Posted by DevilC I would venture an educated guess that few, if any, who post here have the background knowledge on this topic I have.

So are you the Bubba with the "Bomb Mecca" sticker on the back of your 1986 F350?

What makes you qualified?? Spent some time in one Arab land with the military?
I spent years living in Sweden so I guess that makes me an expert on all Europeans.

Posted by DevilC fictitious argument? Nothing I said was incorrect madame. How many years have you spent living in the Middle East? How many years of your life have you spend devoted to this problem set? I would venture an educated guess that few, if any, who post here have the background knowledge on this topic I have. If you look at the religion and its leaders in a purely historical context you get a more negative picture of the Islamic faith.

Yes, a fictitious argument, because I said nothing of what the Muslim scholars would think of my suggestion. I'm very sure that if you were to better understand what I am proposing that you would see that scholars of Muslim religion would not take issue with it. As far as Muslim scholars are concerned, I highly doubt that they would disapprove of the breakdown of such gross ethnocentric views that the American public holds.

What I have suggested is not a matter of purely studying a text in its historical context, it is about examining it from different perspectives. That usually results with people having more flexible opinions; the kind that don't lead to holy wars. Christianity has a bloody past too, and that paints just as ugly a picture. Should we hide the past from people?

You'll have to excuse me if I give sweet fuck all about what you believe your privilege is talking on this subject. You've failed to create an ethos that I buy, and failed to identify what aspects of "this (the Middle East, Islam, Bigotry... What?) problem set" you are so well versed in. Should you wish to construct something that will sell an audience you might wish to show less prejudice, better understanding of concepts (in general), and rely less on attacking the character, in terms of experience or knowledge base, of others.

Give yourself another pat on the back though, it's endearing in some strange way. Sadly, I've got a mountain of work on my desk, so you'll have to tell me how right you are another time.

Posted by Father Maurice Lester So are you the Bubba with the "Bomb Mecca" sticker on the back of your 1986 F350? What makes you qualified?? Spent some time in one Arab land with the military? I spent years living in Sweden so I guess that makes me an expert on all Europeans.

I would never ever drive a truck. . . .
See:
http://www.uer.ca/...urrpage=1&pp#post7
I never donned an "Ayahtollah is an Assahola" or a "Burn Binny Burn" shirt.
I spent a lot of time living in a lot of strange lands.
Yes, you are probably better positioned to discuss Swedish affairs than the rest of us here.

Posted by Asher Archive You'll have to excuse me if I give sweet fuck all about what you believe your privilege is talking on this subject. You've failed to create an ethos that I buy, and failed to identify what aspects of "this (the Middle East, Islam, Bigotry... What?) problem set" you are so well versed in. Should you wish to construct something that will sell an audience you might wish to show less prejudice, better understanding of concepts (in general), and rely less on attacking the character, in terms of experience or knowledge base, of others.

Ditto. You apply the same pretense to whatever you post here too.
I began my approach to this, years ago, with the same academic detachment. Experience has, perhaps, jaded me.

Speaking back to another response:
One could, and many have, write volumes about the intolerance of Christians.
They are, however, missing a very important point, and that is that they fail to focus on the fundamental theological doctrines (or even basic teachings) of Christianity and Islam (not VERSUS Islam).
It is quite right to criticize the behavior of Christians in the past, but do not forget that their behavior does not at all reflect what Christ himself taught.
However badly Christians have behaved from time to time throughout history, their actions would never have been sanctioned by Jesus.
In contrast, there is indeed a scriptural basis (even encouragement) for the violent and intolerant (by our standards anyway!) ways that Muslims behave, because such violence is exactly what is taught by the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad.
The intolerance shown toward Christians and Jews throughout the Muslim world has a scriptural basis in the 9th Surah of the Quran.
That very same Surah, in verse 29 can be used as a scriptural basis for the Pact of Umar.

Consider further that, until the days of Constantine, Christians were a persecuted minority in the Roman Empire.
This persecution forced them to work out philosophically and theologically what it meant to practice one's faith in a minority setting.
Contrast with Islam which, from 622 on was almost always in a position of power in the lands it occupied.
Early Islam grew explosively, from 632 - 732, into an empire.
Islam never had to develop a theology of minority and tolerance.
The Quoran and other early Islamic texts just make the fundamental assumption that the Umma will be in political power.

Posted by DevilC It is quite right to criticize the behavior of Christians in the past, but do not forget that their behavior does not at all reflect what Christ himself taught. However badly Christians have behaved from time to time throughout history, their actions would never have been sanctioned by Jesus.

