can un-cam it and slide it all the way down to just above your descent device, then let it re-cam onto the rope.

Then after you've transitioned from foot back to your brake hand and you're all set to go, you unclip your ascender with your free hand and use the non-locking oval on the top end of it to clip it to your harness and then head down.
If anything happens with your brake hand, at the very least you're handled ascender will grab again when the slack runs out between it and your descender.

Alternately you could attach your descender while standing up in your footloop, leaving the top of your descender close to the bottom of your ascender; then unclip your ascender as the last thing you do before descending.


It's always far easier to point out the "this situation could have been solved by doing this" after-the-fact, no argument here.

But it's something for all of us to think about at the very least.

I like to see "after the fact" discussions about events like this because there so much we can learn and apply to our future explorations. While it is very unfortunate that the fall occurred, it would be made worse if no lessons were taken away.

One lesson that continues to be apparent to me is that we need to continue to practice our skills in a safe environment so when we face a given situation in the field, we know how to handle it. I have recently been reading about the military's Special Operations Forces. They train and train and train to ensure that they execute properly in every circumstance and condition. I'm not suggesting that we are "special forces" but I do think that their focus on ongoing training makes a lot of sense for those of us in high-risk activities.

Just my .02 worth.

Abby Normal

Posted by Abby Normal One lesson that continues to be apparent to me is that we need to continue to practice our skills in a safe environment........... Abby Normal

My neighbors think I'm quite insane going 10-12' up and down a rope slung over a tree limb. The cool ones come and ask what I'm doing, and the one's that snicker to themselves and their friends - fuckem.

Sorry, I've been kind of AWOL from UER recently. What Craig said sounds right. I wasn't careful about not shock-loading the ATC. In the dry with a figure-eight I've slid off the edge with two feet of slack in the rope to get over an ugly lip or something, but in the wet with an ATC it's different. I don't remember the noise, but I do remember a lot of water being squeezed out of the rope as I fell, and at the bottom I had to unclip to slide free of where all the water was raining down, so I'm sure it was clipped in right.

And yeah Therrin, this was the event at the gloryhole.

Looking back on it, I should have tested my brake-hand with an ascender still clipped to the rope. And like you said, having the after-the-fact discussion is important, as it ensures we all keep learning and hopefully will save someone from making a similar mistake.