Posted by katwoman It may sound harsh, but yes.

Harsh? Sounds fucking discriminatory to me. Fuck the secret handshake bullshit...if it's membership you want, fuggedaboudit.

*No smoking
*No weapons
*Employee access only
*U.S. citizens only
*Adults 18 and over
*You must be this tall to ride
*Members only
*Shoes and shirt required
*Ticket required at gate
etc.

Rules and limitations are a part of everyday life. Why would they not be a part of religion?

Posted by katwoman *No smoking *No weapons *Employee access only *U.S. citizens only *Adults 18 and over *You must be this tall to ride *Members only *Shoes and shirt required *Ticket required at gate etc. Rules and limitations are a part of everyday life. Why would they not be a part of religion?

Groucho Marx mentioned something about not wanting to belong to any club that would have him as a member.

Heaven: Exclusive to Christians Only™ kinda fits that bill. Why the fuck would I want to spend eternity hanging out with sanctimonious assholes who'd deny me the priviledge of chillin with My Creator just because I don't wear the same brand of faith?

I honestly hope Jesus comes back and sues the pricks who stole his name and made Heaven theirs and theirs alone.

Posted by katwoman Rules and limitations are a part of everyday life. Why would they not be a part of religion?

Exclusionary policies are not within the philosophy which is portrayed of Jesus in the Bible. Now whether anything is actually true in the Bible or not is neither here nor there. Instead, it should simply be realized that any person who believes in Christianity should realize that God and company would accept any person. Hell is a refusal of God, no?

Conversely, when we die, our ashes could decompose, our atoms are regenerated into new life, and the world keeps turning. As somebody who is unsure of their beliefs, who doesn't ascribe their beliefs to any particular religion, and who appreciates Science, I think that the cycle of life is heaven on earth.

So, uh, I guess if you're made atoms, which you are, you get to take part in the celebration.

The defense of Christianity is based in the Bible.
The Bible was written by people, for people.
Inspiration is a moot point.
All humans are flawed in their thinking and are self-serving in nature.

On top of that:

The Bible has been through many editing stages in which books were added and removed and censored and abridged etc etc.

I can't base my life of something like that, and I sure can't trust an eternal existence to something that has been tampered with so much.

---sorry for fragmented thoughts, but this is a weird subject for me to address without ranting (which is the last thing this thread needs!).

Posted by ndillon31 Exclusionary policies are not within the philosophy which is portrayed of Jesus in the Bible. Instead, it should simply be realized that any person who believes in Christianity should realize that God and company would accept any person. Hell is a refusal of God, no?

How so? There are conditional verses regarding eternal destiny in the Bible, which would, of course, exclude some people. (if x occurs in your life, then y is the result, and such structures)

Of course God would accept any person if they were willing to follow him. As you said, hell would be a refusal of God. KublaKahn asked me "If I'm NOT a Christian...and I willingly choose NOT to be a Christian, I am denied access to Heaven™?" and I said yes that is correct. ...


And I think that most Christians would completely agree with you on the bodies decomposing and turning into new life. Heh, I don't know who wouldn't agree with that fact! But most Christians do not believe one's physical body will ever actually enter heaven. So I think I must have missed your point on the regeneration thing... (unless it was only to say you believe that the process is "heaven on earth," rather than heaven in another place)

Posted by katwoman Of course God would accept any person if they were willing to follow him. As you said, hell would be a refusal of God. KublaKahn asked me "If I'm NOT a Christian...and I willingly choose NOT to be a Christian, I am denied access to Heaven™?" and I said yes that is correct. ...

I meant willfully denying "God" after death.

And I think that most Christians would completely agree with you on the bodies decomposing and turning into new life. Heh, I don't know who wouldn't agree with that fact! But most Christians do not believe one's physical body will ever actually enter heaven. So I think I must have missed your point on the regeneration thing... (unless it was only to say you believe that the process is "heaven on earth," rather than heaven in another place)

Yes, that was my point: unadulterated, tangible, scientific beauty.

