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UER Forum > UE Main > Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers (Viewed 7620 times)
Urban Downfall 


Location: Montréal - Qc
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 538 likes




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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 20 on 12/13/2021 8:38 AM >
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Posted by roue_libre
I'm also baffled by some risks you seem to take pretty casually, perhaps even brazenly. I know you consider yourself to be super cautious and for the most part, I am pretty sure you are. We just can't rely on our good fortune and bon enfant attitude to save our asses forever, as we're finding out. There's no point dwelling too much on the circumstances and what we could have done differently. La vie continue...



Like i said before, i'm not taking things for granted or rely on good fortune, that would be stupid, i know there are risks and i try to calculate them case per case.
Usually you should be able to tell what could happend if you get caught based on several factors, those 2 particular spot has been taken seriously from what we knew. I won't go too much in detail here.

I learned some things from this experience and i just see it as a way to become stronger and better.

If i look casual it's because at some point you need to get used and control the fear and walk forward with confidence if you want to be able to accomplish your goals.

"Funny" thing is those 2 locations were nothing crazy, not to say even lame. Not that i underestimated them but it was nothing compared to way more sensible locations i have done before where what happened here would have made much more sense.

There is so much you can know in advance.




Il y a toujours un moyen.
roue_libre 


Location: Tio'tia:ke / Montréal
Total Likes: 58 likes


freewheelin'

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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 21 on 12/13/2021 8:20 PM >
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Posted by Urban Downfall

"Funny" thing is those 2 locations were nothing crazy, not to say even lame. Not that i underestimated them but it was nothing compared to way more sensible locations i have done before where what happened here would have made much more sense.

There is so much you can know in advance.


I know you meant "sensitive" locations, but this works even better

Like I wrote before, you explore in a skillful, mostly cautious and supremely confident way. Sometimes like you own the place, lol! I'm not saying you rely on good fortune alone: I'm saying it only gets us so far, eventually.

We scout our places and try to anticipate every likely (even possible) scenario, like you wrote. Once we cross that threshold, we advance with vigilance and confidence. I posted this too, recently: https://www.uer.ca...id=1&msgid=1963863

It's kinda "funny" also how many bad exploring busts happen at relatively low-interest sites, especially in rural and suburban U.S.A. Explorers either get caught at high-profile infrastructure, strategic or active areas sites, or they get busted at lower-key places in peripheral Americana, where there's often a really regressive "law enforcement" culture. The absolute worst.

That woman you startled in the theatre doesn't seem too smart, but it seems like she was also scared shitless. There might have been some activity way more criminal than urbex going on there, and out of the darkness emerge two guys with cameras: "surveillance gear", "guns" even. (WTF?) Even if the "occupants" got some nice DSLRs and a GoPro out of the deal, I get a feeling, like you did, that they might have preferred not to involved "the law" at all. Did they even call the cops to the scene, or were they tipped off by (accidental?) gunfire?

I'm just as disgusted as you are – but totally unsurprised – that the cops stonewalled your repeated appeals to reclaim your gear... at the time, duh. Report all the serial numbers of your stolen gear right away, if you didn't do so already. I can't see that incriminating you at this point, unless there's really sensitive data still on your media – even erased and (quick-)formatted...




The best time to explore was [however long] ago; the second best time is now.
– Chinese proverb
Interstitial 


Location: Cambridge
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 127 likes




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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 22 on 12/14/2021 1:07 AM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
It's so strange reading this awful story with the uer Christmas decorations overlaid.

Fucking hell man, I am so sorry this happened to you. We've never met but I know enough people who've vouched for you that I believe your story. I think a lot of the people who are skeptical or who say it is your fault are just looking for ways to convince themselves that if they do everything right, the same stuff won't happen to them - even if we all know that's not how the world works.

Sent $50 your way. Hopefully I'll make it to MALT sometime and we can meet.




