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UER Forum > UE Main > Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers (Viewed 7623 times)
Urban Downfall 


Location: Montréal - Qc
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 538 likes




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Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< on 12/7/2021 10:06 AM >
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Hey everyone,

Where do i start...

Three weeks ago, me and my explore partner Decayed_State came to the US and got caught, shot at, assaulted, robbed and charged with a felony, twice in the same week and are under investigation.

This is the story im gonna tell, both to seek your help and to bring awareness about never take for granted how well a situation seems to be.



I'm a fairly low profile guy and don't post most of my work, either here or on social media.
I also never ask for help and manage my problems on my own.

Most of you know me as the Broomman ,for my photo series that i update here, or for the annual meetup i'm holding each year in Montreal.

That being said, i'm really doing more than only broom pictures, i document professionally the locations i visit, inside out.

I have been actively practicing urban exploration for 13 years now and I have always known the risks and taken my responsibilities facing off the multiple arrests or charges brought against me. Fortunately, after more than 400 places explored I have never had to face justice except once in Canada, which ended in absolution, therefore complete withdrawal of charges.

Having said that, I could never have predicted recent events.
Many know me, I take precautions, I don't break anything, I don't steal anything, I do everything in the rule of art.
(I sometimes take papers but it stops there)
I like to think i am a fairly seasoned and skilled explorer who have values and a strong work ethic.

Even imagining the worst or basing myself on decades of experience and history from other explorers, we couldn't have predicted how it turned out.
Normally, with a little social engineering, we get out of 99% of situations with a warning or an arrest without legal action.
Me and my exploring partner Decayed State, waited for the borders of the United States to open for more than a year and a half to do what was going to be our best and biggest road trip ever.

So I'll tell you in detail the turn of events and why I'm going to need your help.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

We had planned about 60 locations in over 25 states, from Vermont to Louisiana up to Kansas.

The first week went well and with no failures.
The next place we had to explore is a decades-long abandoned theater.

We had invited 3 friends residing in the US who had not explored it.
In the morning we go there and we enter.
We see that the ground floor of the theater and the old lobby are now used as storage for cars and other things bunched up, probably belonging to the owner of the adjacent clothing stores.
So we decide not to go to these parts, anyway there is nothing to shoot there.

About 2 hours pass and our friends have finished shooting so they decide to go out, they have to open and close a garage door.
We had arranged for them to be really careful and take a good look before going out, which they do.
Unfortunately just as they come out they hear a voice from inside yelling at them that they are not allowed to be there.
They continue walking in the street, the person is not following them.

So they text us what has just happened, me and Ludo are at the top of the theater at the level of the projection room.
After a few minutes our fear becomes reality, the lights on the ground floor come on.
We are therefore going to hide in the projection room, hoping that people will leave.

A couple minutes pass and the lights go out, we wait a bit and we end up slowly descending from the projection room and waiting again, behind the chairs at the highest level.

A few moments later we see a woman come out of the center of the side stairs, which run the length of the theater to the bottom floor.
Seconds later, she sees us and starts screaming, completely petrified, as if she saw a ghost. She screams in a way I can't describe, so loud and panicked.
For several seconds she just screems while looking at us, without moving, then she starts to say "they are there!", "They have guns!" "quick!" to someone else downstairs.

We, as soon as we saw her, was saying calmly, trying to pierce her cries, "don't worry", "we are photographer, don't worry!", "Sorry", "don't be scared, we are unarmed ".

I light myself up using my flashlight, with my arms in the air, showing her my camera so that she sees that I am not threatening but nothing helps, she still screams loudly.
I move sideways slowly towards her, who hadn't moved, so that she can see me well, so I come up to the stairs facing her, she is about 60 feet in front of me.

A guy emerges from behind her just as angry and screaming.

I barely have time to see him and say once again "not to worry" that the guy raise a gun and shoots me at point blank range, he's face to face with me.

I see the flash and in my head nothing makes sense, I tell myself, in like slow motion (but why does he shoots me with a pellet gun ?!). It's like it wasn't a real option for my brain that I could have been shot.
This all goes in micro seconds before I realize that I really just dodged a bullet in the face.
I don't have much time to run away or move when the guy runs up the stairs towards me and orders us to get down on the ground, which we do without hesitation.

He is enraged as I have rarely seen and nothing that can be said seems to calm him down.