If you read the Bible there are dozens of instances advocating violence [see: Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy, in particular]. Those instances have allowed Christians to justify all kinds of horrible acts, including the treatment of women for the past thousand years or so. Jesus is not all there is to Christianity, at any rate; though I am not implying he was all roses. You keep going back to this notion that I've somehow implied that Islam is a religion of "peace", which I have not. My point is that Christianity does no better at "peace" than Islam. The God of the Old Testament, which Christians seem to love to distance themselves from until they need to demonstrate why something is wrong (I'm thinking Haggard and his thousands of followers) is, as Prof. Richard Dawkins has said, a "psychotic monster".

"[T]heir actions would never have been sanctioned by Jesus" makes far too many assumptions based on Christian faith as truth for me to even address. What you are implying with the persecution of early Christians is beyond me, because regardless of that, they've ruled Europe and America since ~350CE. Last time I looked around Christians were not so grass roots any longer: http://en.wikipedi...tion_by_Christians

You also don't understand that acting as if you have privilege to talk about a subject, and disagreeing are very different matters. All of the information that I've used is very well documented in the academic world, and if you take particular issue with its validity, then, you might wish to publish an opposing article in scholarly journals. Otherwise, all you are telling me is that you just know that you're right, that you know more, and you completely understand everyone else's knowledge base. That is not an assumption that I am about to make about someone posting on UER, which is why your insistence that you really know means very little. Sadly for you, I don't rely on appeals from ethos or pathos, what I've given you are appeals of logos. Worse, the good reasons are validated by scholarly works, which are probably available through your public library.

That said, you continue to ignore what has been said, and instead insist on talking about yourself. How uninteresting.

Oh, for heaven's sake, you guys.

Take a look at how this Board used to be in the first few dozen threads, compared to now.

Downhill, baby! *rolls eyes*

The key difference between x-tianity and islam is the reformation. x-tians have a long history of violence and torture, but they did wake up from the dark ages - just a little. They stopped torturing people just for wondering the origin of the stars and such, or trying to convert everyone (oops, still have not got that one licked) (see Inquisition, Crusades). Instead of saying that it is okay for islam because the x-tians did it is not a good basis for argument (see two wrongs do not make a right - circa preschool)

Islam is a younger religion (1,400 yrs or so) that has yet to have a reformation to reconcile thier first century view of the world with our reality. The best we can hope for is that Islam we be reformed as the jews and x-tians have done.

Islam is NOT a peaceful religion any more than the grand inquistitor was just passing out hugs.

If you disagree, by all means tell us why - after you read the koran.

Unfortunately this debate, in the greater sense, is populated with people that claim to be "moderates", but who are really muslims that have not read the book they claim is thier god's infallible truth. They are clearly morally bankrupt and provide cover and tacit approval for those that would put you to the fire for being in infidel. There are also those x-tians that believe that they are promoting tolerance by perpetuating ignorance in claiming that islam is peaceful. (ask Chamberlain how appeasement worked with the nazis)

It is also more difficult to do this with a violent, missionary religion comprised of, on one hand, a vast amount of illiterate people who are engaged in, or support violent conflict against the west, and on the other hand a large sect of westernized, dissaffected youths who, while literate, have not read their own book - and yet still claim it is peaceful.

Islam is by definition intolerant and violent. Islamist fascists believe that they are right. To call yourself a muslim is to also say that you are not of another group - the infidel. The only good x-tian is a dead one or a converted one.


"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. . . . f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers"(Koran 2:190–93).

Posted by Asher Archive 1) My point is that Christianity does no better at "peace" than Islam. 2) What you are implying with the persecution of early Christians is beyond me, because regardless of that, they've ruled Europe and America since ~350CE. 3) You also don't understand that acting as if you have privilege to talk about a subject, and disagreeing are very different matters. All of the information that I've used is very well documented in the academic world, and if you take particular issue with its validity, then, you might wish to publish an opposing article in scholarly journals. 4) That said, you continue to ignore what has been said, and instead insist on talking about yourself. How uninteresting.

1) You are absolutely wrong on point #1. There is no comparison whatsoever. The blood spilled and lives taken by islamists continues to add up. The page you posted from wikipedia was comical. So you have the crusades and the inquisition? That's all you've got?
You seriously believe that women are treated poorly in the west?
I thought Dharfor was the new progressive academic cause? Are you aware of the dynamics there?

2) Of course you missed my point, you do not listen. You cherry pick talking points and look for something to argue with. My point was that Christianity spent years as the underdog the first 3 centuries of its existence. Islam did not grow from a position of weakness and hence approaches tolerance and respect for other faiths MUCH differently.