EPOCH6 


Location: Fraser Valley, BC
Gender: Male
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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 23 on 12/15/2021 2:04 AM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Thank you for sharing this, helped me take a more critical look at a plan that I've been sitting on this week and decide against it. Thank you for the truly incredible variety of content, contribution, and creativity that you bring to UER. And thank you for your honesty and humility. We all fumble through this game relying primarily on our experience, intuition, and so often an inflated sense of confidence after a string of successful adventures. We should always expect when taking repetitive risks that our luck will eventually run out and that we will find ourselves staring down the barrel of the exact outcome we've always feared. That being said, extremely unfortunate how this one has played out and I sincerely hope that the situation improves for both of you.




Adv.Pack 


Location: Connecticut
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Adventure Pack

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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 24 on 12/15/2021 1:26 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by Urban Downfall
she starts to say "they are there!", "They have guns!" "quick!"



This makes my skin crawl. This fucking idiot probably doesn't even understand that she was responsible for almost getting you shot.





https://www.instagram.com/chris.kiely/
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VAD 


Location: Toronto
Total Likes: 161 likes


Forgive us our trespasses

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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 25 on 12/19/2021 9:41 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Guillaume - I am so sorry this happened to you!

I've dealt with similar before (not as bad though), some things you might find helpful:

1. Definitely don't pay the full $9,200 hospital bill! You can probably negotiate that down a lot, especially if you convince them that you do not have the money and cannot pay even if you wanted to. https://www.vox.co...nsive-medical-bill

2. Check whether the Quebec health plan will cover some of your USA expenses. Ontario will do this, but they don't reimburse you very much of it (usually you'd need to pay first show them the bill)

3. You can get a lawyer to represent you and Ludovic together. Many won't want to, but it's not a rigid rule. The only reason lawyers are reluctant to represent co-defendants, is in case you and Ludovic tried to blame each-other - so you need to promise to the lawyer that you are in it together and will never change your stories to blame each other. Some lawyers will still refuse to represent you both, but don't hire those lawyers! Find one who will. Not only will it cost you less, but your defense will be much stronger if you are working together.

4. Find a lawyer who has a reputation for taking cases to trial. Many lawyers will try to get you to plead guilty to a lesser charge instead of fighting it. That is exactly why the police charged you with so many things: burglary, possession of burglary tools, property damage and criminal trespass. Now, the prosecutor can give you the "deal" of just trespass, and try to convince you to plead guilty to trespass in exchange for getting the other, worse charges dropped. Many lawyers will try to convince you to take such deals even if you can win the trespass case, because it is easier for the lawyer. On the other hand, if you have a lawyer with a reputation for taking things to trial, the prosecutor is more likely to drop all charges because it is not worth his effort to proceed on these charges if you're going to fight hard to clear your name.

5. If you are convicted of anything - whether at trial or if you plead guilty - you might be inadmissible to enter the USA again because of it. Try to clear your name on all counts! Even if you are acquitted on everything, the fact that you were arrested and charged could show up to border officers. Talk to your lawyer about that, and consider talking to an immigration lawyer who specialises in it.

6. The $5000 you paid for the preliminary hearing was probably the lawyer's retainer - this money will continue to be used for other work your lawyer does, and the preliminary hearing itself did not cost $5000!

7. For the civil suit against the property owner who kicked you, shot at you and took your gear - your dollar damages are your medical bills, lost wages and lost equipment, but sue them for much more than this - pain and suffering, emotional distress, punitive damages, etc. You probably won't get all this, but the goal is to get just your medical bills, lost wages and lost equipment. If you sue for more, then you give them room to "settle" for what you really want, without going to trial. Avoid taking this civil suit to trial because a judge could decide you deserve nothing because you were trespassing.

8. Find out if the property owners were charged criminally for their assault against you. Tell the police that you want to press charges. You can get restitution through criminal charges too. With criminal charges, the state pays for them to be prosecuted, not you. If they are charged criminally, it will also make it easier for you to win your civil suit (where you pay for the lawyers).

9. Based on your description, I'm not even convinced that the people who assaulted you actually were the owners. They might have been involved in other criminal activity, such as car theft, and were using the theatre illegally. The way they reacted is much closer to how criminals react than property owners.

10. The people who assaulted you might not be worth suing because they have no money to pay you. Try to find out if they actually have any valuable assets before spending too much money on a lawyer in the civil case.

