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UER Forum > Private Boards Index > Religious Discussion > Islam for idiots (Viewed 7782 times)
Harvestman 


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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 20 on 9/17/2014 1:57 AM >
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Posted by Mr_Fiend
I don't see any number of Muslims condemning what goes on in the middle east in the name of their holly book.


lol




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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 21 on 9/17/2014 2:45 AM >
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You could not be more wrong.
ISIS has Islam "right."
I am not complaining that you're not taking up their cause, but they are doing the right thing by your prophet.

Posted by blitz
ISIS is no different from Kony's "Christian" Lord's Resistance Army that had no support from the so-called "Christian" community. If the mainstream Muslim community believed in anything the speaker has stated here, then why isn't ISIS supported by mainstream Muslims, and why is ISIS at war with every Islamic state and extremist faction on Earth (with the notable exception of Boko Haram)?







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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 22 on 9/17/2014 1:50 PM >
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Posted by Mr_Fiend

And I could say the EXACT same thing to you regarding Christians.



I didn't make any generalizations about Christians (just the KKK), so I'm not sure how you can say this?

When you make statements about a religion and get all huffy puffy when people bring up faults in your own religion: that's called hypocrisy. I didn't start this conversation stating how "everything I know about (insert religion here) makes me hate it" like you did.

Posted by DevilC

You could not be more wrong.
ISIS has Islam "right."
I am not complaining that you're not taking up their cause, but they are doing the right thing by your prophet.



You could not be more wrong. If Muhammad (pbuh, for crying out loud) was all about the violent, oppressive practices ISIS is about, how come the FIRST Islamic state (created under his direct leadership) was essentially an agreement between Muslims, Jews, Christians, and Pagans which established security of the community, religious freedoms for all, the security of women, a tax system for supporting the community, and a non-religious judicial system for resolving inter-faith disputes? Not to mention it was the first constitution that guaranteed rights and basic freedoms to non-male, non-landing holding citizens? Do you think ISIS will rip the constitution from the prophet's page?

http://www.constit...adina_Articles.pdf

If ISIS is doing Islam "right" by the prophet, don't you think the majority of people that consider themselves Muslim would be joining it, or at least supporting it? Unless of course you don't think Muslim's understand their own religious history and the teachings of their prophet. It seems strange that the only people who believe ISIS is doing Islam "right" are people that have little, if any understanding of Islam and the prophet specifically.



[last edit 9/17/2014 1:57 PM by blitz - edited 4 times]

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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 23 on 9/17/2014 10:04 PM >
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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 24 on 9/17/2014 10:35 PM >
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Compared to what?




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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 25 on 9/17/2014 10:39 PM >
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Posted by MutantMandias
Compared to what?


Why is nobody willing to discuss Islam without trying to deflect to unrelated subjects?




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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 26 on 9/17/2014 11:11 PM >
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My point is that all religions lead to violence, hatred, and general awfulness. I don't understand the point of calling out points about Islam that are identical to Christianity as a way to criticize Islam, and then complain when someone points it out.




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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 27 on 9/18/2014 1:31 AM >
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I am not making generalizations.
This is not a discussion about Christianity.
I am agnostic anyway.
No hate for anyone.
Just commenting.
If you like living on the non-violent fringe of the Islamic death cult, enjoy that.
If you want to worship satan, enjoy that.
Whatever sky (or sea or tree or whatever) god makes you feel good, enjoy that.

Posted by blitz
I didn't make any generalizations about Christians (just the KKK), so I'm not sure how you can say this?

When you make statements about a religion and get all huffy puffy when people bring up faults in your own religion: that's called hypocrisy. I didn't start this conversation stating how "everything I know about (insert religion here) makes me hate it" like you did.


