I think it would be a good idea to change the name of this forum to Anti-Religious discussion.

After all, that's all that's ever really discussed here.

It would be nice to give the people coming in a little clue as to what this really is.

Lets be realistic, right?

How about 'A Round Table Discussion on Matters Related to Dogma, Zealotry, Faith, Spiritual Fulfillment, Personal Enlightenment, and Learning to Forgive Past-Misdeeds That Had Nothing to do With Me Personally Because It All Happened Thousands of Years Before I Was Born, Although Some Mis-Deeds Are Still Perpetrated in the Name of My Religion by People Bent On Divisional Hatred of The Other.'

Why don't we call it the anti- "bigoted, violence loving, root of all evil, believing in things that have no good reasons for believing them" discussion?

People who believe fantastic, supernatural things about the origin of the universe are all about religious freedom and tolerance until they realize that those freedoms are also extended to reasonable people questioning thier motivations for believing unreasonable things, or to people from competing groups of nonsense believers suggesting that they are right and therefore you are wrong.

I suppose your position is, and assuming you are being sarcastic, is that we should limit the standards of scrutiny for your ideas (like we all would, for instance, if I suggested that there was a diamond the size of a refridgerator in my backyard, that I just "knew" a teapot was orbiting mars, or that maybe the holocaust was a scam)on the basis of - what?

Is religious faith an untenable position? Does religion have a net bad effect on the world?

I am also assuming that you couldn't reply to my last post because you had nothing reasonable to say, so your rebuttal is here indirect.

Okay. I know the amputee thing is not fair. It's too hard to counter. Why don't you tell us how folks are supposed to decide what parts of the bible to ignore (due to violent suggestions, classifying women as possessions, or just plain being wrong) and what parts are the one true word of god?

Or perhaps you could give us a partial list of all the good religion does in the world?

Maybe just a few reasons why we should not criticise religion in the same way we do with any unreasonable ideas that folks try to propagate?

Religious Discussion/Bashing?

are you suggesting a forum bashing religious discussion? or religious bashing? Is that some form of dogmatic scrapping?

I don't see how saying that (or why) one doesn't believe in God or a specific religion is "bashing" any more than a Buddhist explaining that (or why) he believes in Buddhism would be "bashing" Christianity, Judaism, or any other religion...

DrDeke

I never said I thought it was bashing, for one thing.

I'm just commenting on the fact that what is mainly discussed in this forum is mostly arguments against religion.

The people who normally start threads here seem to be trying to provoke a reaction. I don't remember reading a thread in this forum that portrayed ANY religion in a positive light.

I never said that we should change what gets posted here, go ahead and post whatever you feel like.

All I said was that it would be fair to give people a little warning that chances are anyone who DOES believe in something will get openly and massively criticized here.

As to the Amputee question, I have plenty I could say on the subject, but I didn't really feel the need to bash my head off a brick wall yet again. I'll go back and try to give you something, just to prove that this thread is not my indirect and whiney way to say 'you're mean! I don't like you!' Which it really isn't.

Oh, but Kubla's name suggestion seems fair to me... just wordy.

Posted by journeylady All I said was that it would be fair to give people a little warning that chances are anyone who DOES believe in something will get openly and massively criticized here.

sort of like anyone that demands a little higher standard of evidence of the existence of a highly improbable deity before making major life choices based on said deity's book in our overly religious society?

Posted by tekriter Or perhaps you could give us a partial list of all the good religion does in the world?

Um... Christian charities? They do a massive, massive amount of good in the world.

The world as a whole would be better off without religion, but it would not be better off without Christianity.

And as an agnostic/borderline atheist, I have to pinch my nose when I admit that.

Posted by tekriter sort of like anyone that demands a little higher standard of evidence of the existence of a highly improbable deity before making major life choices based on said deity's book in our overly religious society?

Funny, I don't think I've ever criticised you for you beliefs, inferred that you were stupid or made any judgements on what you believed.

Posted by White Rabbit Um... Christian charities? They do a massive, massive amount of good in the world. The world as a whole would be better off without religion, but it would not be better off without Christianity. And as an agnostic/borderline atheist, I have to pinch my nose when I admit that.

Like the x-tian charities that pass out bible and teach abstinence to starving children who are dying of aids!

What possible benefit could any religious charity have that could not be had froma secular charity - like say medecins sans frontiers?

Posted by journeylady Funny, I don't think I've ever criticised you for you beliefs, inferred that you were stupid or made any judgements on what you believed.

