Posted by tekriter Clearly I'm off on my estimation of this stuff. How about you explain it to me (since you know more than anyone I've ever met) so I can get a handle on how "fire" and "eternal fire" and "never goes out" and "lake of fire" really mean something else?

Read my above post.

Because many of the references to fire and being burned in fire or the lake of fire (in the New Testament), are references to the Greek "gehenna" and being destroyed like the garbage in Gehenna outside of Jerusalem.

You keep pointing out fire, but you're completely missing what it means. It's to be destroyed by it.

Show me where it says, specifically, in the Bible that you suffer fiery torment in Hell? Show me where it says, specifically, in the Bible that you burn forever in Hell?

I guarantee you can't, because it's just not in there.

You don't know what you're talking about, dude.

Posted by White Rabbit Because many of the references to fire and being burned in fire or the lake of fire (in the New Testament), are references to the Greek "gehenna" and being destroyed like the garbage in Gehenna outside of Jerusalem. You don't know what you're talking about, dude.

You may know what you are talking about, but you are not explaining it well.

It seems that even if you are correct, that it is being used allegorically as a literary device - for imagery. It would be like saying that if you don't believe in my spaghetti monster you will go to a place LIKE the local garbage dump (which is on fire) for ever.

If it was literal, how nice would it be to be thrown into a burning garbage pile that burned for months at a time,perhaps just for gathering sticks on the sabbath or something? Of course you would be burned alive and dead forever, which is, like, a really long time...

But since you are clearly so well educated (and know a shit-ton about stuff) you have been able to see through the clever literary devices. Luckily, all christians are as well educated as you and would never scare the hell (irony noted) out of small children with visions of burning in an eternal hell for sinning (of course they always include the etymology of hell in all thier admonishments).

And bowing down to your everlasting expertise, what do you conclude is your point (other than I don't know what I'm talking about)? what's the "so what" of your neat little piece of trivia?

"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:29, quoting Jesus; see parallel passage in Mark 9:44, which adds, "where the fire never goes out.")

"Then he [the King] will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, Matthew 25:41)

"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-15)

It's so hard to reply to you if you keep changing your posts with the edit function.

I'm going to go ahead and say that forever is like a fire that never goes out. Eternal also means forever. A lake of fire is not unlike fiery.

Oh, I get it. Your having me on. Good one, dude.

Posted by tekriter It seems that even if you are correct, that it is being used allegorically as a literary device - for imagery. It would be like saying that if you don't believe in my spaghetti monster you will go to a place LIKE the local garbage dump (which is on fire) for ever.

Of COURSE it's a literary device. Gehenna comes from a frickin' trash dump for crying out loud. You think it means God throws the unsaved in a pit outside Jerusalem that doesn't even exist anymore?

"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:29, quoting Jesus; see parallel passage in Mark 9:44, which adds, "where the fire never goes out.") "Then he [the King] will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, Matthew 25:41) "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-15) It's so hard to reply to you if you keep changing your posts with the edit function. I'm going to go ahead and say that forever is like a fire that never goes out. Eternal also means forever. A lake of fire is not unlike fiery. Oh, I get it. Your having me on. Good one, dude.

No. You're just still not getting it. Or you just want to argue so you're grasping.

I didn't say show me where the fire doesn't go out. Eternal fire kinda implies that it's an eternal fire pretty obviously.

I said show me where it says someone will be burned for eternity. Show me where it says someone will suffer fiery torment in hell.

You can't, because it's not in there.

All the eternal fire does is consume them, obliterate them. There's evidence aplenty of that in the Bible.

People that believe that the Bible says people will burn forever in hell are believing what they've heard and been told. If you believe that, you're one of those people.

And it's not your fault. People have ALL KINDS of misconceptions about the Bible.

Take the trinity. Christians of all kinds believe in that. But there is NOTHING about it in the Bible at all. The word trinity doesn't even appear in it. There's not one single goddamn thing in the entire Bible that supports it, yet how many people think it does?

There's more, too. So, whatever. I'm not arguing for fun. You're just wrong.

Posted by tekriter It's so hard to reply to you if you keep changing your posts with the edit function.

Sorry. I tend to write stuff out WAY too fast and passionately and then I see things I missed or didn't write clearly when I reread it.

Actually, this thread gave me an idea. To show that I'm not patently pro-Christian, I'm gonna post a thread of other Bible misconceptions.

Posted by tekriter Oh, I get it. Your having me on. Good one, dude.

I can't help but think your the one putting on WR.

I think he's done a great job of explaining that, assuming your of a christian faith, the fires of hell exist and burn forever so that as the non-saved die off, they get tossed and they or better said, their SOUL, burns away, they die, period, kaput, they are no longer. If you will just open your mind a crack, and think about what his point is, it's simply that he's not arguing that the bible doesnt say there isnt some sort of firey hell, only that it doesnt say you/your soul, in some manner stays alive and lives in total burning pain or whatever forever and for eternity as it does that if "saved" your soul goes to heaven and you/your soul "lives" forever.

Posted by Arch-Image I think he's done a great job of explaining that, assuming your of a christian faith, the fires of hell exist and burn forever so that as the non-saved die off, they get tossed and they or better said, their SOUL, burns away, they die, period, kaput, they are no longer. If you will just open your mind a crack, and think about what his point is, it's simply that he's not arguing that the bible doesnt say there isnt some sort of firey hell, only that it doesnt say you/your soul, in some manner stays alive and lives in total burning pain or whatever forever and for eternity as it does that if "saved" your soul goes to heaven and you/your soul "lives" forever.

Puzzactly.

It's debatable whether or not the Bible is saying there's a literal eternal fire that people get thrown into (I personally think there's more evidence that it's not a literal fire), but...

As for the the issue of whether the unsaved suffer or not, I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming that it was meant to indicate complete destruction rather than suffering. There's a couple things here and there you can stretch to say that hell is a place of eternal suffering, but the vast majority indicates it means total and permanent destruction.

For that matter, consider this. If the writers of millennia-ago had wanted to talk about a place of eternal suffering, there's many types of things they could've used in addition to fire. People back then knew suffering that we've never experienced. There's hunger, injury, being cut to pieces, diseases, etc. Yet, they didn't really talk about those in relation to hell.

Now, consider your a millennia-ago writer and you want to indicate complete, permanent destruction. You would use fire, because that's pretty much the only source of complete destruction they had back then. And you would call it eternal, since death happens to everyone and it can't be reversed.

Posted by tekriter why does he have to be militant?

I think you got the wrong idea about where I was coming from in my post, which may not be entirely your fault.

When I say he is a "militant" atheist, I mean that he is an atheist who is interested in using logic and reason to persuade others of his beliefs.

What I do not mean is that there is anything wrong with this. In fact, I see his "mission" as honorable, if perhaps somewhat unproductive.

Posted by tekriter Are televangelists militant mono-theists?

Yes. Most televangelists whose television programmes I have had the displeasure of seeing have been extremely militant about their beliefs.

Posted by tekriter Are hindus militant poly-theists, or just the ones with websites?

Well, I haven't ever had a Hindu try to convert me to his or her belief system, so I guess you could say I am not very familiar with militant Hindus.


Cheers,
DrDeke

WR and Ter, I promise NEVER to argue religion with either you again. You both have spent waayyy tooo much time working along these lines for me to try and catch up.

Wow. Seriously, Ya'll are good.