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UER Forum > UE Tutorials, Lessons, and Useful Info > How to detect bullshit by Officer (Viewed 4082 times)
Magnificent7 


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How to detect bullshit by Officer
< on 1/28/2020 3:02 AM >
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Can you tell me what the crime is? Says nothing, stares blankly or mumbles while figuring out what he just said. If those were the responses you are a victim of bullshit by officer. You don't owe anybody anything, you cant really pay a debt to society if you don't owe them anything.

1. DO NOT RUN from an officer

2. Play it cool

3. Let them search you

Do those 3 things you will do just fine.




FreeLee 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 1 on 1/28/2020 3:25 AM >
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Your advice is sound, but could use some fleshing out.

This video is 45 min long but i think worth the time investment. BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters
https://www.youtub...A&feature=emb_logo

Here is some information I read from a post on this site, its a good read. Its advice from an actual lawyer.
http://www.uer.ca/...d=1&threadid=41166


Play it cool? I like specific behaviors. I had a run in with a LEO recently. Play it cool for me was (and I was prepared)

I called out to the officer to let him know I was close by
Open body language, arms to my side with hands visible
Eye contact and complied with his requests
Nothing on me that could be bad, lock picks, pry bar, spray paint etc
Had a camera on me. It does not work lol, got it at a dollar store for $5 I use my iphone currently. Its for show but supports my claim to be exploring.

I am a new guy around here so don't take my advice as gospel.

I have also engaged a couple police officers around town at appropriate times. just had a conversation with them about urban exploration and what they think about it. One was a resource officer at my kids school.

That way you are not all freaked out by talking to a cop. And you get a feel for policy.

B





Darendor 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 2 on 1/28/2020 4:02 AM >
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Hm.

I've yet to be caught "in the act", as it were, by a police officer. So what I say might not seem extremely credible.

That said, I'm a reasonably accurate study of human nature and I have a feel for reading people/situations.

I think that a bit of research before conducting an explore is always in order; specifically, how far away is the closest police station and, therefore, what might the likely minimum response time be should you have the misfortune of setting off a (silent) alarm. Also worth considering is how frequently and how close by traffic is, whether it's foot traffic or vehicle traffic.

I would suggest that the instant you suspect (or confirm) a law enforcement officer has arrived on site you immediately discard any exploring tools on hand, be they crescent wrenches, pry bars, lockpicks, knives, etc. You are probably OK to keep a flashlight unless it's a metal one; if so chuck it as well. You can always claim to be exploring with your phone's flashlight app.

Speaking of phone, you may want to set it to "Airplane Mode" or the non-iOS equivalent prior to arriving on the site, only turning it back off once you're well clear of the site. If for some reason they subpoena your phone records after you've pleaded not-guilty and it was pinging cell towers the entire time you were there, it will work against you.

Stay calm and as noted be truthful...-ish. If they don't find anything on you that could be considered B&E tools then you're that much less likely to be charged with a serious offence.

Now, if the cop places you under arrest you should ask immediately "what is the charge?"... if they don't tell you, don't argue with them. You won't win unless there's a witness or 2 to back up your version of events after the fact. Co-operate and when you're in custody at the police station you can demand to know the charge.


But the best defence against being caught UEing is to not be caught UEing. Research the site, observe what security is there (patrolled, electronic, both, none?) and then you can roll the dice.




Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
- Leonardo da Vinci
SirTopRamen 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 3 on 1/31/2020 3:25 AM >
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To add to the post above, also don't wear boots or face masks if you don't need to at that location. I used to always wear boots to every spot I went to and I was caught once and the first thing the cop said was let me see your boots.

If you just look like an innocent rando that happened to come across this place randomly, you are much more likely to just be let go with a warning.

And like pretty much everyone else has said, always comply with an officer. If a cop already caught you, the worst thing you can do is try to be the tough guy.

