I know it's a childish question. Sitting here reading about whoever is being killed in Iraq because they are aren't the same religion as the killers and I think WTF? For all the good religion does (charitable works, keeps some people alive for without it they would off themselves, got me good Italian bread on Sundays and Christmas presents too), it sure seems that millions use it for bad stuff as well. But why? If you understand the messages of the great Prophets or Gods, don't they all argue for peace? I simply don't get it happens.

Many religions believe that one or more gods is/are instructing them to do certain things. This varies between religions and conflicts often occur when clashes in religious doctrine happen.

Someone tell me if that's completely off base, please.

I'm not making light of what you said when I say that what you said sounds insane. Maybe I'm not a chosen one who God speaks to directly but to think someone who isn't there (in the physical sense) told you to do something isn't in my realm of understanding. Isn't there something inside us all, having nothing to do with religion, that says "It's not good to hurt others"? Maybe there isn't.

Funny, this just showed up on reddit:
http://en.wikipedi...tiname_of_Muhammad

Maybe it was planted as a hopeful reminder.

My thought was that killing people isn't a good way to convert people. They might say "Oh yeah, I was going to convert to Sunni Islam anyway! Thanks for kickstarting that for me!" while keeping their original faith in secret. Russian Orthodox folks in Soviet-era Russia did that.

My own personal view is that belief in the supernatural is always a negative. It blinds you to reality and dampens curiosity. That doesn't discount in any way the good that religious people and organizations do. The church we have our Boy Scout meetings at does a lot to help the community, even while barely being able to make ends meet.

But then I see the mega churches and it makes my blood boil. I used to work for an AV company, and we did installs on a lot of churches. There was a church that spent $100k just on audio.* That's more than the gear a major band would take on tour. I kept thinking how many poor people could that have fed, clothed or housed?

I think religion on an individual basis might be a positive; on a large scale it is a negative.



_{*For those interested, I remember they had a Midas console, multiple Crown amps and Meyer line arrays.}

Premise based on a false assumption. Define 'good' in the context of religion.

Posted by G to the Race I'm not making light of what you said when I say that what you said sounds insane.

Just for clarification - do you mean that the idea itself sounds insane, or how I said it sounds crazy?

If you meant the former, I completely agree.

Posted by Harvestman Just for clarification - do you mean that the idea itself sounds insane, or how I said it sounds crazy? If you meant the former, I completely agree.

Exactly, the former. Sorry I wrote poorly.

Posted by KublaKhan Premise based on a false assumption. Define 'good' in the context of religion.

Good as in generally accepted as a healthy pursuit. You could argue, rightfully so, that religion is bad and I would agree. Religion does have merits as an organizing principle and as a way to bring good out of people. My point or rather question is, if it is good in these ways why does so much harm come from it?

Posted by G to the Race Good as in generally accepted as a healthy pursuit. You could argue, rightfully so, that religion is bad and I would agree. Religion does have merits as an organizing principle and as a way to bring good out of people. My point or rather question is, if it is good in these ways why does so much harm come from it?

I think his point is that what commonly would be called bad is looked at as good in the context of certain religions.

In a present day example while we consider the beheading of children and mass persecution of people bad the radicals in ISIS believe they are doing good by ridding the world of those heathens.

Posted by Soldat I think his point is that what commonly would be called bad is looked at as good in the context of certain religions. In a present day example while we consider the beheading of children and mass persecution of people bad the radicals in ISIS believe they are doing good by ridding the world of those heathens.

Ahh, Ok. I was being western or whatever centric. Could we say that religion is neither good nor bad? I think that's where this ends up. But, if we say it is neither, then we are still left w/beheaded people which to me is bad, so something "good" to someone led to something "bad" to someone else. I don't want to fall back on "religion is bad," (though I think it is and I fear I'm being too simplistic).

I think I'm answering my own questions. I just don't want to be that guy who's all, "Religion is for idiots and sheep," knowing full well that very good people have done very good things in the name of religion.

Posted by splumer I think religion on an individual basis might be a positive; on a large scale it is a negative.

This is a profound thought, but I don't agree with it solely based on the fact that the opposite is also true --- it's completely in the eye of the beholder.

I think we make the mistake of generalizing "large scale" or better yet, "organized religion", as a homogenous group of people that have reached a consensus on values, tradition, and world-view --- these are things all organized religions have historically and contemporarily grapple with.

I would argue the only negative thing religion has brought us is also the only positive thing; it inspires people to think critically about what they value and rely upon in this life and in some cases, have faith in things they don't necessarily understand, whether they are religious or not. If those values are negative, it's not the religion's fault as much so as the people that chose to interpret faith in such a negative manner.

Just my 2 cents.

