There was some discussion of this topic on the "Introduction" thread, so I thought I'd start this thread to keep the first thread from going too far o/t.

I think cars play a huge (negative) role in city planning, and I think that any urban planning that has bicycles in mind is bound to be friendlier and saner.

If you have any thoughts on the subject, post them here. I would, but I'm too fried from work...

-N

"You just can't have cars, cars, cars 24 hours a day!"
-Richard M. Daley, mayor of Chicago

When I lived in Holland I rode my bike everywhere as did the majority of people. Almost every road in every city and town had bike lanes and even bike traffic lights some places. They say in holland that there are at least two bikes for everyperson in the country. Needless to say it is a very bike friendly country.

There is alway plenty of bike parking also, and the prefered bike seems to still be a vintage one or three speed junker with saddlebags.

Posted by xrahy They say in holland that there are at least two bikes for everyperson in the country...There is alway plenty of bike parking...

A friend of mine was in Holland last summer, and he had the unusual (for him) experience of having difficulty finding a place to lock up his bike. He would have to circle the block a few times before he found a space, much like a motorist does in the city.


My whole problem with car-oriented city planning can be summed up in an anecdote: A while back I had to spend a week in St. Louis for work. The expressway ran past my hotel window, and across the way I could see a strip mall with a movie theatre. One night I decided to walk to the theatre. After looking around for a bit, I realized the only way to get there would be to walk 3/4 mile down a high traffic street that had no sidewalk, go through the underpass, walk another 3/4 mile down another street without a sidewalk, and then run across a street without a crosswalk or stoplights. I ended up taking the route I described, and it wasn't nightmarish, but it could have been much easier.

From what I have observed, a lot of suburbs and "edge-cities" have taken this approach to urban design. It doesn't work.

-N

I am from Holland and am here to answer all your bike questions.

There's a bicicle magazine in Holland (= The Netherlands) which elects the most bicicle-friendly cities every year, and my hometown is usually in the high rankings: Most of the city center is car-free but allows bikes, and all main roads have bike lanes, sometimes even separated.

The town I live near to now is far worse. At a few big crossings, you have to wait twice for a traffic sign if you want to go left with your bike, and parts of the city center are all-pedestrian, meaning you can take your bike if you walk next to it, but you aren't allowed to park it.

Fortunately they're concidering reversing this as shopkeepers are noticing lost revenues (well at least in other towns. I hate this town anyway, I'll go away as soon as I can)

But my bike is the best daily transport for me. To my faculty it's about 15 min by bike, and I can park it in the courtyard.
By bus it's 1 min walk, +- 5 min wait, 10 min drive then 5 min walk.
By car would be 5 min drive but extremely expensive to pay for parking, or 7 min drive with free parking, but then some 15 min walk.
By foot it would be about 45 minutes.

I bike about everyday, only when my knee hurts or I have a flat tire I go by bus. I even bike at rain, because then the bus is crammed with smelly people and I hate that. (people smell bad when they've been waiting in the rain then get on a hot bus.)

More questions?

Tijmen

P.S. I have a bike with 3 gears and saddlebags.

Posted by IIVQ ...I have a bike with 3 gears and saddlebags.

What do you ride, an older Raleigh? Just curious...

I ride a Rivendell Redwood (road) and a Rivendell Atlantis (touring), and both bikes have saddlebags (which is kinda oddball in the US, too bad...)

Posted by NV What do you ride, an older Raleigh? Just curious... I ride a Rivendell Redwood (road) and a Rivendell Atlantis (touring), and both bikes have saddlebags (which is kinda oddball in the US, too bad...)

I don't have a clue ... honestly

*looks*

Union city allround superstyle

So the brand is union. I got an extra-large one because of my length (1.95 cm = 6'5")

I just have one bike which I do everything with: both road and offroad (which I shouldn't do ... but anyway)

Tijmen

The problem is, when you get a sprawling metropolis like Toronto, Unless you live Downtown already, bikes don't work. The Transit system for the surrounding suburbs is set up so all the suburbs link to the Toronto Downtown core, but they don't link to each other directly. So if you commute from one surrounding are to another, your choice is car or a 1.5hr+ Bus/Subway ride with at least 3-4 vehicle changes and transfers. Not to mention that some of the Suburbs are a different Transit system, so your fare is double.

My commute is long enough in a car, I don't want to spend an extra hour a day of my life on a bus, when I could be with my family an extra 300+ hours a year.

Uhhmm ... Couldn't you just *bike* from one suburb to another?

Posted by Civil Disobediance The problem is, when you get a sprawling metropolis like Toronto, Unless you live Downtown already, bikes don't work. The Transit system for the surrounding suburbs is set up so all the suburbs link to the Toronto Downtown core, but they don't link to each other directly...

