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UER Forum > Private Boards Index > Religious Discussion > Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion" (Viewed 6003 times)
Esoterik 


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Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< on 6/14/2013 7:36 PM >
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http://www.burntor...edom-from-religion

On Thursday, Rick Perry signed the "Merry Christmas Bill," written by two Republicans with the aim of making it legal for schools to "educate students about the history of traditional winter celebrations, and allow students and district staff to offer traditional greetings regarding the celebrations". This allows school administrators to say "Merry Christmas" and other holiday greetings on school grounds, as well as set up religious displays in schools.

"I'm proud we are standing up for religious freedom in our state," Perry said. "Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion."

Clearly and unquestionably, Rick Perry doesn't give a damn about the constitution. Freedom of religion entails freedom from imposed religion - the government has no right to endorse religion, and public school grounds certainly count, as landmark Supreme Court cases on the First Amendment have established. Just the way they don't have the right to endorse not having a religion. Does this bill allow schools to put up atheistic writings on its walls?

Of course not, because Rick Perry and his cohort of extremists want to impose their religion on everyone else. That's why this clown governor, normally belching up bile about freedom from the federal government, is "proud" to deny you "freedom from religion". Can there be any question about the intent of a bill called the "Merry Christmas Bill"?

Perry's claims about kids not being able to celebrate prayer in schools are false, as PolitiFact proved two years ago. "So, can kids pray and openly celebrate Christmas in school? Absolutely, we conclude, though public school officials are barred from advancing a religion or making children pray or celebrate solely the Christian aspects of Christmas," PolitiFact wrote in 2011.
Well, that's all different now. Now our school kids have freedom from imposed religion, something Rick Perry never wanted them to have in the first place. Nothing merry about that.






[last edit 6/14/2013 7:40 PM by Esoterik - edited 1 times]

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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 1 on 6/14/2013 8:11 PM >
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In the same vein ...
The Founders could never have imagined that freedom FROM religion would become the official state religion of the US.
Our technical courts have evelated athiesm as the state religion.
That was never the Founder's intent.

A law just so we can say "Merry Christmas?"
That is just silly ... but in our current climate?
Makes sense.

What's wrong with teaching folks about Western heritage and culture?
Must we have a law to talk about such things?




Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings.
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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 2 on 6/14/2013 8:44 PM >
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Posted by DevilC
In the same vein ...
The Founders could never have imagined that freedom FROM religion would become the official state religion of the US.
Our technical courts have evelated athiesm as the state religion.
That was never the Founder's intent.

A law just so we can say "Merry Christmas?"
That is just silly ... but in our current climate?
Makes sense.

What's wrong with teaching folks about Western heritage and culture?
Must we have a law to talk about such things?


because some people don't believe in the invisible friend and don't want it pushed on them.




Esoterik 


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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 3 on 6/14/2013 9:07 PM >
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Where does religion belong? In YOUR church. In YOUR home. And that is fucking all.




“You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons.”
Samurai 

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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 4 on 6/15/2013 1:12 AM >
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Posted by Esoterik
Where does religion belong? In YOUR church. In YOUR home. And that is fucking all.


outstanding.




DevilC 


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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 5 on 6/15/2013 3:05 AM >
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Sure.
But like it or not, religion, religiosity, and common culture (shaped largely by xtianity) shaped the nation we live in.
Western tradition was founded around Christianity.
Like it or don't.



Posted by Samurai
because some people don't believe in the invisible friend and don't want it pushed on them.







Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings.
Esoterik 


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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 6 on 6/16/2013 1:08 AM >
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Posted by DevilC
Sure.
But like it or not, religion, religiosity, and common culture (shaped largely by xtianity) shaped the nation we live in.
Western tradition was founded around Christianity.
Like it or don't.








Which version of Christianity? The puritans, the shakers, the Quakers, the Mormons, the spiritualists? Those who fancied themselves Christ reincarnated and established communities like Mother Ann? The Perfectionists like the Onieda Community? The Freemasons and secret esoteric societies? Our religious history is deep and those odd offshoot ( some very influential) of Protestant Christianity were key in early taking up progressive causes like suffrage and emancipation. But today's religious right wants to rewrite history. They would have it that the founders were all evangelicals, and that their version of protestant OT fire and brimstone hard right theology was and is the only one true religion, their version that must be codified and taught in schools.




