HEY GANG! Check out the nasty fistfight going on in the OTHER section. Fukken AWESOME.

for the most part, it remained pretty civil. In this day and age of scientific discovery and knowledge, I still am amazed at how people so blindly swallow the notion of an invisible man in the sky with 10 things you can't do

Posted by Father Maurice Lester for the most part, it remained pretty civil. In this day and age of scientific discovery and knowledge, I still am amazed at how people so blindly swallow the notion of an invisible man in the sky with 10 things you can't do

No shit.

About those ten things...I wonder what was left off that list?

You'd have to pay me a lot to read that thread. I glanced through it the other day, saw the nature of the beast, and wasn't interested.

Same old cliches about religion...sigh. Too bad most people base their opinion of a religion based on a few people/experiences.

Speaking of those 10 things....a tidbit of info I learned the other day that I'm sure most Jews and Christians would gasp at...

The 10 Commandments originated, in part, from the Egyptian book of the Dead, and I'm sure there were earlier laws that provided a template for them (Sumerian, most likely). So, there was no Moses coming down from the mountain (no proof he was real anyhow) with tablets in hand. Somewhere along the line the laws were adapted into their dogma, probably a culmination of Jewish beliefs adopted from their time in Egypt.

I just found that interesting because I had never seen that direct connection before.

As far as what this has to do with religious tolerance...I think it speaks volumes for it. Tain't nothin' we believe is original or special to one religion, it's all cannibalized from other religions.

In other words:
"you are not special, you are the all singing, all dancing shit of the world"



Gotta love Fight Club.

Posted by Seek In Shadows So, there was no Moses coming down from the mountain (no proof he was real anyhow) with tablets in hand.

How do you know the Egyptian Book of the Dead existed? You believe the evidence and references that historians have found, the actual written copies of the book from the time period, and the large number of eyewitness accounts of seeing and/or reading the book.

How do you know the Ten Commandments existed? You believe the evidence and references that historians have found, the actual written copies of the tablets from the time period, and the large number of eyewitness accounts of seeing and/or reading the tablets.


How do you know Moses existed? You believe the evidence and references that historians have found, and the large number of eyewitness accounts of seeing and/or hearing that person.


Also, if the Ten Commandments originated, in part, from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and there was no Moses or tablets as you say, then when and where did the Ten Commandments come about? Did your uncredited source think that a Bible-writer just made them up? I'm curious.

I think it's safe to say that most if not all modern religion arose on the ashes of some old sect/cult/etc. I think it's correct to state/assume that modern religion has cannibalized the ancients texts in the development of their own (modern) orthodoxy.

There are striking parallels between the birth of Moses (who/whatever he was) and the birth of Christ. I think there are striking parallels between some ancient pre-Judaic cult and Christian mythology.

Read Otto Rank.

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/rank.html

Posted by katwoman How do you know the Egyptian Book of the Dead existed? You believe the evidence and references that historians have found, the actual written copies of the book from the time period, and the large number of eyewitness accounts of seeing and/or reading the book.

I believe the book of the dead existed, as followed by Egyptian religion and lore, because it was inscribed upon pyramidal walls that have been excavated and studied, in addition to other hieroglypic findings and papyruses found containing it. Also, the oldest copies they have of this date back to around 1500 b.c.

How do you know the Ten Commandments existed? You believe the evidence and references that historians have found, the actual written copies of the tablets from the time period, and the large number of eyewitness accounts of seeing and/or reading the tablets.

The problem here is that there is no actual proof the tables that commandments were reported to be enscribed upon existed. In fact, there are no true eye witness accounts of it's existence either, except in the fact that it was told that they were held within the Ark of the Covenant which is also, not proven to exist. In reference to the 10 commandments originating from the book of the dead, there are many historians, scholars, theologians that have hypothesized this because the tablets do not exist, thus far, and for the fact that the oldest copy of anything containing the 10 commandments is nearly 3 centuries later in time as compared to the oldest copy of the Book of the Dead....and considering how much time the Jews spent in Egypt, I'm sure they were exposed to the Egyptian religion. A people can not be under control of another and there be no exchange of beliefs.

How do you know Moses existed? You believe the evidence and references that historians have found, and the large number of eyewitness accounts of seeing and/or hearing that person.

Thing is that I don't believe Moses existed because as far as I know there has been no historical proof found of him outside of the Bible.

Also, if the Ten Commandments originated, in part, from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and there was no Moses or tablets as you say, then when and where did the Ten Commandments come about? Did your uncredited source think that a Bible-writer just made them up? I'm curious.

Well, as with the problem with most of the bible (if not all), know one knows for sure who wrote what. There's 3 or 4 different theories as far as who wrote the 10 commandments (or the Decalogue). In fact, there's even discrepancies within the bible as to exactly what the commandments were (as far as wording, arrangement etc.) The discrepancies alone tell me that there was no, so to speak, hard copy original to go off of. And how are we to even know for sure what was on these reported tablets inscribed by God even if they were to truly exist? Moses, according to the bible, smashed the first tablet.