He yells at me to tell him where my friends are gone and call them, tell him where the guns are.
He empties my pockets and takes my keys, cell and asks for my code, meanwhile two other guys just as enraged arrive, one is with Ludo and him also empties his pockets.

The guy with the gun gets impatient because I can't remember my code so he puts the gun to my temple and pushes my head against the ground so hard I feel the barrel retract.

I can't remember my code and I tell them my friends are long gone.

The other guy asks me where my car is and I don't know how to explain to him so he gives me a big kick in the ribs enough for me to lift in the air, then puts his foot on me pushing, the other is still there pointing at me with his gun, they are enraged, I tell them I can't breathe they tell me "we don't care motherfucker" and other things in what seems to be Arab.

If I ever move my head slightly they get angry more and tell me not to look at them, all I see is feet, I see the girl come back with a big miner's pickaxe and I see her lifting her ready to go kick me in the chest but luckily the guy stops him with a wave of his hand.

All I want at this point is for the police to come, but I don't see them calling the police, they seem to want to sort it out themselves and I don't know if I'm going to get out alive.

I remain calm, however, continuing to try to calm them down in a calm tone.
He throws my cell in front of me asking me to call my friends again, I manage to unlock it by extending my arm and touching the fingerprint.
Moments later, I see a bunch of police feet arriving.

Never have I been so happy to see the police coming to arrest me.

They handcuffs me and lifts me up, I have trouble breathing and walking.
I beg them to get my cell, my keys and my photo gear that the owners took.
They put us in 2 separate cars. I ask for at least 30 minutes that they confirm to me that they have recovered our things, they tell us yes yes don't worry.

They bring me to the hospital where I spend about 18 hours, they discover that I have 3 broken ribs and a perforated lung.

My friend was detained at the police station for 7 hours and let him go, he no longer had cell phone or means of transport, nor the keys to the hotel which remained in the car which was towed to be searched.
Throughout the time I am in the hospital, I ask about ten times for news of my friend, who is left to his own in the streets. They don't give me any information.
An investigator from the high crimes department comes to the hospital to question me and have me tell them on video what happened.

All this time I thought that the owners had the right to shoot because it was on their property and it is there that the investigator told me that he is precisely there for that and not my misdeed.
They had neither the right to shoot nor the right to touch us.
He tells me that none of their stories make sense and that they deny hitting or shooting at me.
After the interrogation he tells me that the only story that makes sense is mine.

During this time, my friend managed to get to the hotel, come back and contact our friends on my laptop who had stayed there.
Our friends from the US have come to join him.

When we both got out and got the car back we returned to the station to get our gear. After several police stations and searches, they did not have our cameras / tripods or our cells. The only option is that it had been left with the owners.

So we asked to be escorted back to the theater to collect our gear.
The police warned us that if they didn't want to give it to us we couldn't do anything.
So we got there, the police spoke with them for several minutes until he called for us, they opened the door for us and asked to get our gear "where we had left it".

I knew it wouldn't be there.
I then asked the owner if they had it, he was just looking as us arrogantly, without speaking. The police ended up saying "well, they don't have it, we have to go". If you want your stuff you are going to have to bring them to the civil court.

In the following days we went to make a complaint to the internal affairs of the police for having mishandled the intervention and for having left our gear with the owners even after dozens of requests.
The policeman literally lectured me and tried to dissuade me by telling me that as soon as my stuff went through the door I couldn't prove that it was mine and that now it belongs to them, that the police couldn't know what or not belonged to us.
I ended up getting angry and telling him to take my complaint, he ended up doing it.

So we have to sue them in civil court if we want to have our gear back and to sue them for physical and mental damage.

We have both been accused of "burglary" which is a felony therefore in the highest type of crimes, so, very serious within the meaning of the law.

Our defense would probably cost around $10,000 each, because you can't have the same lawyer for conflict of interest.

My medical expenses go back to $9,200

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Thanks to my friends Michael, Bryan and Ryan who came to our rescue and hosted us for a week while we finished the procedure and get back on our feet a bit.

They literally financed me a new camera and lens and they loaned D-C a camera and lens, so we could continue our road trip.

Yes, we wanted to continue because in 10+ years of exploration, I had never experienced such an event and I did not think that something like this would happen to us again, we did not want to bow to fear.

Starting over now or in a year was not going to change anything.
We had already explored tons of places in the US without problems or charges, over several years.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Now begins part 2 of the road trip... wich we though would be normal as usual.