“You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons.”
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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 7 on 6/16/2013 1:39 AM >
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And also, please show me exactly where in Christian doctrine it mentions Christmas.




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splumer 


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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 8 on 6/17/2013 4:47 PM >
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Posted by DevilC
In the same vein ...
The Founders could never have imagined that freedom FROM religion would become the official state religion of the US.
Our technical courts have evelated athiesm as the state religion.
That was never the Founder's intent.


How'd you learn that? A Ouija board? Atheism is not the "official state religion" in any sense. The government is secular. There's a difference.



A law just so we can say "Merry Christmas?"
That is just silly ... but in our current climate?
Makes sense.


They could say Merry Christmas before. There never was a law stopping them. The whole bill was just BS.


What's wrong with teaching folks about Western heritage and culture?
Must we have a law to talk about such things?


Nothing, as long as you're not pushing a religion.


But like it or not, religion, religiosity, and common culture (shaped largely by xtianity) shaped the nation we live in. Western tradition was founded around Christianity. Like it or don't.


Except for the Constitution, which was based on Greek democracy. But it doesn't matter. Church and state are separate. Nothing in our Constitution gives any indication that it was based on any Christian idea (except for being OK with slavery), and John Adams said the US was not founded on Christianity in the Treaty of Tripoli.




“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”

-Madeline Albright
DevilC 


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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 9 on 6/17/2013 5:24 PM >
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That's more than a bit revisionist and plucks a comment out of context.
I am not arguing for nor against, only commenting that you're incorrect.
I am certainly not for state religion ... and am not a big fan of churches.
Am well aware of the personal beliefs and opinions of the Founders of the US.
That said ... religion and faith was central to their lives.
Christianity was central to the ideas our new nation espoused ...
The Constitution does not name A church, but it refers to "the creator."
I get that this is an off-shoot of the Enlightment which attacked the Catholic Church and other established churches (Church of England) which were ntotious for the suppression of the free exercise of reason.

Here are a few quotes from John Adams that give a picture of his mindset:
a)
“Human government is more or less perfect as it approaches nearer or diverges farther from the imitation of this perfect plan of divine and moral government.”
b)
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
c)
“Statesmen by dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand . . . . The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty.”
d)
“The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature.”

Alexis de Tocqueville
"Democracy in America"
1835

“Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more did I perceive the great political consequences resulting from this state of things, to which I was unaccustomed. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united, and that they reigned in common over the same country.”

French atheist Achille Murat,
"A Moral and Political Sketch of the United States"
1833

“It must be admitted that looking at the physiognomy [discernible character] of the United States, its religion is the only feature which disgusts a foreigner…There is no country in which the people are so religious as in the United States; to the eyes of a foreigner they even appear to be too much so…The great number of religious societies existing in the United States is truly surprising; there are some of them for everything; for instance, societies to distribute the Bible; to distribute tracts; to encourage religious journals; to concert, civilize, educate the savages; to marry the preachers; to take care of their widows and orphans; to preach, extend, purify, preserve, reform the faith; to build chapels, endow congregations, support seminaries; catechize and convert sailors, Negroes, and loose women; to secure the observance of Sunday and prevent blasphemy by prosecuting the violators; to establish Sunday schools where young ladies teach reading and the catechism to little rogues, male and female; to prevent drunkenness…”

English atheist Harriet Martineau
"Society in America"
1837

“There is no evading the conviction that it [Christianity] is to a vast extent a monstrous superstition that is thus embraced by the tyrant, the profligate [immoral], the weakling, the bigot, the coward, and the slave…The institutions of America are, as I have said, planted down deep into Christianity. Its spirit must make an effectual pilgrimage through a society of which it may be called a native; and no mistrust of its influences can forever intercept that spirit in its mission of denouncing anomalies, exposing hypocrisy, rebuking faithlessness, raising and communing with the outcast, and driving out sordidness from the circuit of this, the most glorious temple of society that has ever yet been reared.”





[last edit 6/17/2013 5:33 PM by DevilC - edited 1 times]

Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings.
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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 10 on 6/18/2013 1:31 AM >
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it's 2013, sunshine... the time for organized religion has come and gone. Most people, and I may be on a limb here, don't want to be told what they have to believe and really don't want acommodate what is really an arcane way of looking at the world. As an American, I often ashamed at the fact that there are so many DUMB FUCKS in this country that believe angels are real and all the nonsense that goes with the invisible friend.