Both of your points are good ones, and I agree that for a lot of folks, the only practical transportation option is a car. When I statrted this thread I was just thinking about how most urban planning is designed around the highway, not trains or buses or even bikes, and how that approach to urban design is maybe not such a great idea.

I'm not anti-car, not at all, I just wish we were not so damn dependant on them.

-N

Posted by IIVQ Uhhmm ... Couldn't you just *bike* from one suburb to another?

Too far for most... Example, I live north of the city in Vaughn, and work in Mississauga - you're talking 60+ km one way. I guess I could bike it, but I wouldn't have the time.

Posted by Civil Disobediance ...Example, I live north of the city in Vaughn, and work in Mississauga - you're talking 60+ km one way. I guess I could bike it, but I wouldn't have the time.

Yea, that's the thing--our urban areas are now so spread out that you pretty much need a car to get around. Asking someone to cycle 60km each way for their commute is asking an awful lot. Hell, asking someone to take the bus 60km each way is asking a lot!

The problem with talking about urban planning is that it's pretty easy to spot the problems, but fixing them is another thing. You can't just say "Okay lets squish Vaughn, Mississauga, and all of other Toronto's suburbs together next to the city and throw in some extra trains..." Implementing any sort of change would take massive government intervention, which is slow and costly and entails sacrafices that a lot of people would be reluctant to make.

-N

By the waay ... There were plans for a bicicle-only highway, complete with two-level crossings and fly-overs, between two major dutch cities, Amsterdam and Utrecht, which are about 25 km apart (wild guess).

But due to the economic recession, and worse, a governement that's completely focused on car use and holds back all bike and train money, I doubt it's being built.

Tijmen

Posted by IIVQ By the waay ... There were plans for a bicicle-only highway, complete with two-level crossings and fly-overs, between two major dutch cities, Amsterdam and Utrecht, which are about 25 km apart (wild guess). But due to the economic recession, and worse, a governement that's completely focused on car use and holds back all bike and train money, I doubt it's being built. Tijmen

That would be amazing to see...

and to ride on

Yes that too

Cars have played and continue to play a role in helping cities continue their outward sprawl. Just look at how the growth of the automobile and Interstate system in the US in the 50's helped to expand suburbia and "white flight." Not only do cars contribute greatly to sprawl but just look at the enovironmental and infrastructure costs they produce.

This is just the top of the iceburg, I could go on and on.

i think that at the moment there are probably still too many interests to stop this absurd car situation. Maybe the Big shots have fun looking out of the window seeing us poor slobs in line for hours, when they pass us with the blue car and the siren with no reason. I go around with public transportation, but i wish i had a car! it takes me two hours to get to work (+2 coming back!), against the one hour trip it would take me by car, althought the traffic. Here in Milan they keep telling us not to use the car, but how can you ask people to spend practically the same money, but standing up the whole trip and with all the smells and filth... it's just horrible to take the bus over here! Sometimes i stand at the station for almost one hour from one bus to the other! it's simply crazy to ask people to bear this!and at least once a month there's something going on between strikes or incidents or technical problems...

i think the best solution would be to find a job closer to home, what do you think about it?

Posted by shelise i think that at the moment there are probably still too many interests to stop this absurd car situation...i think the best solution would be to find a job closer to home, what do you think about it?

Well, yea, if you can. But many people can't.

The public transportation situation in Milan sounds quite shitty. I love how some city planners think: provide horrible bus and train service, and then blame the public when they choose to drive instead. Brilliant.

something absurd is happening: friday in Milan there will be a strike of public transportation: something about not being paid for the first three days of illness: the fact is that the company did pay this money, but the workers want to be in agreement with another company (i think the trains or planes). so friday all on foot... wonder why they don't organize i nice bike service over here too...

Posted by NV Well, yea, if you can. But many people can't. The public transportation situation in Milan sounds quite shitty. I love how some city planners think: provide horrible bus and train service, and then blame the public when they choose to drive instead. Brilliant.

The current proposal in the UK (and it's a serious one) is that all cars are fitted with a black box and then charged per mile for every journey. Journeys in cities could be as much as £1.50 (about $3) a mile, whilst a journey in the country would cost from a few pence per mile.

Unfortunately, the public transport alternatives are already struggling to cope with rising numbers. On the rail network, passenger numbers have increased significantly since privatisation, whilst bus services have experienced massive growth due to the introduction in some areas of free travel for people over 60.

There is a 10,000 mile long national cycle network (http://www.sustran...?sID=1090412763593) currently under construction.

SC