Posted by blitz I would argue the only negative thing religion has brought us is also the only positive thing; it inspires people to think critically about what they value and rely upon in this life and in some cases, have faith in things they don't necessarily understand, whether they are religious or not. If those values are negative, it's not the religion's fault as much so as the people that chose to interpret faith in such a negative manner. Just my 2 cents.

I would argue that you shouldn't have faith in something you don't understand. Further, I would also say you shouldn't have "faith" in anything.

That's a little depressing.

"Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"

Be an optimist! I'm sure you have faith in plenty of things, just not in any sort of rigidly-defined religious sense.

Faith is not exactly rational, but necessary for survival in most cases.

I wouldn't say that I understand with a huge degree of precision why a solid, which is mostly "not matter," is "solid," but I have to have faith that it is.

Of course, that faith would have been easy if I didn't know some facts that aren't plainly observable.


I also have faith that people are good. There is plenty of evidence to contradict that belief, but I prefer to live my life with that belief, because it helps shape my attitude and interactions with others, in what I think is a positive way.




Related: I saw someone looking for a definition of religion for a class this morning. I proposed "Religion is a system of beliefs so strongly held that they are resistant to actual experience, observation, or logic." Obviously the reasons for maintaining those religious beliefs tie into what I was saying above: They serve the believer in some way, even if they don't make sense to a rational observer.

Who said it's good?
Those who profit from it?

Posted by G to the Race I know it's a childish question. Sitting here reading about whoever is being killed in Iraq because they are aren't the same religion as the killers and I think WTF? For all the good religion does (charitable works, keeps some people alive for without it they would off themselves, got me good Italian bread on Sundays and Christmas presents too), it sure seems that millions use it for bad stuff as well. But why? If you understand the messages of the great Prophets or Gods, don't they all argue for peace? I simply don't get it happens.

Posted by DevilC Who said it's good? Those who profit from it?

Profit can be defined in many ways, right? I was raised Catholic, so religion being "good" is part of my being. I can't get away from that anymore than I can get away from my ideas about gender (not to poke that bear but it's just ingrained). And, since you are a provocateur I would add that our entire system benefits from viewing religion as a good--this is especially evident in the season we just entered, the Capitalist...err Christmas season.

religion/faith has never been about good. It has been about control. When the concept of god (or gods the further back you go) was created in the absence of any scientific reality. What was all that stuff in the sky at night? No one thought that they were other stars like the one during the day, so it was blamed on god, or again gods of the sky, of the night, etc.

As history went on, there were a few enterprising chaps that realized that hey wait a minute, these saps actually buy into this shit. Well, let's simplify the entire thing... Pantheism gave way to monotheism. Did you realize that the entire christian faith has been ripped off from the ancient egyptian? How's that for a big fat sack of laugh laugh laugh?

Anyways, so as time has gone on, faith is about control. Controlling what you think, how you think, what you do, how you reason (or choose not to) all in the name of an invisible friend. Faith and religion are bad because it takes an otherwise rational person and convinces them that the irrational is in the drivers' seat of the world around them.

that's it in a nutshell... i could probably do better on my case, but I just woke up and am eating tofu. Sue me.

Posted by Samurai religion/faith has never been about good. It has been about control. When the concept of god (or gods the further back you go) was created in the absence of any scientific reality. What was all that stuff in the sky at night? No one thought that they were other stars like the one during the day, so it was blamed on god, or again gods of the sky, of the night, etc. As history went on, there were a few enterprising chaps that realized that hey wait a minute, these saps actually buy into this shit. Well, let's simplify the entire thing... Pantheism gave way to monotheism. Did you realize that the entire christian faith has been ripped off from the ancient egyptian? How's that for a big fat sack of laugh laugh laugh? Anyways, so as time has gone on, faith is about control. Controlling what you think, how you think, what you do, how you reason (or choose not to) all in the name of an invisible friend. Faith and religion are bad because it takes an otherwise rational person and convinces them that the irrational is in the drivers' seat of the world around them. that's it in a nutshell... i could probably do better on my case, but I just woke up and am eating tofu. Sue me.

Let's specifically talk about Gnosticism and the destruction of the way of Jesus...

The Catholic Church as we know it was born when church leaders realized the Gnostic concept that everyone was a child of God (and thus could interact with Him at will, as per the Gospel of Peter) was going to destroy the Church hierarchy and thus, all the wealth they had (and will) acquire.

The moral here? Any religious belief is easily manipulated by the epic power struggle between the wealthy who benefit from religious hierarchy and the 'faithful' who are (for the most part) poor and dependent upon religion for meaning in life.

Nearly every inter-faith conflict (be it violent, spiritual, or academic) is driven by such a narrative.

Posted by blitz Nearly every inter-faith conflict (be it violent, spiritual, or academic) is driven by such a narrative.

but the end truth is that it's all bullshit aimed at the easily led.