Hey guys

I've got a whole whack of abandoned/derelict/forgotten locations that I'd like to index in a database somewhere to easier manage information/photos, share and corroborate, etc. Bingo-bango, UER seems like a half decent place to be doing that!

But what I've noticed when looking through a lot of the existing locations here is that there seems to have barely been ANY database activity for like...the past 5 years? I get the feeling that the reason this site doesn't seem to be used for the database so much is because OAP exists and people just post there instead, but then clearly the forum is still being used...? Frankly I don't really get what's going on with this community.

Anyways, OAP is out of the question for me.

So what I'm wondering is if anyone still uses this site for databasing, and furthermore is there any particular reason that I shouldn't be? Is there some unforeseen issue with using this place (inactive mods, site functionality etc) that I'm not privy to?

Also if anyone has any alternative ideas then I'm all ears.

Cheers!

You may not see it all cause you're not fm.

But yea. The database doesn't get as much active update to database. I for one am guilty of not putting mine into the database cause I'm lazy. Maybe I will update some later on.
But again I'm lazy. Hahaha so not sure when that will happen for me.

A lot of people don't use the database much anymore, from what I can gather. The prevailing thought seems to be that sites on the DB wind up getting tagged, trashed, sealed up, and so forth much faster than the ones that aren't.

I'm sure not everyone subscribes to this line of thinking, but many people do. I think the DB might get updated here and there in the different regions, it is probably more updated in some of them than in others.

I think the main appeal of the site (for me at least) is the forums, where we share explore photos and stories and communicate with each other for the purposes of linking up. I for one am a lot more willing to share site info with someone I've met in person and spent some time with than with strangers, whether they are Full Members or not. Just because UER trusts someone doesn't mean I do.

I'm not sure what OAP is, to be honest, but I've never heard of it before. I doubt it's a factor in the usage (or lack of usage) of the UER database. Maybe we are just more secretive of our locations than the folks over there are.

Lastly, I don't think you CAN make additions to the database until you are a Full Member. And it takes time and effort to become one. And as Wong Guy said above, Basic Members cannot see the full database, just locations that are marked as public.

Yeah it's kind of annoying that the UEDB itself has been abandoned since 2006, but I still try to contribute and I know there are still mods (Mike Dijital) who prowl it frequently.

From reading pages and pages of decade old threads it's clear that the opinion was that the DB was for documenting locations and sharing stories about them while the forums were for discussion and photos. As UER shifted more towards the photography the DB became forgotten.

Well that and issues about location sharing were brought up pretty soon after it opened.

I would like to get a moderator's perspective on why making locations is restricted to Full Members only. Personally I'd think that letting newer people to the site build the DB might help revive, or at the very least prevent newer users (like me) from spamming the site 40 with poorly taken photographs in a pop-up gallery.

The only argument I can see against is that they might not interact on the forums as much (though I still post photos in threads and create locations for them), and that the mods would have more to clean up (but who cares about their feelings?).

Posted by TunnelRunner33 I'm not sure what OAP is, to be honest, but I've never heard of it before. I doubt it's a factor in the usage (or lack of usage) of the UER database. Maybe we are just more secretive of our locations than the folks over there are.

OAP is another abandonment-sharing website. (mainly Ontario based, but has sections for other places as well). It's owned by fellow UER member Intrinsic. I'm not sure what OP's reason for not wanting to use it is - but I'm sure it's a valid one anyways. There have been plenty of complaints and problems brought up about the site in recent months.

As others have said, the DB is limited to "demolished locations only" until you become a full member. But even then, it's rarely updated 0 and if it is, the information isn't always accurate. If you have any locations you'd like to add, make sure it's pretty... Low-key? Not everyone who's a FM has good intentions, and there's very little accountability, so places can get absolutely ruined quite quickly. Which has happened again and again - but we can never prove it was someone on here.