Posted by ndillon31 I meant willfully denying "God" after death.

Just trying to get on the same track here: If a person willfully denies God after death, they will go where? (you mentioned both that hell is a refusal of God, and that Christianity should realize God and company would accept any person...)

Lemmie get this straight:

Posted by katwoman If a person willfully denies God after death, they will go where?

If a person is dead, they ain't gonna be denying anything Especially God. I mean...He's either there or He isn't. And once you're dead, you gots nuthin to say 'bout it anyway.

I know, that's what I'm trying to clarify from ndillon's post.

If a person is dead, they ain't gonna be denying anything Especially God. I mean...He's either there or He isn't. And once you're dead, you gots nuthin to say 'bout it anyway.

My post was entirely hypothetical considering I don't really believe in an afterworld "heaven concept. However, to say that you know that someone cannot "choose God" or "deny God" upon death is ludicrous to assert with complete certainity. I cannot disprove heaven; I cannot prove it's existence. The same goes for any "life" after death.


And back to what katwoman originally said:

Posted by katwoman Of course God would accept any person if they were willing to follow him. As you said, hell would be a refusal of God. KublaKahn asked me "If I'm NOT a Christian...and I willingly choose NOT to be a Christian, I am denied access to Heaven™?" and I said yes that is correct. ...

My response was very simple. I was saying how according to the inclusivity of Christ in the Bible, it would only seem logical that God would accept all people upon dying. Therefore, when somebody willfully chooses not to be a Christian during their life, it does not impede their ability to get into heaven.

The refusal of God I was referring to would come after death. Meaning, if an individual refused to accept entrance to Heaven, they would be met with an alternate fate, hell (or otherwise.)



Anyways, I feel completely absurd trying to piece together a logical argument involving Religion. Only dogmatic stubbornness can convince someone that their view is wholly accurate. As I've heard before: blind faith is still blind.

What's interesting, is that if you really think about it, that if you have to be Christian to get to Heaven, then Jesus and the apostles were all screwed. They were all still Jewish. And so were the people that existed for 1000s of years before Christ came along.

Christianity is a name put to a belief system, nothing more. The ideas they had were nothing more than other ideas that had been around for 1000s of years.

There is no proof that Christ even truly existed.

No proof that was he is to reported to have said in the Bible was even truly said.

And, I find it hard to believe that a God who demands you to be one way would have created this world with so much diversity and would have not given us some type of set rules from the beginning...which he did not no matter how much anyone wants to believe he did.

Why would he have waited as long as he did to send his 'son' to show us how to truly be?

And why did he put his 'son' in one small part of the world, why didn't he show up everywhere....in the Americas to the Indians for example? And you are to tell me that because Europeans didn't conquer and spread Christianity to the Americas until the what, the 1500s, that all the Native Americans were perishing in hell becuase they were ignorant of Christ until then. BS.

Even more so, why did he wait so long to even contact people like Abraham and let them know that he was the one, true God when polytheism has been around for 1000s of years before monotheism.

If the system is that flawed, it makes no sense to me why an all powerful, all knowing God would have such a system.

And, it only becomes not flawed when you grasp onto half truths and unproved information and that of which ocurred over 1500 that was greatly subjective.

This kind of crap about you have to be this way to do this pisses me off. Just because man put a definition on how to be doesn't mean that is the way it truly has to be. Thousands of years from now, Christianity won't even be the religion of the majority. Religion is an ever changing dynamic of human existence....as long as you are one who exists within the laws of nature (which is the only true religion in my opinion), God doesn't give a crap what you choose to call it.

...and given that God has to oversee the whole damned Universe means that S/He has likely a very busy schedule. Some small little dot at the fringe of some minor galaxy in the ghetto portion of the Great Cosmos isn't, in my view, going to get a whole lot of attention.

Just to pick a few of those points:

Posted by Seek In Shadows ...Jesus and the apostles were all screwed. They were all still Jewish.