Because they're intellectually dishonest.
Any discussion about the Islamic faith must immediately turn to a discussion about, say, the Crusades.
We can NEVER EVER actually discuss what Islamic schools of jurisprudence actually TEACH and endorse as DOCTRINE.
For instance, the manual of Islamic law endorsed by Al-Azhar University in Cairo, states that a leader of Muslims “makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax.”
It cites Qur’an 9:29 in support of this idea:
“Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book-until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled.”
It is a ferociously violent and misogynistic religion.
Show me a mosque where women and men can pray together.
There isn't one.
Finally...
The sword matters. In fact, it's everything.

Posted by Soldat
Why is nobody willing to discuss Islam without trying to deflect to unrelated subjects?





[last edit 9/18/2014 1:44 AM by DevilC - edited 2 times]

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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 28 on 9/18/2014 3:43 AM >
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Posted by MutantMandias
My point is that all religions lead to violence, hatred, and general awfulness. I don't understand the point of calling out points about Islam that are identical to Christianity as a way to criticize Islam, and then complain when someone points it out.


They are just so identical, but for some reason I would be hard pressed to find poll results from Christians where most people find death to be the proper punishment for leaving the faith. I also have noticed a distinct lack of armies massacring their ways across a country in the name of spreading Christianity.





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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 29 on 9/18/2014 4:41 AM >
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Posted by Soldat


They are just so identical, but for some reason I would be hard pressed to find poll results from Christians where most people find death to be the proper punishment for leaving the faith. I also have noticed a distinct lack of armies massacring their ways across a country in the name of spreading Christianity.




It's not my fault that Christians aren't doing Christianity right anymore by turning their backs on God's divine stoning and slavery and subjugation, but that's a very recent development. Many American Christians are quite vocal about wanting to return to those ways, and to start turning Christian religious beliefs into law. And the policies and justifications of the people who make the calls about sending American soldiers to kill and die in the Mideast are deeply rooted in the goal of winning in the name of Judeo-Christian religions.

But, yeah, of course there are some evil motherfuckers in the world right now using Islam as a tool to warp minds and turn people into lunatics. And apparently I'm not allowed to note that Christianity has been the most popular tool for centuries to do the same, so I won't even mention it. Not once.

I just realized that the title of this thread is "Islam for idiots," which I guess is a jokey joke about simple explanations. Sorry I didn't get it, since it all really just came across as "Racism for idiots."

I had originally read the title as "Islam is for idiots," and that's something I can get behind. But that book would be part of a multi-volume series.




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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 30 on 9/18/2014 4:32 PM >
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Posted by DevilC

For instance, the manual of Islamic law endorsed by Al-Azhar University in Cairo, states that a leader of Muslims “makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax.”



How come I can't find any proof of this outside of the publications "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (And the Crusades)", "The Evils of Islam Uncovered", and "Why Muhammad Was Wrong"? lol.

I dunno, people whose knowledge of Islam is strictly rooted in what they've seen on the news or on the internet seem to be under the dellusion that terrorism, jihad, ISIS, and everything bad about Islam are the brainchild of mainstream Muslims. People will be people, and there will always be evil ones. There are over a billion Muslims in the world, is it such a shock to you that some of those people are evil and manipulate Islam to their personal benefit and to advance their agenda? Do you refuse to acknowledge that maybe there are just a few bad apples that ruin it for everyone else?

Or do you just chose to see the common denominator amongst these evil people as their Muslim faith... and not that maybe they're just batshit crazy? I'm sure you'll respond by saying "they claim they do this for Allah!"

No power-hungry motherfucker ever took control by just saying "i'm crazy and deserve to be in power", they manipulated factors they had control over to rig the system in their favor, and that's exactly what ISIS does. They use religion and ignorance of religion to scapegoat and fear-monger, just like the Nazis did. Do we still think all Germans are evil? Or did we realize that a few bad apples in Germany misled everyone else, even good people?

We're awfully quick here to accept gross generalizations. I guess because 1% of people who consider themselves Muslim are radical jihadists, we ought to ignore all the positives the other 99% contribute and declare Islam a "religion of violence". But by all means, continue assuming ISIS and terrorism in general are guided, and supported by, mainstream Islam. That's why mainstream Muslims across the US are stockpiling their RPGS, AK's, and Qu'rans in their mosques to launch jihad, take over the world, and massacre all Jews, Christians, and fuck it, all non-believers!