A good first start would be to make threads and post photos of the places you go - and then the people who want to explore it can make the effort of messaging you. This will also fast-track you to getting FM.

In my opinion, lack of updates in DB represents a larger trend of UE getting outside of UER via facebook groups, instagram, other small forums. It is not as centralized as a decade ago. There has been a lot of dynamics in locations as well (because big and stable abandonments are almost all gone) and most explores are one-time deals. I'd almost say Id prefer the old way, when there was not as much public awareness of exploring and there was that covertness that is lacking these days. But that is just natural evolution of the hobby and internet in general.

Mods have discussed enabling basic members to create database locations. And ...

The database hasn't been abandoned.

Posted by strangePlaces In my opinion, lack of updates in DB represents a larger trend of UE getting outside of UER via facebook groups, instagram, other small forums. It is not as centralized as a decade ago. There has been a lot of dynamics in locations as well (because big and stable abandonments are almost all gone) and most explores are one-time deals. I'd almost say Id prefer the old way, when there was not as much public awareness of exploring and there was that covertness that is lacking these days. But that is just natural evolution of the hobby and internet in general.

Well said! I could not imagine what it must have been like to be on this forum ten years ago prior to everybody knowing about everything. It must have just felt so much more heated/ and special knowing your part of such a small group of like minded people. Now There are so many of us doing the same thing that people are more secretive about their projects, because they don't want everybody else to go and copy what they do. If everybody can easily explore the same thing, who gives a dam about it!

I don't necessarily think it has gotten "easier" to explore. With new breeds of security cameras, aware security guards and sensors and measures and publicity, urbex have become less of "how far can you go" and more of "how timely can you GTFO".
And that is quite unfortunate.

I am the owner of OAP.

There are really only two database sites for Ontario (and Canada) which happens to be UER and OAP.

I've spoken to Avatar-X numerous times, and we get along fine. I've always acknowledged that he's superior in the coding of ASP and I respect his work. In fact when I have had ASP questions in the past, I've asked AV for assitance. He is indeed the man.

Anyway... to be quite honest, the DB here has become too popular. That is, too many people have access to it. I've heard from graffiti artists that they actually use UER to find places to tag. I've also heard from graffiti artists on here that they "invite" other graffiti artists to come visit their localities to tag places.

The problem stems from the fact that as any site grows, you slowly add the undesirable element to your site. At this point I think that UER has too many people of questionable intent to function as a database. With over 40,000 members on UER, can you really vouch for each and every one of them?

On that note however, UER is an amazing forum. Anyone who's ever met me knows that I've opined the following: "If UER were to serve as strictly a database site, it would die. On the other hand if OAP were to serve as strictly a forum site, it too would die." We each offer the same services but with different strengths.

OAP maintains the stance that we limit who has access to locations. It's certainly not a perfect system... people sometimes fall through the cracks (taggers and thieves) but we have numerous levels of security that has seen numerous locations go for 1-2 years without any vandalism. As the number of people who have access to locations increases, we increase the bar to higher levels. As an example when our Full Members reached the 90+ numbers, we created a new level where only people I've met in person and trust, were given access.

The result is that people trust you, and are confident creating new content. This is not a UER or OAP issue, this is a human issue where any group of people that increases, brings more risks. You have to keep raising the bar as your member base grows. You can probably keep a secret between 10 people but not 1000 people.

Notwithstanding local kids, I feel that we certainly go the extra measure to weed out undesirables. We offer four levels of security rather than just a single FM level. This is no disrespect to AV-X, as I've said he is a superb coder and runs a great site. The UER DB however has become too risky to ever post locations to it that you don't want raided. What's needed is some higher form of scrutiny.

This isn't to say OAP is a 100% failsafe because it isn't. We've had taggers and thieves but in very low numbers. It's the safest means to share Ontario content online with other people in the hobby. The only other option (the safest one actually) is to not post addresses online at all.