Against all odds, we got arrested again in another location and it turned out just as badly.

I feel downright bad to talk about it since we just got caught a few days before… normally things like that only happen in stories.


So.. we hit the road again, explored 3-4 spots with no problems.
The next loation we were going to was a former psychiatric state hospital with about 15 buildings.
We had planned to sleep there because some buildings are still in good condition, others totally abandoned, a few still active that we weren't planning to try.

We arrive at night and park the car in what seems to be a small industrial park, there is no "no parking" sign so everything is good.
We take our gear and walk towards the buildings, we had already spotted an open window before going to park.
We go in and go to bed for the night, we see a lot of police patrolling the streets. The next day we start shooting without problems.

All of the buildings are connected by steam tunnels that connect them together, making navigation easy and unobtrusive.
Not all the buildings are accessible.
Towards the middle of the afternoon we are finished and we go out to shoot the outside of the buildings, we see a police car, the guy waives at us and leaves.

Later we see a group of young people parked in front of one of the buildings that we couldn't access through the tunnels and they come and go from their car, clearly trying to get in. A few minutes later, we see the same young dude emerging from a corner of the building, brick in hand.
I walk by and joke "need a crowbar?"
We ignore them and we go around, we find an open window, so we decide to be cool and go open them, as we arrive were they were trying to enter we see them go through a window that they clearly smashed with the brick. I tell him, "come on man" and the guy tries to make us believe it's not them.
We hate people that break buildings especially when they lie to us in our face.
When we have finished shooting we go out and take a photo of the damage and the plate of his car.

We return to my car and we look for a police car to give them the information, finally we do not see any.
Before leaving we will see the morgue building which is a separate small building not connected by tunnels.
We park the car a little further, hidden from the street.
It's wide open, the side door has been completely smashed in since a very long time.
We shoot for 45 minutes and just as I set up my camera to take my last picture we see a policeman yelling at us, gun in hand.

Immediately we raise our hands and I light myslef up with my flashlight so he can see me well.
He orders us to advance quietly towards him, then they escort us to the street, where about 7-8 police cars are waiting for us, my car is surrounded.
They control us as if we were wanted killers.
They tell us that they saw us on the cameras (?!) The day before and that they have been looking for us ever since.
They handcuff us and put us under arrest, search us and they find my picks on me, it seems to put them in all their states.

They put us in 2 separate cars and there is no room for discussion, we go straight to the station, my car is towed.
When we got to the station we briefly explained what we were doing there and the tension went down.
An investigator come to meet us and read us our rights, ask us if we want to answer their questions, the guy is my age and super cool and charismatic and makes me feel like it's just a formality and we will be released, I basically tells him what we are doing and why and that we entered through a window unlocked etc. He asks me if they can search my car, claiming that its going to speed things up.

I accept, telling them that they will find a bag of work tools and a bunch of old paper, he tells me ok no problem.
Later he asks me if we have stolen things, I tell him no of course. I realized once he left that I had taken an old piece of paper with the name of the hospital, lying around, as a souvenir.
He comes back and, of course, he shows me the paper and asks me "you took that?" I'm like yes, but it's worthless and I'm not going there in order to steal a sheet of paper.
He therefore confirms to me at this moment that I am now being prosecuted for burglary, possession of burglary tools, property damage and criminal trespass.

I try to talk to him and make him understand that the papers left in these places are worthless to the owners and almost all already damaged etc.
He doesn't care, he tells me he's defending the state and that I stole from a state-owned building, period.

He also confirms to me that they seized several other documents coming from other places in other States which he believe to be "stolen" and that they seized my computer, our cameras, cellphones and that they will ask for a search warrant to search them and that they will contact all the agencies to link to the "documents" found in my car and any information found in our devices.

He tells me that we are very likely to be charged in several other states.

I try once again to make him understand what we are doing and that it is without bad intention and that we even close down places, contact owners etc ... nothing to do, the guy is on a mega powertrip.
They are now moving us into detention while we are seeing the judge. We spend the night in jail until we meet the judge at around 10am.
The judge has to decide if he lets us go or if we have to wait in jail until the preliminary trial which is in 2 weeks.
I speak to the judge on a webcam and he explains to me what is going to happen.
He told me that normally for this kind of charge he would put a bail for $105,000 but that he was going to give us a 'deal' for $35,000.