11. Don't be surprised if this UER post becomes Exhibit A in one or both of your court cases! I recommend you make it full member only so it is not visible on Google.

12. Likewise for your gofundme page - try to make it hard to find on Google, and not obviously linked to your name or this incident. If the judge in either case sees that you made a few thousand from gofundme over this, he might be harsher on you. If the hospital sees it, they will dispute your claim of an inability to pay the hospital bill.

I've donated some anonymously to your gofundme - it's the least I can do after all the selfless work you put into UrbexMalt and this community in general!

Good luck with this awful situation, and let me know if I can do anything more to help!



[last edit 12/20/2021 9:21 PM by VAD - edited 1 times]

-VAD
Urban Downfall 


Location: Montréal - Qc
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 538 likes




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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 26 on 12/23/2021 5:54 AM >
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Posted by Interstitial
It's so strange reading this awful story with the uer Christmas decorations overlaid.

Fucking hell man, I am so sorry this happened to you. We've never met but I know enough people who've vouched for you that I believe your story. I think a lot of the people who are skeptical or who say it is your fault are just looking for ways to convince themselves that if they do everything right, the same stuff won't happen to them - even if we all know that's not how the world works.

Sent $50 your way. Hopefully I'll make it to MALT sometime and we can meet.

Hey thanks a lot man.
Yeah it's so easy to judge when you were not there.

I hope you can make it to the meet too! The building should still be there next year.

Posted by EPOCH6
Thank you for sharing this, helped me take a more critical look at a plan that I've been sitting on this week and decide against it. Thank you for the truly incredible variety of content, contribution, and creativity that you bring to UER. And thank you for your honesty and humility. We all fumble through this game relying primarily on our experience, intuition, and so often an inflated sense of confidence after a string of successful adventures. We should always expect when taking repetitive risks that our luck will eventually run out and that we will find ourselves staring down the barrel of the exact outcome we've always feared. That being said, extremely unfortunate how this one has played out and I sincerely hope that the situation improves for both of you.

Thank you for your kind words man.

It's true that we can never expect to be always lucky. You are right, at some point you can only use your experience, judgement and intuition.

Im curious what was your plan that you decided not to do, write me in PM if you want.
Even after what happen, there is not much i would not do still.

Posted by Adv.Pack
This makes my skin crawl. This fucking idiot probably doesn't even understand that she was responsible for almost getting you shot.

Damn man i know, she was so hysterical... But i guess when you live in that kind of neighbourhood you don't think about nice people first... I don't know what she really thought.


Posted by Vad
Guillaume - I am so sorry this happened to you!

Thanks bro and for you donation, greatly appreciated.
You said many valid points, ill write you in PM to discuss some of thoses.
I don't want to get too deep in details about the cases here.

Anyone who wants info don't hesitate to PM me.




Il y a toujours un moyen.
EPOCH6 


Location: Fraser Valley, BC
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 347 likes




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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 27 on 1/2/2022 11:39 PM >
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Posted by Urban Downfall
Im curious what was your plan that you decided not to do, write me in PM if you want.
Even after what happen, there is not much i would not do still.

Nothing crazy, I was planning to head to Gravenhurst, ON before sunrise, park downtown, take a cab to the perimeter of the Muskoka Sanitorium complex and spend the morning shooting it. I had a flight to catch back to BC that evening so there wasn't any contingency time for dealing with security misaps. After reading of several botched attempts/encounters with on-site security/police, recent charges at the location, and reading your thread I decided to find something with less heat, ended up going to Burwash instead which was awesome.

I understand you may not want to answer here, PM if you'd prefer, but do you believe that they were defending their own criminal activity at the theater? Their reaction seemed so extreme, and the inconsistencies of their stories when questioned.



[last edit 1/2/2022 11:42 PM by EPOCH6 - edited 1 times]

Doug 


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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 28 on 1/17/2022 3:51 AM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
It's been a few weeks.
How are things going?
Have you managed to get any charges dropped or cut your costs in anyway?

I donate again before it's over.