Av-X and myself seem to be keenly aware of the politics of the hobby, and I'll be honest - OAP is not for everyone. You need to prove yourself, I have a low tolerance for bullshit, banned members have created campaigns of harassment and lies. People have made up stories about us getting places 'sealed up', one idiot prints out pages with propaganda such as "oap is a c**ksucker" and leaves them in locations. It's all part of the dramatics and bullshit that goes with managing people for several years.

Be that as it may, it comes down to this: UER has a select group of explorers who are not on OAP and who post exclusively to UER. They are good at what they do and they explore hard. OAP also has an exclusive group of people who are not on UER and who explore hard. There are also overlapping members, and from time to time one group of people shares with the other.

When people speak about locations and where to find locations, the abbreviations "UER" and "OAP" always come up. And I suppose that's something to be grateful for that we're both spoken about.

Alas.... the long and the short of it is any database in the world is only as good as the people who it consists of. As you grow, you can't vouch for everyone. As such, the UE DB is risky and this is why it's so outdated. There are just too many people who have access to these places that do bad things.

Because OAP tries to take a proactive measure and tackle these things before they become issues, yes, we've seen more people trust us with content. We involve the public in decision making, we allow members to take on roles such as approving locations and website maintenance. We go full out OCD on access levels and security... and it drives me batshit. We have new locations created almost every day of the year (minus some boring barns, etc.) - so we must be doing something right. There's always new places to explore thanks to a driven community of likeminded people - and it's perfectly fine that some people don't want to be a part of that community. We won't shed tears. Some people don't like UER, some people don't like OAP. As I said, to have us both mentioned to me is a form of flattery.

This isn't meant to be a promotion. It's meant to be an eye opener. You have to be proactive when your member base becomes too large. If you don't, you lose the faith of your members.

I hope that this post has somewhat answered your question.

As for why most locations seem to be outdated as of 2006 or so, that in itself is another mystery. I think that the last few years have been difficult ones for exploring. There's more publicity on the hobby, more arsons in Ontario, more awareness of thefts and as a result contributors are becoming self aware of what they're putting out there.

(Too long/Didnt read: Any and all database sites are risky.)

[Edited for clarity]

I have noticed the database having a lot of out of date places that have long been torn down, and have been trying to update ones I find. I think the issue is the amount of vandalism that can happen. If you find a new place, you can be very reluctant to tell anyone, plus some people are just too busy to update the database with everything they find.

I do the sorting of new database entries, and old ones that have new stuff added to them that needs to be validated

on average, there is 1 to 2 brand new entries a day , and 5 to 10 modifications to existing entries per day. but keep in mind thats for the entire earth lol, but more than not I see ALOT of Texas, and scattered canadian locations

the database does boast "Total locations: 9848"


but yeah the database was invented at a time when webrings were prevalent and im pretty sure google didnt exist.. at the time it made sense for a database, now google has kinda made the database obsolete , also UER isnt getting the traffic is was in say 2005, I still think its a fun thing to flip through, and you do find some gems, but the thing that keeps the database alive is updating the entries, and aside from people loading galleries, its rare

It would help a lot to allow more people to contribute.
It should be easier to become full member. I can understand new members not having access to parts of the site, but once someone has been here for at least two years, I think you can trust them to not screw around, and if they do, you just restrict access again.

Wow! Well I'm certainly glad my question seems to have spawned a discussion that is a lot closer to many of your hearts than I had expected! Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply!

Firstly, I was under the impression that I was posting to the Ontario subforum...actually tbh I don't really know what the deal with that is, but just to be clear this is pretty specifically in regards to Ontario locations.

As catdog23 had mentioned, I have also noticed the growing trend towards "streaming" of information rather than the storing and organizing. Who wants to digitally store things in the world with the NSA? What place does a database have in the world of Google and Snapchat? I may disagree with the principle of the movement, but I can't deny that it isn't practical for the world we now live in.