I am speechless, once he's finished speaking I ask him if we can speak, human to human and to try to understand that all this has been too far and that we are only documenting history.
He tells me that he cannot trust my words but the facts put in front of him on paper.
However, he seems to have compassion but remains on his decision.

I leave the room completely demolished, it's it, I'm going to jail for 2 weeks.

All these hours we had time to speak with the "staff" of the detention, including the receptionist who seemed to understand the shit we were in, we could not contact anyone because we had the numbers of no one and anyway the prison did not have an international line, so we could not contact our relatives until the trial in 2 weeks.

The moment you get arrested, you are completely stripped of your life and your freedom.

They put us back in the cell, and we await our transfer to the "real" prison.
An hour later the door opens, a policeman and a guy in civilian clothes with his coffee come in, we don't recognize him, the policeman tells us, "it's the judge".
The judge tells us "hey, brother from the north!" in a friendly tone. (This is the one we spoke to on webcam, who left his home to come see us)
He tells us he understands the situation and is ready to change his decision and let us go without paying 35k if our criminal record is correct.

He said, "I have a contact at the FBI who will contact the RCMP in Canada and get your criminal records out."

The receptionist had contacted the judge, if I understood correctly, to explain to him that we could not even reach our relatives.
An hour later he returns and confirms that he lets us go but that if we don't come back for the court date we will be arrested if we ever set foot in the US.
They let us go, we have no more cells, no more car, no more wallets, no nothing, ludo doesn't even have a coat.
They give us directions to the police station which holds our things which is about 5-6km away.

It is Saturday morning, we walk there and we ask to collect our things but they tell us that we have to come back on Monday because it is closed.
That means we are without cellphones or a car or money for the weekend.
We start looking for a refuge to sleep and beg for money to be able to eat.

It is completely ridiculous.

Finally we talk to a guy and he agrees to lend us his cell to contact our relatives and I manage to convince him that someone is going to send him money by Paypal. It works and he withdraws the money from an ATM.
We can therefore eat and take a hotel for the we.

Come Monday, we go to collect our things and the only thing they give us is our wallet and keys, everything else is being held as evidence for investigation. If we want our cells we have to give them permission to search them on the spot, which we refuse. We cooperated enough already.

We now go pick up the car (the garage broke my bumper by putting it on the towing, too).
We are going to buy new cell phones for the second time.

This is really the end of the road trip, we come back to Canada.
________________________________________________________________________________________

So that's where we are.

2 charges of burglary in 2 states with a big investigation into our computers/phones, past explorations and "documents" found in my car, close to $15,000 of equipment gone including our original cams that we will surely never see again.

$9,200 in hospital bill.

We have to individually take lawyers for each case which could cost up to $10-15k each.
It does not include the cost of trying to prosecute those who fired at me.

We already spent close to $5,000 and it's just for the lawyer to appear at the preliminary hearing, for one of the 2 cases.

I never ask for anything in life but honestly... it's just too much and impossible to raise.

I have no more work and currently I cannot return with my broken ribs.

So I share with you the gofundme that my friends created to help us.
Anything will help even if it's just $5.


https://gofund.me/f9774056


Thank you for taking the time to read all this.




Il y a toujours un moyen.
Steed 


Location: Edmonton/Seoul
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 2650 likes


Your Friendly Neighbourhood Race Traitor

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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 1 on 12/7/2021 2:37 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
The thought of a $9,200 hospital bill is enough to keep me from even visiting casually without doing any exploring.




mookster 


Location: Oxford, UK
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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 2 on 12/7/2021 7:17 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Man....what an absolute nightmare you guys have been through. It's not often I'm lost for words but this time I genuinely am.

If I wasn't having a tough time financially here I would throw some money in to help - if the situation improves I'll be sure to.




Freaktography 


Location: Burlington Ontario
Gender: Male
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Freaktography

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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 3 on 12/8/2021 3:12 AM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
You and L have my full support, I gave a donation at the start of the campaign and I will give another after the holidays.

Also shared this with my audience and I know there were donations from that as well.

Stay strong guys!

Vive Le Balayeur!




http://www.freaktography.com
https://www.facebook.com/Freaktography https://instagram.com/freaktography www.youtube.com/c/Freaktography
AdventureDan 


Location: Texas
Gender: Male
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I'm here to make wavy eyebrows and climb on stuff

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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 4 on 12/8/2021 4:33 AM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Sorry to hear about all that ridiculousness. I know how shitty the legal ramifications can be and mine wasn't near that crazy. I'll be sharing on my different platforms. Hope you cam get back to sweeping soon 🤞




AAAAAAAAAAAADVENTURE TIME!!!!
uLiveAndYouBurn 


Location: Beyond
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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 5 on 12/8/2021 2:16 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
We, as soon as we saw her, was saying calmly, trying to pierce her cries, "don't worry", "we are photographer, don't worry!", "Sorry", "don't be scared, we are unarmed ".