Right. Is it fair to judge a community of over 1 billion people based on the actions of less than 1%?



[last edit 9/18/2014 4:43 PM by blitz - edited 3 times]

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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 31 on 9/18/2014 8:12 PM >
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Posted by MutantMandias


It's not my fault that Christians aren't doing Christianity right anymore by turning their backs on God's divine stoning and slavery and subjugation, but that's a very recent development. Many American Christians are quite vocal about wanting to return to those ways, and to start turning Christian religious beliefs into law. And the policies and justifications of the people who make the calls about sending American soldiers to kill and die in the Mideast are deeply rooted in the goal of winning in the name of Judeo-Christian religions.

But, yeah, of course there are some evil motherfuckers in the world right now using Islam as a tool to warp minds and turn people into lunatics. And apparently I'm not allowed to note that Christianity has been the most popular tool for centuries to do the same, so I won't even mention it. Not once.

I just realized that the title of this thread is "Islam for idiots," which I guess is a jokey joke about simple explanations. Sorry I didn't get it, since it all really just came across as "Racism for idiots."

I had originally read the title as "Islam is for idiots," and that's something I can get behind. But that book would be part of a multi-volume series.


See, its all well and good to note that Christianity did some really mean stuff 1000 years ago in the middle ages when everybody as a rule across the globe was doing really mean stuff to each other. It is also probably worth noting however that while the Judeo-Christian west has managed to chill the fuck out over the past couple hundred years the Middle East and Islam has retained the behavior of 1000 years ago.

You can shout about the Salem witch trials in 1692 or the Medieval Crusades, but the thing is you are never going to get a poll of 80% of Christians support executing people leaving the faith. Or a poll where 20% of Christians say suicide bombings are A-okay and can be justified.


We get it, all Religious people are idiots and Christians did stuff just as bad as Muslims, but the difference is huge numbers of Muslims are still doing that horrific shit now in 2014.



[last edit 9/18/2014 11:24 PM by Soldat - edited 1 times]

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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 32 on 9/18/2014 8:17 PM >
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Posted by blitz


How come I can't find any proof of this outside of the publications "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (And the Crusades)", "The Evils of Islam Uncovered", and "Why Muhammad Was Wrong"? lol.

I dunno, people whose knowledge of Islam is strictly rooted in what they've seen on the news or on the internet seem to be under the dellusion that terrorism, jihad, ISIS, and everything bad about Islam are the brainchild of mainstream Muslims. People will be people, and there will always be evil ones. There are over a billion Muslims in the world, is it such a shock to you that some of those people are evil and manipulate Islam to their personal benefit and to advance their agenda? Do you refuse to acknowledge that maybe there are just a few bad apples that ruin it for everyone else?

Or do you just chose to see the common denominator amongst these evil people as their Muslim faith... and not that maybe they're just batshit crazy? I'm sure you'll respond by saying "they claim they do this for Allah!"

No power-hungry motherfucker ever took control by just saying "i'm crazy and deserve to be in power", they manipulated factors they had control over to rig the system in their favor, and that's exactly what ISIS does. They use religion and ignorance of religion to scapegoat and fear-monger, just like the Nazis did. Do we still think all Germans are evil? Or did we realize that a few bad apples in Germany misled everyone else, even good people?

We're awfully quick here to accept gross generalizations. I guess because 1% of people who consider themselves Muslim are radical jihadists, we ought to ignore all the positives the other 99% contribute and declare Islam a "religion of violence". But by all means, continue assuming ISIS and terrorism in general are guided, and supported by, mainstream Islam. That's why mainstream Muslims across the US are stockpiling their RPGS, AK's, and Qu'rans in their mosques to launch jihad, take over the world, and massacre all Jews, Christians, and fuck it, all non-believers!

Right. Is it fair to judge a community of over 1 billion people based on the actions of less than 1%?