But on the other hand OAP has actually been doing really well in terms of their database upkeep and community. It's unfortunate that it's not a good fit for my work and explorations otherwise, but meh. It atleast goes to show that the databasing community isn't dead here!

Anyways, in some ways many of you have answered my question, but at the same time I feel as though the conversation was steered towards this general feeling of paranoia that seems to subsist throughout the urbex community. Perhaps I should try and be a bit more specific.

What I'm finding is that in some ways this site doesn't necessarily meet my specific needs - OAP even less-so - and so basically I'm stuck trying to decide whether my time contributing information would be better spent here where a community, database and toolset has already been established, or for me to just create my own personal database more specific to my needs and share/corroborate information via Social Media & Forums (e.g. here).

The main benefit I see from using UER is for centralization of data as well as for posterity and documentation purposes. It may be that a location has since been demolished or vandalized, but the fact that I can easily explore what the place appeared as upto 10 years ago is absolutely gold as far as I'm concerned. That can never be replaced if I just create my own personal database.

I put a lot of research into the locations I visit and aside from just not wanting to see my my hardwork lost to the annals of time, I also subscribe to the notion that we shouldn't be re-inventing the wheel over and over again. If I've already dropped 30$ looking up the Land Title or spent hours in a library digging through journals, I don't see any reason for anyone else to have to do the same for that same location.

But this is all heavily relying on UER being maintained as a database. If the database / site dies, my work dies with it, and in that case I would have been much better off just proping this project up on my own shoulders instead. I think this is probably the main crux of my query here - by coming here am I contributing to a shrinking void, or an expanding base? By the sounds of it this may be more location based than anything, so if someone with access to Ontario locations could fill me in on how active THAT portion of the database is, that would be super cool!

On the flip side I don't want to become an island of data that becomes difficult to find for those whom it may interest, which is basically how I see sites like Freaktography. It's happened one to many times where I'll just be perusing some random personal blog and through absolute bat-shit insane luck come across a property I've already been researching and have a keen interest in. Centralized databases like UER and OAP make it so that won't happen as often which I think is great.

So yeah. I sort of feel as though many of the answers are aimed at someone who is interested in getting access to the database, but what I'd really like are answers aimed at someone who wants to contribute. I have easily over 50 demolished locations I'd like to document somewhere, so this whole "basic members can only do demos" isn't that much of a hindrance...I just want to be sure I'm not wasting my time in doing so.


In regards to this bigger discussion around the secrecy of locations...why not just make the physical location invisible to everyone? I get the database needs to it match locations up so obviously the Admin and potentially mods will have access to it, but why does anyone else need to? The entire secrecy/membership shit seems like a whole lot more of a mess than it's worth.

edit: Hole-E-Shit this got long.
TLDR: Is the Ontario database here bleeding out? Is there a point to me pouring hours upon hours into updating it, or is it just throwing things into a void?

I'd recommend starting your own website, if that's what you're interested in. Then allowing people to request the coordinates or addresses, if they so desire. That way you can be able to share your findings, without giving up everything to anyone who comes across it. Then you can judge if the person would be someone you could trust in sharing the information or not.

Posted by blaekly But on the other hand OAP has actually been doing really well in terms of their database upkeep and community. It's unfortunate that it's not a good fit for my work and explorations otherwise, but meh. It atleast goes to show that the databasing community isn't dead here!

I appreciate the sentiment.

Operating any database site is a challenge. You have to continually be one step ahead and attempt to resolve so many petty disputes it's exhausting at times. If people feel that you aren't taking their concerns seriously, they stop contributing. Trust is essential on all levels.

I believe this is why we've seen an exponential growth over the years. UER also has it's challenges but more so in the forum which is the hub of activity. The size of their memberbase also shows exponential growth.

Fortunately both sites are gifted with volunteers who deal with most of the muck work to make things better for all.

It sounds to me that you'd be unhappy with either database approach and a personal site might be best. There's actually a third DB site for Ontario explorers but it allows open access without any user accounts and if you want to see a place gutted within a week, that's the way to go.