This is when you should just run.


Later we see a group of young people parked in front of one of the buildings that we couldn't access through the tunnels and they come and go from their car, clearly trying to get in. A few minutes later, we see the same young dude emerging from a corner of the building, brick in hand.
I walk by and joke "need a crowbar?"


This is when you sigh deeply and leave prematurely. Groups like that attract cops and cops don't care if they get the right person.




"Aint nothin' to it but to do it"
Urban Downfall 


Location: Montréal - Qc
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 538 likes




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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 6 on 12/8/2021 4:46 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by mookster
Man....what an absolute nightmare you guys have been through. It's not often I'm lost for words but this time I genuinely am.

If I wasn't having a tough time financially here I would throw some money in to help - if the situation improves I'll be sure to.

Hey, thanks for the words.
Don't worry about the cash man, i appreciate the support.

Posted by Freaktography
You and L have my full support, I gave a donation at the start of the campaign and I will give another after the holidays.

Also shared this with my audience and I know there were donations from that as well.

Stay strong guys!

Vive Le Balayeur!

Thanks bro, know i would get your back too.

I know lots of the first donations came from when you shared it at first, thanks again!

Posted by AdventureDan
Sorry to hear about all that ridiculousness. I know how shitty the legal ramifications can be and mine wasn't near that crazy. I'll be sharing on my different platforms. Hope you can get back to sweeping soon 🤞

Thanks man, yeah it got waaaay too far for what it is..

I will never stop sweeping, i just hope i don't end up sweeping a cell for real.

Posted by uLiveAndYouBurn
This is when you should just run.

Running was not an option and would most likely have me killed with bullets in my back

This is when you sigh deeply and leave prematurely. Groups like that attract cops and cops don't care if they get the right person.

Police were driving past us several times while we were shooting exteriors and even waved at us, there were no indications they were looking for us.

You seem to know what to do in every situation.. but trust me, there was no indication whatsoever in both cases for us to do anything else than what happened.
I don't need to explain how we weigh the possible outcomes of situations as they happen.
You are a risk-taker like us, you know you can never control or predict perfectly the outcomes.

I will take my responsibility but this time, it just went way too far compared to the many time i've been 'caught'.
The only thing i can do now is to learn from this and be even more cautious than i am already and share this story so people stay alert too.




Il y a toujours un moyen.
Freaktography 


Location: Burlington Ontario
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 1879 likes


Freaktography

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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 7 on 12/10/2021 4:12 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum


Post by Urban Downfall
I don't know if i should be angry right now at you guys for conveying this information or keep my composure and give you a chance to apologise for wrongfully accusing me in these tough times.


I too am disgusted by the lack of support in this "community"




[last edit 12/10/2021 4:25 PM by Freaktography - edited 2 times]

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bleckfrog 


Location: SF East Bay
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hippity hop

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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 8 on 12/10/2021 6:36 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
this is extremely unfortunate, sorry yall had to go through this. i'll give what i can. hope yall stay strong and don't let this deter from future explorations. even if you do feel bad for asking for help, hope you know that it truly doesn't matter what other people think as long as you have a good conscience and can justify your reasoning for asking for help.

to sympathize with the people not being supportive, i do think it's hard for some people to empathize and understand, because maybe they only know you through online interactions and likely have never experienced what you just went through. like the law enforcement, they can only empathize to a certain extent, especially when presented items such as external objective legal documents.

if there's anything i've taken away from this and past experiences that people have been through, it's to never consent to searches or answer questions that may incriminate you without a lawyer.

that being said, i wish yall the best of luck in the future




terapr0 


Location: Sauga City
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www . tohellandback . net

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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 9 on 12/10/2021 6:47 PM >
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Guillaume and Ludovic are as solid as the Rock of fucking Gibraltar. The type of guy's who would venture far out of their way to help someone in need, and I trust their story and their integrity 100%. I've donated $200 and plan to donate more after the holidays. Both of these guys would have my back if the roles were reversed, and I think it's a fucking travesty what's happened to them.