People always make the claim that it is less than 1% of all Muslims who are radical and support violence, yet the Pew polls do not lie. I would say when you have up to 84% of Muslims in a country agreeing it is okay to KILL PEOPLE who leave the Muslim faith, or 25% of Muslims agreeing suicide bombings in the name of Islam can be justified it is a but more than judging "based on the actions of less than 1%".




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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 33 on 9/18/2014 9:03 PM >
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Posted by Soldat
People always make the claim that it is less than 1% of all Muslims who are radical and support violence, yet the Pew polls do not lie. I would say when you have up to 84% of Muslims in a country agreeing it is okay to KILL PEOPLE who leave the Muslim faith, or 25% of Muslims agreeing suicide bombings in the name of Islam can be justified it is a but more than judging "based on the actions of less than 1%".


If such statistics were accurate and from an un-biased source, that would be incredibly upsetting. I'm genuinely intrigued to see them, especially because hirabah (any illicit use of fear and coercion in public or private spaces for money or power, AKA terrorism) is strictly against Sharia law, contrary to what many think.

Although I have little in common with Saudi religious authorities (because they are the ultimate hypocrites) they just declared you're going to hell if you support terrorism in any way.

http://www.theguar...s-crime-sharia-law

Posted by Soldat

It is also probably worth noting however that while the Judeo-Christian west has managed to chill the fuck out over the past couple hundred years the Middle East and Islam has retained the behavior of 1000 years ago.



I would say Islam has lost, in several regards, rather than retained the behavior of 1000 years ago. An Islamic State as oppressive and hypocritical as Saudi Arabia or Qatar could have never existed without European support.

I'd urge you all to read this book: http://books.googl...20Esposito&f=false

You can't accurately judge a community by the actions of a few. If you still believe ISIS is a result of mainstream Islamic teachings, traditions, and history after reading the above source, then you obviously don't believe in the above statement, and that's a whole different issue which cannot be appropriately addressed in the context of this conversation.



[last edit 9/18/2014 9:07 PM by blitz - edited 3 times]

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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 34 on 9/18/2014 11:01 PM >
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Well, I guess one would have to debate and philosophize about what Islam "is."

The "Islamic State" or whatever you wanna' call it preaches/practices the very same Islam that the Saudis (and the Emiratis) have been spending $billions$ and $billions$ to spread all over the world for several decades.

It's laughable ... The notion that this vision/version of Islam is "un-Islamic" is an absurd politically-correct falsehood. It's a falsehood unsupported by the Qur’an, Muhammad’s example, Islamic law, Islamic tradition, and Islamic history.

There is nothing peaceful about the Islamic faith. There may be peaceful Muslims, but Muhammad as the perfect servant of God is a vile, violent pedophile. I see no redeeming qualities there.

Shia Islam is a step in the right direction, I suppose ... but that's a whole separate topic.




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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 35 on 9/18/2014 11:28 PM >
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Posted by blitz


If such statistics were accurate and from an un-biased source, that would be incredibly upsetting. I'm genuinely intrigued to see them, especially because hirabah (any illicit use of fear and coercion in public or private spaces for money or power, AKA terrorism) is strictly against Sharia law, contrary to what many think.

Although I have little in common with Saudi religious authorities (because they are the ultimate hypocrites) they just declared you're going to hell if you support terrorism in any way.

http://www.theguar...s-crime-sharia-law


They are from Pew, which is probably one of, if not the most, reliable and biased polling source out there. I posted the link earlier.

Go to about 2/3 of the way down to see the poll results for sever punishments for crimes like adultery and leaving islam and a bit lower for suicide bombing. All the poll results are interesting though.
http://www.pewglob...mas-and-hezbollah/





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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 36 on 9/19/2014 4:28 AM >
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Posted by Soldat


Go to about 2/3 of the way down to see the poll results for sever punishments for crimes like adultery and leaving islam and a bit lower for suicide bombing. All the poll results are interesting though.
http://www.pewglob...mas-and-hezbollah/




You do realize that Christianity is pretty clear that there should be stoning for adultery and even divorce, right?