3) That is you in a nutshell. I seriously doubt you would ever read anything I have written or published. You do not study such matters as a philosophy or women's studies major. It is brutally obvious where you are coming from and how you have been indoctrinated.

4) That's you once again.

Posted by DevilC 1) You are absolutely wrong on point #1. There is no comparison whatsoever. The blood spilled and lives taken by islamists continues to add up. The page you posted from wikipedia was comical. So you have the crusades and the inquisition? That's all you've got? You seriously believe that women are treated poorly in the west? I thought Dharfor was the new progressive academic cause? Are you aware of the dynamics there?

I disagree, and believe that there is a comparison. There is a lot of blood on Christianity and those were just a few examples, if you're educated as you claim to be I will assume you know how to access and use a library. I don't have time to nit-pick, I think they're both terrible excuses for violence. 100 or 1000 deaths, it's bullshit, imho. You don't have to agree, of course, but stereotyping doesn't make a point.

You seriously believe that women are treated poorly in the west?

Yes, I do. Before you swing that to "as bad", no. Just no.

2) Of course you missed my point, you do not listen. You cherry pick talking points and look for something to argue with. My point was that Christianity spent years as the underdog the first 3 centuries of its existence. Islam did not grow from a position of weakness and hence approaches tolerance and respect for other faiths MUCH differently.

I'm not listening at all, actually. I understand your point, but I don't think that it all that there is to the issue. Sorry.

3) That is you in a nutshell. I seriously doubt you would ever read anything I have written or published. You do not study such matters as a philosophy or women's studies major. It is brutally obvious where you are coming from and how you have been indoctrinated.

You lose "Guess My Major". You also haven't posted your name, anywhere you've written, or pointed me in the direction. Of course, if you did it wouldn't mean that I'd have to agree. I've love to hear my history though, I think it'd make a much better story than reality.

4) That's you once again.

What I'm sayin' is "nuh-uh, it's you".

Posted by DevilC 1) You are absolutely wrong on point #1.

Bullshit.

There is no comparison whatsoever.

If you're going to suggest that 'Islamists' have killed more people than Christians, I'm going to shit into a paper bag and mail it to you.

The blood spilled and lives taken by islamists continues to add up. The page you posted from wikipedia was comical. So you have the crusades and the inquisition? That's all you've got?

No. I've got about one hundred years of recent history that places a Western finger on the Idiot Switch viz. a viz. Arab/Muslim slaughter.

You seriously believe that women are treated poorly in the west?

Relative to what? Mid-east countries? I'll concede that point, but if I compare the treatment of women in the West against the Values of the West™ viz. a viz. Rights and Freedoms, then I will absolutely say that women are STILL treated poorly, compared to men. Especially white men.

Christianity spent years as the underdog the first 3 centuries of its existence. Islam did not grow from a position of weakness and hence approaches tolerance and respect for other faiths MUCH differently.

What the fuck are you talking about?

You do not study such matters as a philosophy or women's studies major.

Do you?

It is brutally obvious where you are coming from and how you have been indoctrinated.

Backatcha, baby. I don't know what you've been reading/writing, but I can't wait to dig in. Name names...I want your reading list.

Posted by Asher Archive What I'm sayin' is "nuh-uh, it's you".

That is all you are capable of saying.
You can, and do dress it up wonderfully. . .. but in the end, you hit it on the head, your replies are, essentially "nuh-uh, it's you." All fluff - no substance.

Posted by DevilC That is all you are capable of saying. You can, and do dress it up wonderfully. . .. but in the end, you hit it on the head, your replies are, essentially "nuh-uh, it's you." All fluff - no substance.

So what you're saying is you've got nothing?

Posted by Asher Archive So what you're saying is you've got nothing?

Well madame, I am certainly not going to beat my head against a brick wall.
You have nothing it seems, nothing but circular logic.
It always comes around to some degree of equivocation regarding the evils of the Western culture.
How did this turn around into a comparative study of Xtianity?
Why did you inject the issue of women's rights?
That is all distracting red-herring

Posted by KublaKhan I'm going to shit into a paper bag and mail it to you. Backatcha, baby. I don't know what you've been reading/writing, but I can't wait to dig in. Name names...I want your reading list.

Here is a short reading list based upon what's sitting on my desk. When you understand what you are talking about we can discuss the matter. It is a pretty well rounded collection:
"The Holy Qur'an, Text, Translation & Commentary" Abdullah Yusuf Ali
"Manual of Islam" Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller
"What the Koran Really Says: Language, Text, and Commentary" Ibn Warraq
"The Quest for the Historical Muhammad" Ibn Warraq
"Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources" Martin Lings
"The Sword of the Prophet: History, Theology, Impact" by Srdja Trifkovic
"The Force of Reason" Oriana Fallaci
"Treatise on the Foundations of Islamic Jurisprudence" Al-Shafi'i's Risala

And hey, if you wanna poop in a bag and mail it to me, PM me, I'll give you my address. . . . .