I'll also just say that hindsight is always 20/20, and it's easy to throw out a bunch of alternative scenarios and how they could have played out. The fact is none of that will change what did happen to 2 of the most competent and trustworthy explorers I've ever met. It could happen to any of us, and I think we should come together as a community and help support these guys because they would be doing the same for any of us.

$0.02



[last edit 12/10/2021 6:48 PM by terapr0 - edited 1 times]

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Freaktography 


Location: Burlington Ontario
Gender: Male
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Freaktography

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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 10 on 12/10/2021 7:06 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by terapr0
Guillaume and Ludovic are as solid as the Rock of fucking Gibraltar. The type of guy's who would venture far out of their way to help someone in need, and I trust their story and their integrity 100%. I've donated $200 and plan to donate more after the holidays. Both of these guys would have my back if the roles were reversed, and I think it's a fucking travesty what's happened to them.

I'll also just say that hindsight is always 20/20, and it's easy to throw out a bunch of alternative scenarios and how they could have played out. The fact is none of that will change what did happen to 2 of the most competent and trustworthy explorers I've ever met. It could happen to any of us, and I think we should come together as a community and help support these guys because they would be doing the same for any of us.

$0.02


HERE HERE!




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uLiveAndYouBurn 


Location: Beyond
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Anarchocommunist

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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 11 on 12/11/2021 5:26 PM >
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Posted by Urban Downfall
but trust me, there was no indication whatsoever in both cases for us to do anything else than what happened.



laughing out loud at this statement! "I refuse to acknowledge my fuckups and mistakes and want to be financially bailed out for them."

Don't think a fucking DETECTIVE is your goddamn friend, first of all.

This wasn't a damn piano falling on your head out of nowhere, you and your crew made a whole successive chain of errors in both of these events. Own your mistakes!



[last edit 12/11/2021 5:28 PM by uLiveAndYouBurn - edited 1 times]

"Aint nothin' to it but to do it"
Urban Downfall 


Location: Montréal - Qc
Gender: Male
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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 12 on 12/12/2021 1:07 AM >
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Posted by uLiveAndYouBurn



laughing out loud at this statement! "I refuse to acknowledge my fuckups and mistakes and want to be financially bailed out for them."

Don't think a fucking DETECTIVE is your goddamn friend, first of all.

This wasn't a damn piano falling on your head out of nowhere, you and your crew made a whole successive chain of errors in both of these events. Own your mistakes!


Alright man, you seems to know it all and did it all.

What is your point? To just tell me all the possible mistake i have done while you weren't even there to judge?
That obviously you would have dealt perfect like the perfect person you are?

YES i did some mistakes but not even the one you were pointing out.
Do i own them?? Yes.
Does that refrain me from asking for help because maybe i made an error in a complicated chain of event?

Don't want to help and are only here to tell how you know it all? Then just go away man, you are so negative and toxic.

Come write to me in private if you think you can teach me how to explore and deal with the thousands of possibility that can happen.

Can't wait to be perfect like you.



[last edit 12/12/2021 1:23 AM by Urban Downfall - edited 1 times]

Il y a toujours un moyen.
roue_libre 


Location: Tio'tia:ke / Montréal
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freewheelin'

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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 13 on 12/12/2021 4:05 AM >
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These two are some of the most experienced explorers out there, who have successfully talked their way out of every dicey situation they've been in – until perhaps now. These latest events might still hopefully blow over, but they are also stark reminders of all that can go wrong when we get complacent... or plain unlucky.

I got careless and fell down a hellhole not too long ago. I was lucky to get alive, without life-changing injuries. You know this already, Urban, because you were there. We're both survived our respective predicaments, and that means we get to explore another day.

No explorer deserves to be robbed at gunpoint, kicked senseless and dragged through the court system, or worse, prison... just for taking pictures. Victim-blaming won't help. I can see this thread heading for some potential drama, if not an all out flame war. I'll still put myself out on a limb:

Sometimes our naïvety as explorers can get us into trouble. We know in our hearts of hearts that we're not doing any (real) harm, so we mistakenly assume that we'll be able to placate every LEO, landlord or nosey Parker we'll come a cross, every. damn. time. But you can't predict other people's reactions or expect them to be 100% composed and rational in any given situation. Things can escalate fast. When you're on somebody else's property, you're basically guilty until proven innocent.