The Urbex Zine Guy
https://www.cavecl...wtopic.php?t=12259
Urban Downfall 


Location: Montréal - Qc
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 538 likes




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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 29 on 1/21/2022 3:33 AM >
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Posted by EPOCH6

Nothing crazy, I was planning to head to Gravenhurst, ON before sunrise, park downtown, take a cab to the perimeter of the Muskoka Sanitorium complex and spend the morning shooting it. I had a flight to catch back to BC that evening so there wasn't any contingency time for dealing with security misaps. After reading of several botched attempts/encounters with on-site security/police, recent charges at the location, and reading your thread I decided to find something with less heat, ended up going to Burwash instead which was awesome.

I understand you may not want to answer here, PM if you'd prefer, but do you believe that they were defending their own criminal activity at the theater? Their reaction seemed so extreme, and the inconsistencies of their stories when questioned.


Yeah i feel you, i think you made the right choice not pushing it.

For the owners, no i don't think so, they were just mental and when questioned he probably just didn't wanted to say he shot AT me and avoid telling they also kicked me etc.


Posted by Doug
It's been a few weeks.
How are things going?
Have you managed to get any charges dropped or cut your costs in anyway?

I donate again before it's over.


Thanks for checking in Doug.

We passed in cour for NJ and the charge of burglary dropped, it fell from the supreme court to municipal.
We now have a charge of criminal trespass which at least is not a felony.
We pass in court again soon, hope it get dismissed totally, especially with what they did to us which should play in the scale.

First appearance at PA is in about a month.




Il y a toujours un moyen.
Doug 


Gender: Male
Total Likes: 769 likes




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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 30 on 1/21/2022 2:26 PM >
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That's great news regarding the felony.

Good luck with it all




The Urbex Zine Guy
https://www.cavecl...wtopic.php?t=12259
Floff 


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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 31 on 1/21/2022 4:36 PM >
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That's a horrific story. It's really interesting to hear from more experienced Explorers how they handle situations. You did everything you thought was right and unfortunately, the US sucks. IDK how I would've reacted in any of these situations so I won't speculate on "what could've been done differently". Ultimately it doesn't matter. I'd give money if I wasn't broke rn. Good luck with everything, and thank you for sharing your experiences. Hopefully, they will help others avoid the same fate.




Urban Downfall 


Location: Montréal - Qc
Gender: Male
Total Likes: 538 likes




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Re: Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers
< Reply # 32 on 3/12/2022 6:56 AM >
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Hey everyone,

I wanted to give an update, which will be pretty much the end of this story for us legally.

Earlier in february, we had our preliminary NJ court hearing and the burglary charge had been dropped from supreme court to municipal court for criminal trespass.

A couple of weeks later we attended the municipal court hearing where the charge got dismissed completely and we also got expunged, meaning there will be no trace anywhere this ever happened.
The equipment was still not recovered though.


We then went to court recently for the 2nd case in Pennsylvania.

As you know, we had 4 charges including burglary, and our photo equipment, cells, computers, hard drives had been seized for investigation.

Our lawyers managed to have an out-of-court agreement so that we plead guilty to "defiant trespass" (it's a misdemeanor class 3) so the lowest criminal offense. An 800$ fine was also due.

So we end up with a criminal record in Pennsylvania.
All our belongings have been returned too, even most of the papers found in my car.

They kept some for an "ongoing investigation". (which will probably not end up anywhere)
It's unlikely that it's gonna be a problem at the US customs with a misdemeanor but it's always up to the customs officer whether he lets you in or not.

So yeah, it's "over", the only thing that continues is my civil lawsuit against the owners of the first spot, for my physical damage and the theft of our equipment.

We get away with a lawyer's bill of about $12,000 which isn't that bad considering it included 2 cases and we thought we'd pay a lot more.

Thank you again to all those who have helped either mentally or monetarily, I am infinitely grateful to you.
Thanks again, Ryan and Michael.

I hope to get back at it soon and beat that fear that i now carry.

*Never stop exploring*

"There is always a way"




Me and Decayed_State



[last edit 3/12/2022 7:15 AM by Urban Downfall - edited 2 times]

Il y a toujours un moyen.
UER Forum > UE Main > Exploring gone wrong - Help fellow explorers (Viewed 7620 times)
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