And whose to even know how many different versions of the 10 commandments were floating around at the time of the acceptance of what became the first compilation of accepted Christian texts. Heck, even Christian and Hebrew versions differ.

Just for reference, the book I read that lead me into the direction of studying the origin of the 10 commandments was a book "All About Adam & Eve: How We Came to Believe in Gods, Demons, Miracles, & Magical Rites" by Robert Gillooly.

I hope I answered all your questions. And it should be noted that I myself am learning all of this information. But the one thing I can say that I accept as a universal fact is what I mentioned in the earlier post and to re-iterate what KublaKhan stated.... all religions are derived from those that existed before. Some of the best examples of this can be seen when one studies Zoroaster and sumerian mythology and the similarities between the stories of Jesus, Moses, and prophecy all stand out....and all of that existed long before any of the biblical figures.

Posted by Curious_George Same old cliches about religion...sigh. Too bad most people base their opinion of a religion based on a few people/experiences.

No, I think it's people who have realized that believing in something that has been morphed and rewritten so many times that the original is unrecognizable is silly

Thanks for answering my questions sincerely and without resorting to name calling and assumptions as too many do as of late in this forum.


I do agree with you and Kubla on the fact that many (if not all) religions can be derived from those that existed before. (For example, it's striking how many religions involve a "flood story.") My main interest here is how you can know that books and people of history actually existed.

There's a lot to touch on, and I'm really tired, so I'll just list a few reasons why I believe that history shows the reliability of the Bible:

I know that we have found a huge quantity of New Testament manuscripts. There are over 5,000 Greek, 10,000 Latin, and 9,000 in other languages, plus tons of Scripture quotations in other writings from the New Testament eras. Other well-known, respected, and trusted authors from the past have had far fewer copies of their writings found. There are only 7 from Plato, 49 from Aristotle, and 10 from Caesar. I know that the Old Testament was copied many times and that there are no significant differences between manuscripts 1,000 years apart! Those numbers say a lot to me about the authenticity of the Old & New Testament. If I believe that Plato was a real person, and that his writings are authentic, how can I not believe the Biblical writings are authentic?

The Bible is the most hated and the most loved book in the world, yet it is also the top selling book of all time. This is significant.

Posted by katwoman If I believe that Plato was a real person, and that his writings are authentic, how can I not believe the Biblical writings are authentic?

Believing that biblical writings are authentic is one thing. Believing that what they say is actually history is another. Believing that Plato was a real man is one thing because there is actual physical evidence of his existence. Believing that Abraham was a real person is another simply because the evidence supporting his actual existence is limited. The same can be said of Moses, and, to some extent, Jesus as well.

But none of this really matters. If we are consumed by the search for a physical and historic Jesus, then the brilliance of his message is lost in the excavation. His words become rooted in that chronology, and are unable to evolve with changing times. Which probably explains why God told us not to fashion false idols. A physical thing is no substitute for consciousness-expanding ideas like love Thy Neighbour etc.

The biggest thing to keep in mind about the bible is that what we have today is not what existed say when the first bible was written. What most people don't think of is there is no 'one' bible, there are many, many different versions of it, even in one religion, such as Catholicism. And a lot of things aren't just slight revisions, they are major changes, wording changed, entire books added and left out. If you want a hint of what the original composition of the bible included, find the New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocrypha. I myself have 4 different copies of the bible, all with different books in them. These manuscripts you speak of, many show differences than what is accepted in the bible and show us things that aren't included.

Another problem with the bible is that what is accepted in it was decided upon a man, not God, and not even a Christian...a Roman emperor who was Pagan until the time of his death. (Constantine the Great). There were many Christianities around at the time and it was kind of a pick and choose that went on as far as what was to go in there and then later, anyone that believed differently, was persecuted (this is truly what the Crusades were, not the happy saving Christianity story you read in school history books). Christians, throughout history have been some of the worst when it comes to persecuting others.

And you speak of Plato, etc. and believing in his writings...well the thing is that there is no question that Plato wrote his stuff....with the Bible, no one knows who wrote it. The Gospel of John was believed to be written by (maybe) a student of his doctrine of Christianity, so that alone...knowing what we know now about eye witness accounts and re-accounts of events by 3rd parties....tells me we have to question the validity of what it contains.

All of this in addition to the Nag Hammadi library, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the texts not included, lack of historical, archaeological evidence, etc.....tells me the bible can NOT be taken has history. A lot of people say, oh there's nothing wrong with the bible, it simply teaches people how to be good, etc. This isn't the case, the bible is used to back up a lot of hate as well..oppression against women, hatred to homosexuals, racism....so the problem with taking it as divine word, when in all likely it isn't, causes a lot of bad.