You went from a fairly safe-and-civilized exploration locale and walked straight into some sort of Wild West crimino-legal scene where the stakes are much higher. I appreciate your sense of adventure and I still hope this will all boil over for you two. I'm especially relieved that you didn't get shot. This should be a wake-up-call to everyone: just because you've done something 100 or 1000 times before, don't sleepwalk into any dangerous situations.

You often only get one opportunity to make a run for it, if shit really goes south. Don't squander it if there's a good probability of escape. Talking to LEOs can sometimes get you off the hook... but it will ALWAYS be used against you if LEO decides you're for dinner. Also, hoping that scrappers and vandals get caught is one thing, but I'd think twice about ratting anybody out, especially if I'm exploring on-site...

It's also good to consider all the "evidence" you might be bringing along to the action: in your phone, camera, backpack or car. It's all too easy to incriminate ourselves, our friends or other explorers without meaning to, even if we did nothing wrong. I really hope you're not about to find this out the hard way. It can pay to be a little "paranoid" (as you once said) when you're into this kind of pastime. Seems like a good time as any to brush up on security culture, if nothing else.

This isn't a matter of "I told you so" or kicking a guy while he's down (sorry). As it's been said here already, nobody can predict the future. It's good that you shared your story, so that we can all learn from it and help keep our community safer. That's what I came here to say.

Bonne chance, Urban! (Good luck). Tiens-nous au courant: on t'aidera tous et toutes comme on le peut!




The best time to explore was [however long] ago; the second best time is now.
– Chinese proverb
Urban Downfall 


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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 14 on 12/12/2021 6:00 AM >
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Merci man, j'espère que ça vas bien ce passer, j'espère que ton bras vas mieux aussi.

I never went blind into a spot and definately don't take anything for granted.

Every spot i do is scouted and tested before.

We took bunch of precautions and it still went sout at that first location.

Second spot, you are right about being a little bit more paranoid, if we say it like that.
Not that i had anything to hide really in my car but for them lots of thing can be interpreted wrong.

This, in the future i will be more carefull but then again, i had my car searched many times before and they never bat an eye on my stuff.
Even the first spot they searched my car and they didnt care about the stuff the other place went crazy on.
It's really all because of that goddamn single sheet of paper they found.

It's easy to say not to talk to police etc, when what saved me and went right for 13 years WAS to talk and be honest.
I don't say it will always work, but it always worked for me.

If i did not talked and explained what we were doing, i would not be here to talk about it cause i would be in jail right now.

It did not even changed anything that we talk to them or not honestly, he told me he'd search my car anyway etc.

The facts are the facts, in court it's still gonna be the same facts, that i say i explore as a hobby or not.

Anyway... I feel like i did prety much everyting in the rule of art in both situation, it's easy to point out the flaws after the facts.

When it go right, you think everything was perfect but we walk on a luck line most of the time.

Again, if that can make everyone that are mad im asking for help happy, yes some small mistakes were made.

It's sad how people judge like if i was a newbe doing huge mistakes right of the bat but overlook the fact ive done the craziest shit for more than a decade without problems, with professionalism, helping other and the community and being a example for younger explorers.

It's probably overlooked because i don't brag or post about it and keep myslef low.

It's almost like if some people wait for you to fall to put it in your face.

Btw roue_libre all this is not pointed to you.
Cheers buddy.




Il y a toujours un moyen.
Doug 


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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 15 on 12/12/2021 10:41 PM >
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Hey UD,
So sorry that you went through all of that.
I've shared your story in a few places but to be honest I doubt they'll generate much response as everyone is on Telegram, Discord & the like and messages like this seem to quickly get lost in the feed, but hopefully you get something from it.

Good luck with it all.

Doug




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https://www.cavecl...wtopic.php?t=12259
WarBird69 


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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 16 on 12/12/2021 11:56 PM >
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Out of curiosity, was the times prior to this that you successfully talked to LEO in the USA, Canada, or elsewhere? I don't know what the culture surrounding LEO is in other countries, but in the USA they are most certainly not your friend if you're suspected of a crime. Anything you say to them can, and most likely will, be twisted and used against you.

I'm truly sorry this shit-show happened to you. Just based on what others say in here, you must be a pretty awesome dude that doesn't deserve this level of bullshit. I wish you all the best, and hope all this shit eventually blows over.

EDIT: Out of morbid curiosity, what would happen if you just never paid the hospital bill? It's in a whole different country from you, can they come after you for payment?