I was cuffed in the back of a car once with some friends after being caught and we spent the entire time actually joking with the officers up front and they just drove us back to our car and told us not to come back.



So just be cool guys.




Howie Dunnet 


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Avoid attention and get lost in plain sight.

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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 4 on 1/31/2020 9:33 PM >
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I would only add that you should, if possible, perform casual surveillance at least three times on the location you plan to explore. This way you might be able to see a routine for any security patrols or law enforcement.

Another thing is don't be a "geardo" i.e. have all types of gear. I hardly ever wear all black or a hoodie when I am exploring.

Act natural. I have had close calls, but usually if I see anything remotely suspicious I freeze. Security folks are drawn to movement.




FreeLee 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 5 on 2/1/2020 5:01 PM >
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Posted by Howie Dunnet
I would only add that you should, if possible, perform casual surveillance at least three times on the location you plan to explore. This way you might be able to see a routine for any security patrols or law enforcement.

Another thing is don't be a "geardo" i.e. have all types of gear. I hardly ever wear all black or a hoodie when I am exploring.

Act natural. I have had close calls, but usually if I see anything remotely suspicious I freeze. Security folks are drawn to movement.


How have I never heard the term "geardo"? That is spectacular. Great advice too.




blackhawk 

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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 6 on 2/1/2020 5:22 PM >
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Posted by FreeLee


How have I never heard the term "geardo"? That is spectacular. Great advice too.


Cops like good tactical gear... hell some even admire it.
It's what you're doing that concerns them.
Best way to keep a LEO from copping an attitude is to not cop one yourself.
Effective communication is important, but let them ask the Qs.
&
Sometimes when they say they will help you out... they literally mean it.

Each situation is different and fluid.
You need to stay calm and think before you speak.
Don't be a chatty cathie.
Don't be evasive; answer Qs as direct and straight forward as possible.
Lie only by omission and only if you must.

Be compliant especially if arrested... or things will get harder.
Cops gauged you by your level of compliance or lack of.
NEVER called a cop "boss"... prison slang.




Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
Abby Normal 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 7 on 2/1/2020 6:10 PM >
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Posted by blackhawk


Cops like good tactical gear... hell some even admire it.
It's what you're doing that concerns them.
Best way to keep a LEO from copping an attitude is to not cop one yourself.
Effective communication is important, but let them ask the Qs.
&
Sometimes when they say they will help you out... they literally mean it.

Each situation is different and fluid.
You need to stay calm and think before you speak.
Don't be a chatty cathie.
Don't be evasive; answer Qs as direct and straight forward as possible.
Lie only by omission and only if you must.

Be compliant especially if arrested... or things will get harder.
Cops gauged you by your level of compliance or lack of.
NEVER called a cop "boss"... prison slang.


Some good points there. There is a Catch-22 when dealing with LEOs. If they decide to arrest you they will read you the Miranda Warning, but what happens before that?

Police can ask you some basic questions to determine your identity and what your activities are. That's where rub comes in. What you say PRIOR to Miranda Warning is still admissible in court! They consider it a voluntary statement. Soooo, be careful what you say any time you have an interaction with the police.

I'm not suggesting that you be evasive, but don't volunteer any additional information that you aren't directly asked.

There are a lot of videos on YouTube on how to interact with police. Most of them give bad advice. Keep in mind that some officers will lie to you hoping that you will open up and give them additional information. Some will intentionally misstate what you said in order for you to explain in greater detail. I work with a lot of LEOs and they vary from helpful, honest officers, all the way to everyone is guilty until proven innocent.

If there are a group of you, they will generally separate you and speak with you individually, then compare stories. It might not hurt to have a talk with your team before you head out exploring. One smart-ass in your group can get the whole bunch of you in trouble.

Take another look at BlackHawk's advice.

Abby









"Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem." Ronald Reagan
RescueMe1060 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 8 on 2/1/2020 6:20 PM >
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the title of this thread already tells me this kid (OP) is going to be arrested some day




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Howie Dunnet 


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Avoid attention and get lost in plain sight.

