I have been wondering to myself what kind of relevance that portions of the Old Testament have to modern day life and myself. Some portions such as the story of Israel for some reason just didn't seem to have any connection to my own experience. As I read and found the Israelities continually screwing up and ignoring God I continually thought along the lines of, these people are stupid, they have a direct relationship with God and yet they are continually going against his will.

I then applied it to my life and found that I was doing the very same thing and boy did I feel stupid. Continually I was blessed by God and then I would go and do something to distance myself from God. The relevance of the Old Testament, particularly the history of Israel is that we continue their same cycle. By identifying that cycle I have been able to identify my actions and help to prevent them from happening.

I believe that there's more to it then just the story of the Isrealites continually screwing up all the time. The entire Bible of course points to the majesty and soveriegnty of God. And of course that is shown time and again throughout the Old Testament. Of course a large part of the Old Testament is to provide backdrop to the New Testament. Without the OT, we would not understand the NT nearly as well. And also, there are a significant number of prophesies that have not yet come true that are in the OT. Pretty much the entire book of Daniel comes to mind. It's also largely through the OT that historical aspects of the Bible can be backed up. The NT was written in about 30 yrs and only covers about 60 yrs of history. Naturally that isn't going to give archeology something to work off of. The vast majority of archeaology is OT based and through that as well as the other things I have mentioned, the OT can be used to verify the NT.

I put the wrong title down, sorry, writing three papers kinda makes your mind not function properly after a while.

Serious question: how come god goes from a real nasty, cover you in boils, burn your soddomite village kind of dude in the old testament to a deity who now cares for us and sends his only son to die for our sins. People change but I don't think supreme beings do as they are perfect (well, allegedly.....starting to wonder about that Buddha guy)

I do not believe that God has ever changed His mind in relation to His treatment of both the Jews and the Gentiles. The first known prophesy of the birth of Jesus Christ can be found in Genesis 3:15.

--And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike at his heal.

As the Old Testament goes on, the prophesies continue to multiply. In fact, most of the prophesies of the existance of the Christ are revealed when Isreal is in bondage, or in other words when God is punishing Isreal.

Now as far as the issue of God punishing people with gross amounts of pain and anguish, I would argue that people bring it on themselves. If a person is to hold the Bible as true then it is very clear througout that every person is held accountable for their actions, and likewise a group of people is held in large part accountable for the group's actions. As has already been pointed out, Isreal very clearly had no reason to act as stupid as they did, and as a result they were disciplined time and again.

For the people that weren't God's chosen, i.e. the Gentiles, we know from history what they have done. Many of the Gentile groups committed atrocities that even today are considered insane.

It is clear from scripture that Egyptians endured all the pain that they did because they arrogantly went against God, despite being shown multiple miraculous signs. I should also point out that Isreal did not have to endure the pain and anguish that the Egyptians did. Each of the plagues went against Egyptian gods and glorified the one true God.

The next major thing that I can think of that lines up what you said in your post might be the fall of the Assyrian empire. They sacrificed their own young. The next would be the fall of the Babylon empire and again it was them either sacrificing brutally killing. The pattern goes on until about 400 years before Christ in which time the world entered into a time of relative stability. I emphasize the word relative, but no one can deny that at the time of Christ, the world was stable.

Now the time from Christ to now. Despite being after Christ, there still have been massive plagues, massive wars and massive atrocities. And again, I really do believe that people in general bring all this stuff on themselves if we are to believe of the Bible to be true. I believe that we haven't seen the incidents of supernatural punishment in this time because God is a patient God and He is trying to give everyone as much time as possible to come to Him.

Now, if we're to believe that the Bible is true, then it is very clear that a time of supernatural plagues and punishment is yet to come that will put what the Egyptians through to shame. Both Revelation and Daniel prophesies that the entire world, except for God's chosen in most prophesies, is to endure great plagues and great punishments and will culminate in the second coming of Christ and after that the destruction of the earth. The time I'm referring to is known as the tribulation and it begins when the entity known as the anti-Christ signs an unholy, 7-year treaty with the nation of Isreal.