What about when you call me unreasonable for believing in reason LOL? Or your whole dogmatic belief that I'm going to burn in hell for not following the teachings of some sky-god, who in all probability does not even exists?

You refer to me as "people like you," so how is that not judgmental? Who are people like me? People that refuse to believe ridiculous ideas about the universe in the face of things like proof and evidence?

Posted by tekriter What about when you call me unreasonable for believing in reason LOL?

Please OH PLEASE point out to me where I did that. Quote me, or better yet, link to the thread.

Here I'll get close fo you. in the 'why does god hate Amputees' thread I said:

Posted by Journeylady I'd like your definition of reasonable people please, is it the people who think like you do?

I don't believe I ever in there called you unreasonable OR refered to you as 'people like you.' I said 'people who think like you do.' refering, of course to the fact that I don't think like you do, which is why YOU said I was unreasonable.

Or your whole dogmatic belief that I'm going to burn in hell for not following the teachings of some sky-god, who in all probability does not even exists?

As far as I knew, thinking something but not mentioning it is not actually criticising.

Again, please go ahead, quote when I've said that and link to the thread and I'll apologize.

You refer to me as "people like you," so how is that not judgmental? Who are people like me? People that refuse to believe ridiculous ideas about the universe in the face of things like proof and evidence?

And one last time. Show me where I've done that.

Go ahead.

Posted by tekriter Like the x-tian charities that pass out bible and teach abstinence to starving children who are dying of aids! What possible benefit could any religious charity have that could not be had froma secular charity - like say medecins sans frontiers?

Oh, puh-LEASE. If you want to pretend that's all Christian charities do, then please don't let me stop you from sticking your fingers in your ears and going "La la la." Because I think you know as well as I do that Christian charities do an overwhelming amount of good in the world--no conversion to Christianity or Bible necessary.

And there's NOTHING to prevent secular charities from doing such good. It's just the sad fact of the matter that Christian charities contribute exponentially more than secular ones. Maybe that'll change one day, but it's the status quo for now.

And I don't actually disagree with you on Christianity or the things you've said. But your argument that religion does more harm than good in the world right now simply doesn't hold up when it comes to Christianity. As much as I dislike Christianity and it's oppressive, hypocritical, holier-than-thou beliefs, it DOES do more good in the world than bad. A couple hundred years ago? Not so much. Today? YES.

Posted by White Rabbit Because I think you know as well as I do that Christian charities do an overwhelming amount of good in the world--no conversion to Christianity or Bible necessary.

"Missionaries in the developing world waste a lot of time and money (not to mention the goodwill of non-christians) proselytizing to the needy; they spread innaccurate information about contraception and sexually transmitted disease and they withhold accurate information" Sam Harris

Posted by White Rabbit It's just the sad fact of the matter that Christian charities contribute exponentially more than secular ones. Maybe that'll change one day, but it's the status quo for now.

Prove it. Show me.

Of Countries contributing official development assistance, secular nations like The Netherlands (.82 of Gross National Income), Denmark (.81 of GNI), Sweden (.92 of GNI),and Norway (.93 of GNI) contribute, poroportionally, much more than more religious nations such as the US (.22 of GNI) or Italy (.29 of GNI) or Ireland (.41 of GNI).

Americans privately give at least $34 billion overseas—more than twice the US official foreign aid of $15 billion at that time:

foundations: 3%
Corporations: 5%
Private organizations: 10%
Universities and colleges: 2%
Religious organizations: 5%
Individual Donations: 48%

% of total foreign aid

Exponentially more?

The aid provided by religious organizations often comes with restrictive condidtions i.e. you can have this food if you let us build a church. I've spent more than two years of my life overseas involved in international aid programs and I've seen it in action. How about you?

Posted by White Rabbit And I don't actually disagree with you on Christianity or the things you've said. But your argument that religion does more harm than good in the world right now simply doesn't hold up when it comes to Christianity. As much as I dislike Christianity and it's oppressive, hypocritical, holier-than-thou beliefs, it DOES do more good in the world than bad. A couple hundred years ago? Not so much. Today? YES.

so, christianity is oppressive, hyprocritical, holier than thou, but it is essentially good? Consider the powerful christian view in the uS, that forms US foreign policy, that the isrealites have a god-given right to the holy land, and how that policy affects the chances for peace in the middle east. How good is that?