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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 9 on 2/1/2020 8:29 PM >
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Posted by Abby Normal

Police can ask you some basic questions to determine your identity and what your activities are. That's where rub comes in. What you say PRIOR to Miranda Warning is still admissible in court! They consider it a voluntary statement. Soooo, be careful what you say any time you have an interaction with the police.

I'm not suggesting that you be evasive, but don't volunteer any additional information that you aren't directly asked.

There are a lot of videos on YouTube on how to interact with police. Most of them give bad advice. Keep in mind that some officers will lie to you hoping that you will open up and give them additional information. Some will intentionally misstate what you said in order for you to explain in greater detail. I work with a lot of LEOs and they vary from helpful, honest officers, all the way to everyone is guilty until proven innocent.

If there are a group of you, they will generally separate you and speak with you individually, then compare stories. It might not hurt to have a talk with your team before you head out exploring. One smart-ass in your group can get the whole bunch of you in trouble.

Take another look at BlackHawk's advice.

Abby




True story. Anything you say to a cop is admissible in court, and being at a location is reason enough for suspicion.



[last edit 2/1/2020 8:30 PM by Howie Dunnet - edited 1 times]

tx3000 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 10 on 3/13/2020 9:06 PM >
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Law enforcement is trained to work off of and around anything you say. So assume they're always using BS. It's why you say thanks but no thanks officer I don't answer questions.




Explorer Zero 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 11 on 3/13/2020 10:38 PM >
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Posted by tx3000
Law enforcement is trained to work off of and around anything you say. So assume they're always using BS. It's why you say thanks but no thanks officer I don't answer questions.


You must know a lot of LEOs if you know something like this. Am I right?




RescueMe1060 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 12 on 3/13/2020 11:47 PM >
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Ive never had any problems with LEO's, must be my white privilege




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blackhawk 

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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 13 on 3/14/2020 1:45 AM >
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Posted by Howie Dunnet


True story. Anything you say to a cop is admissible in court, and being at a location is reason enough for suspicion.



LEOs even the FBI generally don't care about explorers as long as you control the heat and don't commit dumb ass felonies or high level misdemeanors; federal trespass, trespassing in an active school/hospital/patient or student housing, arson, scrapping, theft and vandalism.

They have better things to do.
High profile sites where people get busted regularly... well you knew the deal.
Even at these sometimes you can contact the police to report scrappers, arsonists or vandals without repercussions.
Maybe even a free pass for later explores as what happen with me at Pennhurst.
The state police ignored my presence for years because I helped them tag a scrapper. Sweet.
Some cops will help you, even give you information or access to sites if you handle yourself right.

Most times LEOs will cut you lose if you didn't go too crazy.
-Control the heat- to avoid getting burned.




Just when I thought I was out... they pulled me back in.
tx3000 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 14 on 3/14/2020 4:32 PM >
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Posted by Explorer Zero

You must know a lot of LEOs if you know something like this. Am I right?

Not sure what that means or is supposed to mean.

I can tell you that I took a year of criminal justice.





everlastingslinky 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 15 on 5/2/2020 7:34 AM >
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Years ago, a buddy and I were drinking a couple of beers at a construction site down the street from my house. Very low security...future med offices. We were sitting on second floor, which had a nice view. We saw headlights move across the wall in front of us...meaning a vehicle was pulling up somewhere behind us.

By the time we got to were we could look out towards the vehicle, it had already parked. We look down to see a cop getting out of his car, head on a swivel. Shit!

The only convenient way from second floor to first was the front lobby stairs, and he was about to walk through front door! We hadnt done anything wrong, other than kids drinking beer and trespass, but still.

We retreated back into second floor and climbed into the ceiling rafters and waited. 10 minutes later, Mr. SJPD came waling down the hallway we were just inches above. We were shitting our pants like a six month old on taco Tuesday! Down the hall he went, flashlight scanning back and forth. a minute later, as he passed by us again, my buddy reached out like he was going to snatch the cops hat off his head.