When you start talking like this Rick Perry, the only difference between him and the muslims is car bombs and really neat scarves.




DevilC 


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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 11 on 6/18/2013 12:16 PM >
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No sir.
Whites are being supplanted by various flavors of Central and South Americanos of varying degree of pick an ethnicity. In Brazil we'd call them Pardo.

They are overwhelmingly Catholic and increasingly ecumenical.
If you thought 'Muricuh was going secular ... you're in for a rude awakening.
It's only going to get worse.


Posted by Samurai
it's 2013, sunshine... the time for organized religion has come and gone. Most people, and I may be on a limb here, don't want to be told what they have to believe and really don't want acommodate what is really an arcane way of looking at the world.






Science flies you to the Moon. Religion flies you into tall buildings.
tekriter 


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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 12 on 8/14/2013 12:05 PM >
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Posted by DevilC
Sure.
But like it or not, religion, religiosity, and common culture (shaped largely by xtianity) shaped the nation we live in.
Western tradition was founded around Christianity.
Like it or don't.




And x-tianity was either made up or stolen from other traditions, like the pagan mid-winter festivals.

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.”
~John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” 1787-1788

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
~Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
-Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813





It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
Samurai 

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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 13 on 8/14/2013 7:36 PM >
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Posted by tekriter


And x-tianity was either made up or stolen from other traditions, like the pagan mid-winter festivals.

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.”
~John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” 1787-1788

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
~Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”
-Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813




slam. dunk. muthafucka.





Soldat 


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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 14 on 8/15/2013 8:14 AM >
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Crying because people say Merry Christmas or because a teacher hangs up a cardboard Menorah in her classroom is such a pathetic example of first world problems.

Freedom of religion does certainly entail a freedom from endorsed religion, however it does not entail the suppression of religion in public. I find it very hard to claim that the simple existence of something like a Christmas tree is a school or a Nativity set in a town square is an intrusion of religion into anybody's life, especially considering the pervasive nature of such things on TV, the Internet, people's lawns, in front of churches, on billboards, etc. The majority should never be allowed to force their beliefs down the throats of the minority, but similarly the majority should not be forced to conceal their beliefs to satisfy the whims of the minority either.





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Hi!

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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 15 on 8/15/2013 2:59 PM >
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Posted by Soldat
Crying because people say Merry Christmas or because a teacher hangs up a cardboard Menorah in her classroom is such a pathetic example of first world problems.

Freedom of religion does certainly entail a freedom from endorsed religion, however it does not entail the suppression of religion in public. I find it very hard to claim that the simple existence of something like a Christmas tree is a school or a Nativity set in a town square is an intrusion of religion into anybody's life, especially considering the pervasive nature of such things on TV, the Internet, people's lawns, in front of churches, on billboards, etc. The majority should never be allowed to force their beliefs down the throats of the minority, but similarly the majority should not be forced to conceal their beliefs to satisfy the whims of the minority either.




I liked what you were saying but would add that your minority/majority binary is a bit unfair given that the majority of the majority had faith forced upon them at a young age with no choice in the matter. It is now coming to light that fastest growing "faith" is none at all. Personally, you can put every religious symbol you want in the public square, they are meaningless to me. And, when you have people killing each other over essentially nothing, maybe it's time to rethink our devotion to our "gods"?




You betcha
splumer 


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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 16 on 8/15/2013 4:27 PM >
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Posted by Soldat
Crying because people say Merry Christmas or because a teacher hangs up a cardboard Menorah in her classroom is such a pathetic example of first world problems.

Freedom of religion does certainly entail a freedom from endorsed religion, however it does not entail the suppression of religion in public. I find it very hard to claim that the simple existence of something like a Christmas tree is a school or a Nativity set in a town square is an intrusion of religion into anybody's life, especially considering the pervasive nature of such things on TV, the Internet, people's lawns, in front of churches, on billboards, etc. The majority should never be allowed to force their beliefs down the throats of the minority, but similarly the majority should not be forced to conceal their beliefs to satisfy the whims of the minority either.




The Supreme Court has kind of already spoken on this. Religious displays on public property (especially gov't buildings & the like) have been determined to be a de facto endorsement of a particular religious belief by gov't. Plus, given the pluralistic nature of our society, there's no way to adequately represent all religious beliefs (including those of non-believers) as well as no easy way to determine which beliefs are sincerely held and which are jokes (the FSM and SubGenius Churches come to mind). So the best way is to not have religious displays on public property at all. That doesn't prevent private entities from doing whatever they want on their own property.

