In most Christian religions (and possibly other non-christian ones), "God" is thought to be all-knowing and all-powerful. All-knowing generally refers to past, present and future.

So, if God knows what you are going to do next week, do you really have a choice? Is there any way to change your actions before they happen? But God would know! Does God control or does He just sit on the couch eating popcorn, reeling over the past, present, and what you're REALLY going to do next week, all at the same time?

And if God already knows that you are going to go to Hell, should He really be even creating your life in the first place, just to suffer? Why would God create a human life, knowing that the person is going directly to Hell? (Go to Hell. Go directly to Hell. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.)

Do you have the free will required to reply to this thread? And if you're going to -- God already knows that. So, do you have the power NOT to reply to this thread? If you change your mind, God already knew you would do that, too. God knows what you'll eventually do. How can anything be wrong?

Em

Of course we have free will. Just because God knows what we're going to do doesn't mean we can't change our mind. Knowing doesn't imply exercising anything over us. So, he knows, and he also knows we might change our mind, hell, he probably knows what we're going to change our mind to... but none of that effects wether or not we actually change our mind. Unless he acts on it. At least, that's what I believe.

Posted by Decoy Of course we have free will. Just because God knows what we're going to do doesn't mean we can't change our mind. Knowing doesn't imply exercising anything over us. So, he knows, and he also knows we might change our mind, hell, he probably knows what we're going to change our mind to... but none of that effects wether or not we actually change our mind. Unless he acts on it. At least, that's what I believe.

Interesting.

Take the lowly proton. Where is it now? What direction is it heading? How fast is it moving (trick question)? Calculate this and you will know where it has been, and where it is heading. You will know this proton's position in all points in time and space.

Knowing this means what? It cannot have free will, because you already know it's past and it's future.

...or am I wrong (again?)

As I have posted before

click to view

Of course we have free will. If you believe that God is telling you to brush your teeth, make dinner, go to the meeting, pull the trigger, turn left or right, then you need antipsychotic medication and a stay in a psychiatric facility

Posted by KublaKhan Take the lowly proton. Where is it now? What direction is it heading? How fast is it moving (trick question)? Calculate this and you will know where it has been, and where it is heading. You will know this proton's position in all points in time and space. Knowing this means what? It cannot have free will, because you already know it's past and it's future.

No... I may have the ability to know where the proton has been, where it is now, and where it will be in the future, but that does not mean I caused it to be in those places. It went there, and will go there, on its own.

Posted by The Doctor If you believe that God is telling you to...pull the trigger...then you need antipsychotic medication and a stay in a psychiatric facility

Isn't that always the case?

Here is a link to what the Catechism has to say on the issue of man's free will:

http://www.usccb.o...sect1chpt1art3.htm

Posted by Trixi Here is a link to what the Catechism has to say on the issue of man's free will: http://www.usccb.o...sect1chpt1art3.htm

Well, if it comes from the Catholic Church then it must be true. The Catholic Church would never mislead us or provide false hope for over 1500 years, would they??

Posted by The Doctor Well, if it comes from the Catholic Church then it must be true. The Catholic Church would never mislead us or provide false hope for over 1500 years, would they??

I dunno. Is Galileo still wrong? Or is he just recently correct?

Posted by KublaKhan I dunno. Is Galileo still wrong? Or is he just recently correct?

Or was he right all along and the vatican wouldn't admit they were wrong.

Posted by The Doctor Or was he right all along and the vatican wouldn't admit they were wrong.

Um...give your head a shake, man. The Vatican? Wrong?

Puh-leeeze.

Posted by The Doctor Well, if it comes from the Catholic Church then it must be true. The Catholic Church would never mislead us or provide false hope for over 1500 years, would they??

The discussion was about free will. Did you bother to read the link? If so, what part(s) did you agree or disagree with?

Posted by Trixi The discussion was about free will. Did you bother to read the link? If so, what part(s) did you agree or disagree with?

Perhaps the Good Doctor is exercising (or exorcising) his right to free will by posting his thoughts in a thread titled 'Do humans really have free will?'

Posted by KublaKhan Perhaps the Good Doctor is exercising (or exorcising) his right to free will by posting his thoughts in a thread titled 'Do humans really have free will?'

Is this really all you have to contribute to the discussion of free will?

Posted by Trixi Is this really all you have to contribute to the discussion of free will?

You're shitting me, right? No really. Shitting me. You must be.

Posted by KublaKhan Perhaps the Good Doctor is exercising (or exorcising) his right to free will by posting his thoughts in a thread titled 'Do humans really have free will?'

Of course, he could choose not to post under the thread title 'Do humans really have free will?'

More information on free will:

http://www.newadve.../cathen/06259a.htm

It looks like my views fall in line (mostly) with what the Catholic Catechism says. (I didn't read your recent link because it's just too long for me tonight! )


My theology prof in college explained it in a way that I could understand best. He talked about approaching a man or a woman who is in a strong marriage and telling them that their spouse just went to the hospital. Now, all he did was convey the message about the spouse. However, he knew what the reaction would be: the spouse would go immediately to the hospital. Did he force them to go to the hospital? No. It was that person's choice, a decision made of free will, to go check on their spouse. However, when telling them the news, he knew what they would choose to do because he knew the person well.


This is a human example, and I believe that the concept of God, by definition, implies understanding above that of humans. However, the example helped me a bit.

Respect: N.P and Rush

There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance
With a host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
"The stars aren't aligned ---
Or the gods are malign"
Blame is better to give than receive

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose free will

There are those who think that They've been dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them ---
They weren't born in Lotus-Land

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
That's far too fleet...

Posted by katwoman [....] My theology prof in college explained it in a way that I could understand best. [....]This is a human example, and I believe that the concept of God, by definition, implies understanding above that of humans. However, the example helped me a bit.

That is a very good way of putting it - I haven't really heard it said that nicely before.



I still have to raise the question --- if God knows (way before MaryJane is born) that MaryJane is going to Hell because she CHOSE to be such a shithead in life, does God still have the right to let her go to hell? And/or why would he even let MaryJane be created, in the first place? He knows, before she is born, that she's going to choose to go straight to Hell. Why have MaryJane in the first place? What good can come? What "justice" can come? Why would God let MaryJane be created, just to suffer in the end (and eternally)??

Em

Posted by Emma Peel I still have to raise the question --- if God knows (way before MaryJane is born) that MaryJane is going to Hell because she CHOSE to be such a shithead in life, does God still have the right to let her go to hell? And/or why would he even let MaryJane be created, in the first place? He knows, before she is born, that she's going to choose to go straight to Hell. Why have MaryJane in the first place? What good can come? What "justice" can come? Why would God let MaryJane be created, just to suffer in the end (and eternally)?? Em

Predestination: Every Divine decree by which God, owing to His infallible prescience of the future, has appointed and ordained from eternity all events occurring in time, especially those which directly proceed from, or at least are influenced by, man's free will.

The way I understand it: God preordained our eternal happiness. On the other hand, No one is predestined to sin or hell. Just as no one is saved against his will, so the sinner will perish solely on account of their actions (free will). God foresaw the fact that man would rebel against Him from all eternity, and preordained the punishment of "hell" on account of their sins.