Holy fuck!!! Of course, he didn't grab the cops hat, but for a second, I thought the world would end. The cop left, we each went home, now totally sober, and had a great laugh telling the story the next day at school.

Good times.




-Nothing- 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 16 on 4/12/2021 6:02 PM >
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https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE

Great video by a lawyer about what to do when you get arrested/charged with something.




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roue_libre 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 17 on 4/13/2021 12:12 PM >
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Posted by -Nothing-
https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE

Great video by a lawyer about what to do when you get arrested/charged with something.


That is indeed a great video, thanks for sharing it!

I also came across it a couple years ago and I still think about every once in a while. This lawyer is a funny guy, a great presenter and if I ever got into serious trouble (not that I would), I might like someone like him to represent me. Assuming I could ever remotely afford it.

But, there's sound legal advice and then there's everything else, to wit:

- a near infinity of circumstances, including: type of location, time of day/night, legal jurisdiction, aggravating factors such as certain tools or gear, and of course - all too often and most deplorably -, racial, gender and ageist issues.

- your intuition, quick-wittedness and social engineering skills (a.k.a. ability to bullshit)

- their intuition, perceptiveness, ideology and ability to bullshit (a.k.a SocEng)

When it matters, you need to evaluate almost instantly how to credibly explain your predicament without incriminating yourself - or being betrayed -. Somehow, develop rapport with your would-be tormentor and get them onto your side. It's sometimes impossible, and stakes are high.

Sometimes, throwing a LEO a small bone can get you off the hook for perhaps more serious, potentially trumped-up accusations. Sometimes, that small "confession" is all they need to nail you like they were always trying to do, and you fell right into their trap and did their job for them.

What separates good LEOs from bad ones is how adept they are at getting people to rat themselves and their friends out... without realising it. On the other hand, what separates decent people from shitty people is that the former will do whatever they can and sometimes even bend the rules a little to ensure that other decent folks who are only engaging in harmless fun aren't unduly or unfairly punished. (See how much subjectivity is involved?) The latter [shitty people] will fuck anyone over, any chance they get... by hook or by crook.

It's always a roll of a dice - and sometimes they're loaded.

It helps to be as near beyond reproach as you can to begin with. If you've got nothing to hide or fear, just act like it. Be polite, friendly, empathetic but not overly familiar. But if I ever did get arrested, then I'd really STFU. But that's just me. Take the lawyer's advice, or don't take it. Just don't take mine!




There's never been a better time to explore...
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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 18 on 4/13/2021 2:56 PM >
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"No disrespect to you personally but I invoke my right to remain silent, this conversation is over."




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Kurt 


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Re: How to detect bullshit by Officer
< Reply # 19 on 8/26/2021 4:45 PM >
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Any time I have had run-ins with LEO it's turned out fine. I just play it cool and stay relaxed. Hell, I got busted at a state hospital in New York and we ended up walking through the building with the cops. In New Jersey, they busted us outside another state hospital and they talked to us for a while and the chief gave us free rein of the campus for the day and instructed other officers to not patrol the campus. they even waited for our friends to show up and made sure they knew where to hit the tunnels to meet up with us. The key to the 7 or 8 interactions I can remember having over the years with police was to remain calm, show respect, yes/no sir/ma'am/officer, etc and just not be a dick to them. I know some LEOs are dicks but the vast majority aren't if you aren't to them. Plenty of people here will disagree with that but that's been my experience with police in multiple states and two foreign countries.

I have never been arrested for exploring. I have been detained and escorted off of the property and there were times when I probably should have been arrested but playing it calm and cool led them to not even bother to check my ID or search my bag. If I were to be actually arrested, I wouldn't say much of anything aside from basic info (name, etc) and then seek the advice of my legal counsel.

Those are just my opinions based on my personal experiences over the years.




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