I was wondering what people's views on the Seperation of Church and State were?

For me I support the seperation as it has been shown in the past that when the church has been involved in politics it has contorted the core value's of the religion.

That is a hard one for me. I do agree there should be separation, but I don't know if it should be total or not.....
I think it is more important to take the politics out of religion than the other way around

No where in the Bill of Rights does the seperation of Church and State occur. The actual first ammendment is here:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I firmly believe that our founding fathers never meant for the terminology of Seperation of Church and State or the implications behind it to ever even be introduced. They were all very strong Christians. If they had truly meant for that terminology to be introduced, I do not think that they would have started every Congressional session with prayer. I do not believe that they would have prayed about going to war with Great Britian for our independence, which is what they did.

Well, think about it. Wouldn't you say that in order for there to be religious freedom as described in the First Amendment, that you can't legislate things based on one given religion? You can't have it both ways.

_{Sorry, I'm spying. I wouldn't do it except that Irish can beat me up in real life.}

Posted by Curious_George I was wondering what people's views on the Seperation of Church and State were? For me I support the seperation as it has been shown in the past that when the church has been involved in politics it has contorted the core value's of the religion.

My views are that whenever religion and government were comingled, both suffered greatly. Kenshin rightly says that nowhere in the Bill of Rights or Constitution the phrase "seperation of church and state" occurs. This was a phrase in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Christian minister. However, this concept is codified in the Constitution and defined by case law.

1) The First Amendment stricture against Congress passing any law respecting the establishment of religion.

2) The 14th Amendment which, along with Supreme Court case law, transfers the First Amendment strictures to the state governments.

3) Article VI, Clause 3 which forbids a religious test for positions of public trust. (Used to overturn state constitutions which mandate Christian only elected or appointed officials)

4) centuries of case law which the SCOTUS and state supreme courts held the government incompetent to direct or judge internal matters of church doctorine.

5) An 1872 Ohio supreme court case (Minor v. Board of Education of Cincinatti) where school lead prayer was outlawed.

6) The founding fathers were not all Christians. They were, however, mindful of the Church of England and the evils evident in the comingling of religion and government. This is to say that besides ceremonial shows of religion, no sectarian laws should be passed. (The 1954 and 1956 Acts directly flew in the face of this, but more on that later.)

It is my ardent belief that the 1954 and 1956 Acts were enacted improperly.

First some background.

1954 Act - Added the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance.

1956 Act - Changed the National Motto to "In God We Trust" from "E Pluribus Unum", commanded the motto be placed on currency, and changed the oathes of office for federal judges to include "so help me God".

To illustrate how these laws had no secular purpose came from quotes by the primaries for the 1954 legislation.

"From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty" -- President Dwight Eisenhower while signing this legislation (100 Congressional Record 8618)

"At this moment of our history the principals underlying our American Government and the American way of life are under attack by a system whose philosophy is at direct odds with our own. Our American Government is founded on the concept of the individuality and the dignity of the human being. Underlying this concept is the belief that the human person is important because he was created by God and endowed by Him with certain inalienable rights which no civil authority may usurp. The inclusion of God in our pledge therefore would further acknowledge the dependence of our people and our government upon the moral directions of the Creator. At the same time it would serve to deny the atheistic and materialistic concepts of communism with its attendant subservience of the individual." -- H.R. Rep. No. 83-1693 at 1-2 (1954)

The 1956 Act adds the religious test violation.

The institutionalized school prayer ban (individuals cannot be legally stopped from praying) from these quotes from Board of Education of Cincinnati v. Minor, 23 Ohio St. 211, 253 (1872)

"The government is neutral, and, while protecting all, it prefers none, and it disparages none." -- Justice Clark writing for the majority

"The great bulk of human affairs and human interests is left by any free government to individual enterprise and individual action. Religion is eminently one of these interests, lying outside the true and legitimate province of government.

The place of religion in our society is an exalted one, achieved through a long tradition of reliance on the home, the church and the inviolable citadel of the individual heart and mind. We have come to recognize through bitter experience that it is not within the power of government to invade that citadel, whether its purpose or effect be to aid or oppose, to advance or retard. In the relationship between man and religion, the State is firmly committed to a position of neutrality. Though the application of that rule requires interpretation of a delicate sort, the rule itself is clearly and concisely stated in the words of the First Amendment. " -- Justice Clark writing for the majority


I believe that religion is between the individual and their deity. Government should not get involved. Since the majority of individuals in the US are religious, governmental bodies and the military have sometimes found it necessary to hire clergy to minister and comfort members. Since the clergy have no force of law, it is classed as ceremonial deism.

"The government is neutral, and, while protecting all, it prefers none, and it disparages none."


If that were actually true, I think it would be better. Potecting all, and the keywords, Perfering none.

Wow, I wish we had people like that in office now (referring to Clark).