So in final answer to your question, I believe that there's no change in God at all, but rather following a very clear and specified pattern throughout the entire Bible. These views aren't just mine but that of the entire Evangelical community.

Now I know full well that not everyone here is not going to agree with this post, in fact I know that people are going to become very angry at this post and at me. So I'm asking all that may reply to this thread to not let it degenerate into a massive flame war.

Posted by apprentice Serious question: how come god goes from a real nasty, cover you in boils, burn your soddomite village kind of dude in the old testament to a deity who now cares for us and sends his only son to die for our sins. People change but I don't think supreme beings do as they are perfect (well, allegedly.....starting to wonder about that Buddha guy)

I would say that God has always cared for us, otherwise He could have done something similar to the great flood (although not the same thing of course.... "Genesis 9:11 - And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.") But He instead chose to offer His son as a sacrifice in our place. If we are willing to choose it. That ensures our free will, but the upcoming tribulation period will be punishment for the wrongdoings of men. So I think it really is the same thing as the flood period, do wrong, be punished. Do wrong, be punished, in a cycle.
Kenshin I think you are correct, and you put into words better than I ever could.
As Kenshin asked, please do not flame anyone. I do not expect everyone to agree with these sentiments, but if you plan to do so, please do it in a respectful manner, as I do with everyone who disagrees with me.

Interesting. No flaming wanted or needed. I was just curious as to the differences. George Carlin asked the same question once (but I'm not posting his view here...it's quite Carlinesque, four letters etc). Thanks for the replies

Posted by apprentice Interesting. No flaming wanted or needed. I was just curious as to the differences. George Carlin asked the same question once (but I'm not posting his view here...it's quite Carlinesque, four letters etc). Thanks for the replies

I wouldn't think you'd start a flamewar ;)

I love listening to Carlin's views on things, he's got some great points. I need to get that new book....but hey, if you have it handy, you could PM me his thoughts....

"The time I'm referring to is known as the tribulation and it begins when the entity known as the anti-Christ signs an unholy, 7-year treaty with the nation of Isreal."

Gee, when does George W sign a treaty with Isreal that will last for seven years?

Seriously, though.

I believe that God has changed in his requirements for salvation in the Bible. Before the New Covenant, one needed to live a pure life, make the proper sacrifices, and follow every law. With the New Covenant, God assumes that people are incapable of following His law to the letter and makes his own sacrifice of a part of himself for the sins of man. (To refer to Jesus as a seperate entity from God activates that whole "no other Gods before Me" commandment) In effect, making a new agreement with man concerning worship. As such, much of the Old Testament law became obsolete. (The parables mean to convey a story concerning morality for instruction purposes)

He also goes from a real "hands on" kind of diety (visiting plagues, destroying towns, destroying the earth, etc) to one more subtle in nature working through people instead of taking direct action. It seems linked to the forging of the New Covenant. Underlying attitudes may be unchanging, but methodology definately changes.

Just my $.02 worth.

Paul actually talks about that quite a bit in Romans. He very clearly said that Abraham was not justified by good works but was justified by faith. This would seem to make sense considering that he lied to a king about Sarah being his wife and he didn't trust God to use Sarah to fulfill the promise. David was called a man after God's own heart and yet he murdered, lied and committed adultry. Elijah was a coward. Etc, etc, etc...

The whole idea of the sacrifice of some animal, normally a perfect lamb or other animal without blemish was the mirror what would happen on the cross later on. At least to me, it seems fairly clear from Paul's letters that people were not justified by works but by faith in the promise that was to be fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

I believe the old testament was meant to show us that no matter what god does, we will reject him. People ask why god just doesnt come down and say "I am god and I can prove it." He has done that many times and people still reject him. In revelations when the devil is put in bondage for 1000 years and Christ is the boss, there will still be sin and those that refuse to accept god. We value freedom of thought and freedom to sin more than we do salvation.