Posted by DevilC Well madame, I am certainly not going to beat my head against a brick wall. You have nothing it seems, nothing but circular logic. It always comes around to some degree of equivocation regarding the evils of the Western culture. How did this turn around into a comparative study of Xtianity? Why did you inject the issue of women's rights? That is all distracting red-herring

If you really want to invoke the logical fallacy god, then you had best consider how often you've fallen back on using ad hominem attacks. It doesn't really make a case for you to call a logical fallacy when you've been doing it all along. At that, I believe that the comparison to Christianity is important because it puts into perspective your own culture as well. It is really easy to become ethnocentric and start attributing evils to the "other", but it is really difficult to own up to what has been happening or is happening around you. My main issue is with this notion that it is just Islam that gives people the right to act like lunatics, it isn't. All major religions allow people to act out in ways that are an affront to others human rights. Losing perspective on that is, imho, a dangerous thing. It's fine to feel a need to address the issues surrounding Islam, but there are still issues here. The issue of women's rights is just an example of the issues that still exist today in Western culture. I could have said same-sex rights, racism, or a host of other issues. If you'll recall, what you took issue with me saying was:

"Looking at other perspectives is a great way to attack and destroy a lot of the bigotry that surrounds religion, and culture. I think that it would be particularly helpful for this kind of perception of Islam."

That was my entire point, and what I have been saying is not at all red herring argument. I don't mean to confuse or distract you, it's just a complicated issue that seemed to me to require examples for clarification, as you did not seem to grasp my approach. What I've said is hardly a note on the evils of the West, and I'm not sure where you get that notion. Saying that is a straw man argument. You really don't want to play the logical fallacy game, because you're rather guilty yourself.

The main issue here has been that you seem to feel that other world views are irrelevant or wrong because you've traveled in the army and read books, or something. Sadly, that is not the case and I cannot take an argument based on your own assurance that you are correct seriously. It isn't anything against you, but I tend to believe that there is a lot more to this issue than you're presenting. You don't have to agree with me, but you are very wrong to discount everyone else's view as "devoid of content" because you don't agree. That kind of statement only demonstrates a lack of regard for anyone who does not agree with you.

I'm going to bow out now, because I feel this is a waste of time. You're clearly not interested in any perspective that I might offer, as you've stated that you found no content in my messages, when there very much is.

Such is the 'net; everyone is an expert.

Asher, your style of rhetoric is very familiar, it centers around the ". . .And you are lynching Negroes . . ." retort of Cold War times. You are truly the master of the logical fallacy you have accused me of here. . . . ad hominum & ad personum attack. I do not remember hearing or reading one constructive nor substantive statement from you on this matter.
I never took issue with the need to view beliefs and values independently. You seem to have a problem with doing that and seem incapable of that.
You have both contradicted yourself and underscored one of the central issue of this particular debate, world-wide: that there can be no rational and detached discussion of Islam - it is always a deflection and a return to attacks on other faiths and a re-hashing of the wrongs of other faiths and cultures. This philosophical coddling is dangerous.
I do not think I could say it better than here: http://www.uer.ca/...urrpage=1&pp#post4
And as to your other comments:
Women and minorities are not oppressed in the West. You are only as oppressed as you want to be.

Posted by DevilC Women and minorities are not oppressed in the West. You are only as oppressed as you want to be.

^{(psst...crackhead alert)}

As fer all them fancy books you listed...do you move your lips when you read?

Kidding.

Here's something you may want to check out, you know...to clear your head and strengthen your understanding of the East/West divide. I highly recommend it.

Jihad vs. McWorld: How Globalism and Tribalism are Reshaping the World, Benjamin R. Barber. ISBN 0-345-38304-4

and

Islamic Peril: Media and Global Violence, Karim H. Karim. ISBN 1-55164-172-0

Good luck. Let me know how you make out.

Posted by DevilC Women and minorities are not oppressed in the West. You are only as oppressed as you want to be.

You're not worth a moment of my time.

And yet you've wasted so much already. . . .
I take it, then, that you choose to feel rather oppressed, that's a shame.
You're living at the pinnacle of human civilization, it's not so bad.

You know, pointing out the bazillion evils that Christianity committed in the past does jack shit to help with the problem of Islam today. And there is a BIG problem within Islam today.

All drawing comparison's to Christianity's past does is deflect attention from a serious issue that needs to be addressed: rampant, worldwide Islamic extremist violence.