[last edit 12/12/2021 11:58 PM by WarBird69 - edited 2 times]

When twilight draws near, when you are pushed to the very limits of your soul, when it seems that all you have left are the dead remnants of the fabric of your life:
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Freaktography 


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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 17 on 12/13/2021 3:33 AM >
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Posted by WarBird69
you must be a pretty awesome dude


Understatement of the year, he is 100% one of the best guys and hardest working there is.

- Throws a party every year at mainly his expense and at entirely his risk
- He is a master at the craft of stealth and access, leaving no trace or damage
- Does the most epic shit in this hobby and barely talks about it

Exploring aside, we have talked extensively outside the hobby about real life things, he has a heart of gold.

Shame on any of you people in here like lowkey, uLiveAndYouBurn and anyone else outside of this forum, in private messages or on other platforms who dare to pass judgement on these guys.

Glass houses you hypocrites.



[last edit 12/13/2021 3:45 AM by Freaktography - edited 1 times]

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Urban Downfall 


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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 18 on 12/13/2021 3:42 AM >
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Posted by Doug
Hey UD,
So sorry that you went through all of that.
I've shared your story in a few places but to be honest I doubt they'll generate much response as everyone is on Telegram, Discord & the like and messages like this seem to quickly get lost in the feed, but hopefully you get something from it.

Good luck with it all.

Doug

Thanks so much Doug, means a lot.

You can share the shorter story by the gofundme page if you want cause yeah my text here is long.

Posted by WarBird69
Out of curiosity, was the times prior to this that you successfully talked to LEO in the USA, Canada, or elsewhere? I don't know what the culture surrounding LEO is in other countries, but in the USA they are most certainly not your friend if you're suspected of a crime. Anything you say to them can, and most likely will, be twisted and used against you.

I'm truly sorry this shit-show happened to you. Just based on what others say in here, you must be a pretty awesome dude that doesn't deserve this level of bullshit. I wish you all the best, and hope all this shit eventually blows over.

EDIT: Out of morbid curiosity, what would happen if you just never paid the hospital bill? It's in a whole different country from you, can they come after you for payment?

Thanks man, i hope everything go well too and i can have my stuff back soon. The first spot with the shooting and assault was definately something i never saw coming.

Just to be clear, i never said that i was thinking they were my friends or that i was sure it was the perfect idea.

But yeah, i always found my way out by being upfront and nice to whoever caught me before.

In both US and canada i have always worked the same way, basically just telling what i was doing there. There isn't much more to say anyway and i'm a bad liar. This is just my opinion.

Other than the gun carrying/ owning, i never felt much diffence between US and Canada arrests.
Since the recents events tho i'd say the difference is more about how they apply the law after the arrest, it's hard to explain.

Both cases have been overcharged, Burglary, really? That does not make sense.
Even the police itself and the bail judge was like wtf, thus why he let me out without a bail.

As for the hospital bill, i'm not sure.
I think i could not pay but i think at some point they could try to bring me to justice?!
I just don't want to take the risk of being blocked from coming back to the US.
In a couple of months the hospital told me it's gonna be sent to a collection company and i think after some time the price might go down and they will offer a "deal".
I'll see.

For now ill wait and use any money i can have for my lawyers.




Il y a toujours un moyen.
roue_libre 


Location: Tio'tia:ke / Montréal
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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 19 on 12/13/2021 5:14 AM >
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UD, I wrote before that I appreciate your sense of adventure. A part of me even admires your indefatigable persistence and industriousness. With respect, I'm also baffled by some risks you seem to take pretty casually, perhaps even brazenly. I know you consider yourself to be super cautious and for the most part, I am pretty sure you are. We just can't rely on our good fortune and bon enfant attitude to save our asses forever, as we're finding out. There's no point dwelling too much on the circumstances and what we could have done differently. La vie continue...

Posted by Urban Downfall
In both US and canada i have always worked the same way, basically just telling what i was doing there. There isn't much more to say anyway and i'm a bad liar.


You're probably a better one than I am (no offense, lol). I can deal with just about anyone who's respectful and well-meaning, but whenever I catch the whiff of a power trip, official contempt, or any nefarious intent to fuck me around, I find it impossible to play nice and toe the line : "Yes sir, no sir, three bags full [of bullshit], sir..." :-/

That's why I get out of there, if I can.




The best time to explore was [however long] ago; the second best time is now.
– Chinese proverb
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