They weren't screwed -- you just have to believe that Jesus was God's son, which I'm sure the apoetc. Many Jews are Christians (i know a few)!

Posted by Seek In Shadows Why would he have waited as long as he did to send his 'son' to show us how to truly be? And why did he put his 'son' in one small part of the world, why didn't he show up everywhere....in the Americas to the Indians for example? And you are to tell me that because Europeans didn't conquer and spread Christianity to the Americas until the what, the 1500s, that all the Native Americans were perishing in hell becuase they were ignorant of Christ until then. BS.

Good questions; I've wondered the timing and location myself. No one can answer those questions except God. Although, what you say about Native Americans perishing in hell because they didn't know who Christ was... see my earlier post about how people who've never seen a church or heard of "Christ," "The Bible," etc. can still go to heaven.

Posted by Seek In Shadows If the system is that flawed, it makes no sense to me why an all powerful, all knowing God would have such a system. And, it only becomes not flawed when you grasp onto half truths and unproved information and that of which ocurred over 1500 that was greatly subjective.

I don't think it's supposed to make sense to us! I would never believe in a God whom I could completely understand, because that would put me on the same level on him. It's clear to me that he is who the Bible says he is; therefore, I will take his word for the parts I don't understand. Faith is a crucial element.


And KK, I'm assuming you know that Bible-believing Christians would disagree with you on the significance of "small little dots" in the universe.

Posted by katwoman Just to pick a few of those points: They weren't screwed -- you just have to believe that Jesus was God's son, which I'm sure the apoetc. Many Jews are Christians (i know a few)!

I assume, then, that there are a few Christians who are Jews.

And KK, I'm assuming you know that Bible-believing Christians would disagree with you on the significance of "small little dots" in the universe.

Agreed. But if God made the whole damned place to begin with (the universe is expanding, doncha know...meaning that God's job (Job?) description is also expanding...meaning that he's gonna need another assistant to help get through the day), I have a sneaking suspicion that S/He delegates a certain amount of authority to underlings.

S/He being God and all...The Boss. The CEO.

I have a hard time understanding the arrogance that is necessary to claim that God is especially interested in the goings on of a species that's primarily interested in destruction of it's world/environment/other species...and, further, a species that is primarily interested in asserting socially constructed moral orthodoxy on 'unbelievers' with threats of eternal damnation.

If God was really interested in preserving Her/His divine message, S/He would have killed us all off eons ago. The Bugs would be in charge now. S/He gave us a chance and we've fucked up. Badly.

Move on...give the Bugs their due.

heh. Bugs are amazing -- they work much harder than I do!

The Bible does say that God clothes the flowers and provides for the birds. That's stooping pretty low for a god.

To answer the original question: No.

[EDIT: Yes]

Posted by katwoman Many Jews are Christians (i know a few)!

I disagree. If you accept Christ as your saviour and Messiah, you no longer accept your beliefs as a Jew and therefore, are no longer, spiritually, a Jew. You are still Jewish by birth but most definitely not by faith.

Posted by Father Maurice Lester I disagree. If you accept Christ as your saviour and Messiah, you no longer accept your beliefs as a Jew and therefore, are no longer, spiritually, a Jew. You are still Jewish by birth but most definitely not by faith.

The beliefs of the Christianized Jew do not change except that they believe that Christ is the long awaited Messiah. nothing in their religion changes. It's just extending. They are still spiritually a Jew because Jews are still set apart from the Gentiles biblically right until the second coming. The bible speaks of Jews who believe in Christ as Messiah in Revelations.

Posted by journeylady The beliefs of the Christianized Jew do not change except that they believe that Christ is the long awaited Messiah. nothing in their religion changes. It's just extending. They are still spiritually a Jew because Jews are still set apart from the Gentiles biblically right until the second coming. The bible speaks of Jews who believe in Christ as Messiah in Revelations.

Christianized Jews? Sounds like one of those under-body treatments you get to keep rust off your car.