The problem I always had with nativity scenes is twofold: first, they are almost always cheesy and second, the 2nd Commandment says not to make graven images. It doesn't say "except for plastic nativity scenes." But the pervasive nature of such images makes it all the more imperative for them not to appear in publicly-owned places. I like to be able to escape that crap every once in a while.

One more point: if the tables were turned, and Muslim images were displayed in public places, how would Christians feel?


BTW, Soldat, weren't you banned? Welcome back!



[last edit 8/15/2013 4:28 PM by splumer - edited 1 times]

“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”

-Madeline Albright
jukebox fuckup 


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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 17 on 8/16/2013 12:49 AM >
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I'm sure that whole cultural genocide/requirimento thing helped Christianity assume dominance. I imagine executing dissent was a very effective strategy.



[last edit 8/16/2013 12:51 AM by jukebox fuckup - edited 1 times]

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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 18 on 8/16/2013 4:24 AM >
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Posted by splumer


The Supreme Court has kind of already spoken on this. Religious displays on public property (especially gov't buildings & the like) have been determined to be a de facto endorsement of a particular religious belief by gov't. Plus, given the pluralistic nature of our society, there's no way to adequately represent all religious beliefs (including those of non-believers) as well as no easy way to determine which beliefs are sincerely held and which are jokes (the FSM and SubGenius Churches come to mind). So the best way is to not have religious displays on public property at all. That doesn't prevent private entities from doing whatever they want on their own property.

The problem I always had with nativity scenes is twofold: first, they are almost always cheesy and second, the 2nd Commandment says not to make graven images. It doesn't say "except for plastic nativity scenes." But the pervasive nature of such images makes it all the more imperative for them not to appear in publicly-owned places. I like to be able to escape that crap every once in a while.

One more point: if the tables were turned, and Muslim images were displayed in public places, how would Christians feel?


BTW, Soldat, weren't you banned? Welcome back!


Thanks for the welcome back.

While I agree that it is fair to demand schools and government not spend their tax dollars on religious displays and such I generally adopt a "when in Rome" outlook towards things, and if a majority of people want a Christmas tree in the town square and wanna pay for it who really cares? Same for anything else. But that is neither here nor there, you are correct about how the Supreme Court has ruled on it and I cannot argue it, that is the law. I do think it goes a bit overboard when people get to crying that there is a 70 year old statue of the Ten Commandments in a public building, or demand a Bible verse be covered after being a part of the building since its creation. It gets to the point where it is just silly bitching for the point of bitching. Until the Court Starts enforcing Biblical law or Shariah law I couldn't care less that there is a statue of the Ten Commandments outside, or an inscription from the Koran, and I don't understand why people get in a huff over it. Oh yeah, first world problems. In the Middle East people are being killed and jailed for disobeying scripture. In many countries atheism or not practicing a certain religion leads to ridicule and violence as a norm, now that is a big deal. Meanwhile in American its all "Whah, the Valedictorian mentioned God in his speech, help help, I'm being oppressed!"

Where I really find a problem is in things like that, trying to censor individual expression of religion in public spaces. Preventing students from saying Merry Christmas, or from praying before games if they want, and all that garbage. At that point, to me, it is going beyond preventing state endorsement or support of a religion, and you are then interfering with people's free practice.

For the record, I also find nativity scenes to to usually cheesy.




splumer 


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Re: Rick Perry: "There is no freedom from religion"
< Reply # 19 on 8/16/2013 2:38 PM >
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I get the first world problems argument, but it's like saying "how can you have such a big Thanksgiving dinner when kids are starving in Africa?" I'm a member of both the ACLU and the Freedom From Religion Foundation, and yeah, sometimes they fight some battles that seem a little unnecessary, but usually their suits are based on complaints by individuals. They don't have lawyers going around looking for violations.

If someone says "Hey, that prayer hanging in my public school violates the establishment clause," are supposed to say "Fuck you, it's always been there. Deal with it."? That's pretty much what happened in Cranston, RI, when student Jessica Ahlquist made that complaint. Simply because something has always been there, or is in some way "traditional" doesn't make it right.




“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”

-Madeline Albright
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