But, yes, you probably won't find an average of 50% of Christians in first world countries saying that people who get divorced should be stoned to death.

So, the conclusion is that when two religions say the same thing, people in third world countries are significantly more "barbaric" in their interpretations than people in first world countries.

And as for suicide bombings, the question asked was if suicide bombings can ever be justified. I would say hell yes suicide bombings can be justified, and I guarantee that each and every one of you would agree if you were being honest. Make people's life shitty enough and suicide bombings become more and more justifiable for them. When China invades America, requires people to get permits to have babies, and outlaws alcohol, do you think there won't be Christian suicide bombers killing people for Jesus?

So, blaming Islam is just as stupid as blaming Christianity. The source of terrorism is always economic imbalance and exploitation of the weak by the rich. And of course, as always, Jesus agrees with me.




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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 37 on 9/19/2014 1:31 PM >
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Posted by MutantMandias


You do realize that Christianity is pretty clear that there should be stoning for adultery and even divorce, right?

But, yes, you probably won't find an average of 50% of Christians in first world countries saying that people who get divorced should be stoned to death.

So, the conclusion is that when two religions say the same thing, people in third world countries are significantly more "barbaric" in their interpretations than people in first world countries.

And as for suicide bombings, the question asked was if suicide bombings can ever be justified. I would say hell yes suicide bombings can be justified, and I guarantee that each and every one of you would agree if you were being honest. Make people's life shitty enough and suicide bombings become more and more justifiable for them. When China invades America, requires people to get permits to have babies, and outlaws alcohol, do you think there won't be Christian suicide bombers killing people for Jesus?

So, blaming Islam is just as stupid as blaming Christianity. The source of terrorism is always economic imbalance and exploitation of the weak by the rich. And of course, as always, Jesus agrees with me.


I think Christians actually are supposed to follow the teaching of a guy called "Jesus Christ" (I think that is where the Christ comes from in Christians, who knew), and not all of that Old Testament stuff so much. Turns out there is an entire second book full of stuff he supposedly said, which I hear is supposed to be a nicer. Heavier on the forgiveness and love, it seems after God had a kid he really mellowed out.


And yeah. I don't think unprovable hypothetical nonsense about how sure we all are Christians in the US would gladly blow themselves up for beer are really useful or accurate, especially when there are third world Christian shitholes in Africa where suicide bombing does not seem to be the next big thing. Also, your argument seems to be that in some extreme circumstance Christians may support it, which would fall into the "rarely category", so including that most countries in the Pew poll have Muslim support for suicide bombing around 50-60%, which is horrifying. Either way, I think you can agree in no country do 15% of Christians think suicide bombing is "often" acceptable.

You can also pretend it is a third world vs first world issue. To an extent I agree it is. But I also think Islam has help every single country in the Middle East and North Africa remain a third world state, so think of it as a chicken and the egg scenario.




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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 38 on 9/19/2014 4:19 PM >
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Posted by Soldat

Turns out there is an entire second book full of stuff he supposedly said, which I hear is supposed to be a nicer.


Posted by Jesus - Matthew 5:17-18
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.




Posted by Soldat
You can also pretend it is a third world vs first world issue. To an extent I agree it is. But I also think Islam has help every single country in the Middle East and North Africa remain a third world state, so think of it as a chicken and the egg scenario.

Yup, I agree, all religion, no matter what good intentions are involved, is ultimately used as a tool to destroy people. I approve the kicking all religious people out of America.




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Re: Islam for idiots
< Reply # 39 on 9/19/2014 6:57 PM >
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Posted by Soldat
You can also pretend it is a third world vs first world issue. To an extent I agree it is. But I also think Islam has help every single country in the Middle East and North Africa remain a third world state, so think of it as a chicken and the egg scenario.


I agree with your first statement, but I think European colonialism has had more of an impact than Islam in regards to holding down Middle Eastern states.

Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Kuwait were never colonized with European settlers or put under European mandates. Probably not a coincidence they weren't colonized and now happen to be the wealthiest Muslim majority-states.




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