It's difficult to give you any solid advice because you've so far not shown us any of your work to determine where it might be best suited. Your very first post was a critique of OAP, the second post a critique of both OAP/UER sites and Freaktography. Post some of your work and I think you'll be in a position to receive better feedback from members. So far we've nothing to go on.

Posted by blaekly In regards to this bigger discussion around the secrecy of locations...why not just make the physical location invisible to everyone? I get the database needs to it match locations up so obviously the Admin and potentially mods will have access to it, but why does anyone else need to? The entire secrecy/membership shit seems like a whole lot more of a mess than it's worth.

Populating a database should have it's rewards too. If members are denied the location details, you're basically creating an art show. When you allow people to also get something back (in way of coordinates) you allow them to enjoy the property, you allow them to add their own galleries to other people's places, you allow them a day of roadtripping.

The larger issue is how to selectively grant GPS information to people you might not know in person while maintaining people's trust. This is going to be the major obstacle in any sharing/contributing online community.

As I previously posted, you have to constantly be a step ahead of the dynamics and continue to try to keep people's faith. Sometime's you can, sometimes you cannot.

Secrecy and membership might seem like a lot of mess, and it is. But this is why it's necessary...

click to view	click to view	click to view	click to view

click to view

click to view

Cheers!

Posted by blaekly On the flip side I don't want to become an island of data that becomes difficult to find for those whom it may interest, which is basically how I see sites like Freaktography.

My website is not meant to be a tool for other people to find the locations that I visit, it is a personal project for me and it is there for people who are interested in the work and subject matter, to kill time and to just enjoy the photos, read the stories and move on. It is in NO WAY meant to be an "island of data" for others to pilfer through and carelessly share with their friends.

However, if someone is resourceful enough to figure out where any of my locations are located, I applaud them for doing so and look forward to seeing how they capture the place.

I used to enjoy adding galleries and locations to database sites for others to find, until I saw what it was doing to so many great and unique locations, so I changed my attitude...as did many others. There was a sense of pride in how many places you could get under your belt and it was always fun to see others posting their take on the locations. But that all changed when too many loose lips sank too many great ships, and I admittedly sunk a few ships myself.

You can take great pride in your own work without telling the world how to find it, you can create your own personal and private map in google with links to your folder system, you can make a website to share the stories and the photos but for the love of Pete, why would you want to do all that work on some great locations only to allow that location to be seen an accessed by vandals, scrappers and treasure hunters....they are out there looking just as hard as we are, and they are winning.

Anyway, to each their own, this is my opinion and I'm sure it will be challenged and disagreed with by many.

Just please, whatever you do - be smart and be careful.



EDIT - You see, I just found you on Instagram and I was immediately disappointed in the fact that you are naming your locations in almost every post that you can and also naming the city that they are in and in a few cases the street.

You might not want to do that anymore.

Posted by Freaktography You can take great pride in your own work without telling the world how to find it, you can create your own personal and private map in google with links to your folder system, you can make a website to share the stories and the photos but for the love of Pete, why would you want to do all that work on some great locations only to allow that location to be seen an accessed by vandals, scrappers and treasure hunters....they are out there looking just as hard as we are, and they are winning.

Quoted.

For truth.

Posted by Freaktography EDIT - You see, I just found you on Instagram and I was immediately disappointed in the fact that you are naming your locations in almost every post that you can and also naming the city that they are in and in a few cases the street. You might not want to do that anymore.

People don't seem to understand that there are bad people out there who have the most ill intentions whether that means arson, vandalism, theft or all of the above. One only needs to look at the Cat Lady Houseto see what the free flow of information does to a place. This place was supposedly mint a year ago...


story time by Bumblebee, on Flickr

Your word is all you have in this life, if you can't keep a location to yourself what makes you think others will trust you with theirs if at all?