LOL, I feel like I'm repeating myself because I talk about this very topic so much, even on here in another thread. I'm really into this because it will actually (hopefully) be my career one day...I'm studying psychology and hope to go into the psychology of religion in how it affects our lives, characters, decisions, beliefs, etc.

It's just my opinion that if someone is going to literally shape their lives by a book, they should do research on the validity, truthfulness and reasonability of that book. And when we only find information to support what we believe, that's biased. When it comes down to it, the bible can be taken as nothing but folklore and myths...and this isn't all bad because that's what we have shaped our lives after. Read some Joseph Campbell or Carl Jung regarding myths....myths aren't necessarily untrue all the time, they're just not 100% fact and they give us models to live by. But when people start putting "God said so" on the text, then it becomes almost dangerous.

Find a good "history of the bible" book, it will tell you how it was all composed, where the books came from, etc. And ask yourself a question, if the bible is so right....why are there so many other religions, some of them a lot older than Christianity, that don't follow it? And how did we get along so long without it? Yeah, it's been around a long time and the most read book, but that's because of the politics involved in my opinion, you start killing and successfully conquering under it's name, people are going to read it. With the history of crusades, missionaries, Inquisition...those alone tell you why Christianity and the bible are so 'popular'.

LOL..I'll shutup now....rambling done with.

Posted by Seek In Shadows LOL..I'll shutup now....rambling done with.

No no...keep it up.

You're one of the few people who offer a reasonable argument free of dogma and orthodoxy.

Yes, the Bible has gone through many changes throughout the years, but that doesn't prevent God from using it to impact the [willing] reader. The main points of the Bible as a whole remain despite the numerous changes.

Posted by Seek In Shadows This isn't the case, the bible is used to back up a lot of hate as well..oppression against women, hatred to homosexuals, racism....

Hmmm. You could choose to interpret it that way if you wished. In the stories, Jesus spoke to women when the social norms dictated not to. He also worked with them and respected them when other men of the time did not. He demonstrated that one's race did not matter. As for "hatred" to homosexuals, lots of people get stuck on the fact that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, and they then conclude that it must also mean to hate homosexuals. But it doesn't say that. Think of the "hate the sin, love the sinner" adage.

Posted by Seek In Shadows It's just my opinion that if someone is going to literally shape their lives by a book, they should do research on the validity, truthfulness and reasonability of that book.

Yes, they should definately do the research rather then blindly following any book! I have enough confidence in the research I have done, and in my life experiences so far, to base my life on it. Interesting discussion, although I doubt any of us are about to change our minds after reading the others' arguments.

Posted by Seek In Shadows And ask yourself a question, if the bible is so right....why are there so many other religions, some of them a lot older than Christianity, that don't follow it?

Well... heh. Same question about any religion! The answer is that people are free to choose their own beliefs.

Posted by Seek In Shadows And how did we get along so long without it?

One does not need a Bible in order to be a Christian.

Posted by katwoman One does not need a Bible in order to be a Christian.

Can't.....resist....jab....

Some would say one would be a better Christian without it.

Okay, now that that's over with...

The Egyptian connexion is an interesting one. Moses spent his young life in Egypt learning science, alchemy, and religion from Egyptian priests. It wouldn't be at all hard to imagine that he could have taken basic tenets from Egyptian culture and applied them (for his own purposes??) to the Jewish people.

Posted by Noah Vale Can't.....resist....jab.... Some would say one would be a better Christian without it. Okay, now that that's over with... The Egyptian connexion is an interesting one. Moses spent his young life in Egypt learning science, alchemy, and religion from Egyptian priests. It wouldn't be at all hard to imagine that he could have taken basic tenets from Egyptian culture and applied them (for his own purposes??) to the Jewish people.

Agreed. It's kinda like how a hostage will suddenly find his/her captor terribly sexy after years of being mistreated by them, cruel whips and all.

Posted by Seek In Shadows In other words: "you are not special, you are the all singing, all dancing shit of the world" Gotta love Fight Club.

What a refreshing outlook on life. So original.

Gotta love a worldview based on a novel written by the worlds biggest wanker.

How about Jehovah Witnesses, to I would say that they are intolerate of other religions as they try to impose their doctrins and try to convert everyone.

Posted by Turbotrainz How about Jehovah Witnesses, to I would say that they are intolerate of other religions as they try to impose their doctrins and try to convert everyone.

Very true. I used to tell them I was Jewish and to respect my faith and kindly leave me alone. That only caused them to come around weekly to convert me. I finally discovered that telling them to, "F&#k off, I'm off to donate blood, donate a portion of my liver to a Satanist, and I'm going to sick the dog on you" put me on their list of houses to avoid. They now visit every house on the street except mine.

They always tell my neighbour (spelled correctly, Irish) that she will burn in hell for following the Catholic church. What ever happened to,"Judge ye not lest you be judged?" Nothing more than a cult like the breakaway sects of the LDS.