Randall Terry (of operation rescue) says: "I want you to just let a wave of hate wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hate wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal is a christian nation" That's good?

Fred Phelps: http://www.godhatesfags.com/ Good?

Christian resistance to education (ID lawsuits), science (religion teaches us that is is noble (Religion “teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding” – Richard Dawkins) and to health care (stem cell research). Are these good things?

Posted by tekriter "Missionaries in the developing world waste a lot of time and money (not to mention the goodwill of non-christians) proselytizing to the needy; they spread innaccurate information about contraception and sexually transmitted disease and they withhold accurate information" Sam Harris

Yeah, I'm sure ALL of them do that.

*rolls eyes*

Prove it. Show me.

Actually, I'm going to give you that one. I don't actually know that I'm wrong, but I guess I could be. Because I wasn't actually basing that statement on any figures that I can vividly recall, which should've been a red flag to not assume I'm right.

I was basing it on the fact that I can't name a single secular charity, other than Red Cross. I can probably tick off like a dozen Christian charities without thinking about it. Looking back, it doesn't mean that those charities contribute more, I just figured it was a safe assumption due to there seeming to be many more Christian charities than secular ones.

If I'm wrong on that one, so be it. I'll believe you.

But, I don't think it negates my overall point that Christian charities do a MASSIVE amount of good.

Of Countries contributing official development assistance, secular nations like The Netherlands (.82 of Gross National Income), Denmark (.81 of GNI), Sweden (.92 of GNI),and Norway (.93 of GNI) contribute, poroportionally, much more than more religious nations such as the US (.22 of GNI) or Italy (.29 of GNI) or Ireland (.41 of GNI).

It's nice to show the percentages of GNI of the countries, since it makes the USA look really bad and selfish.

However, what you left out is that in terms of actual dollars the USA gives more than twice as much as any other country. Nearly thirty billion dollars for 2005. Yeah, really, we should be giving a higher percentage than anyone else. But I wouldn't say that's nothing.

The aid provided by religious organizations often comes with restrictive condidtions i.e. you can have this food if you let us build a church. I've spent more than two years of my life overseas involved in international aid programs and I've seen it in action. How about you?

Nope, never have. And I'm sure it happens, but I doubt it happens in most cases or frequently. As hostile as the media is toward Christian groups, if it was extremely prevalent I tend to believe it'd be major news.

so, christianity is oppressive, hyprocritical, holier than thou, but it is essentially good? Consider the powerful christian view in the uS, that forms US foreign policy, that the isrealites have a god-given right to the holy land, and how that policy affects the chances for peace in the middle east. How good is that?

Yeah, Christianity has some major flaws (and I don't personally believe in it), but it's not bad. Or, at least, it does do more good than bad. We're not going to agree on that, but I believe it. The amount of good they do outweighs the crappy nature of the religion.

And I'm so not getting into the Israel thing. That's a whole other argument.

Fred Phelps: http://www.godhatesfags.com/ Good?

That's like a guy and his family. I wouldn't call that "church" representative.

Christian resistance to education (ID lawsuits), science (religion teaches us that is is noble (Religion “teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding” – Richard Dawkins) and to health care (stem cell research). Are these good things?

Agree with you on all of that. I just don't think all that outweighs the people that are fed and clothed and vaccinated due to Christians and all the other good they do.

Actually, I'm just going to bottom line my stance, because between this and the other thread I'm arguing with you in, I'm getting exhausted. Plus, I'd rather stick with that one since I know I'm right

My stance is this: I don't like Christianity. I'm not a Christian. I haven't been for many years now. I could go on for hours about what's wrong with Christianity.

But... You go way overboard, dude. You seem to have a real hard-on against Christianity, and I don't get it. Christians are mostly good people. Christians (in my opinion) do more than enough good to outweigh whatever bad they do.

So, even though I'm anti-Christianity (for lack of a better term), I feel like I'd be being majorly intellectually dishonest if I didn't disagree with you.

So say something non-over-the-top about Christianity so I can agree with you, dammit. I'm tired of defending a religion I don't even like.

Posted by White Rabbit Actually, I'm going to give you that one. I don't actually know that I'm wrong, but I guess I could be. Because I wasn't actually basing that statement on any figures that I can vividly recall, which should've been a red flag to not assume I'm right. I was basing it on the fact that I can't name a single secular charity, other than Red Cross. I can probably tick off like a dozen Christian charities without thinking about it. Looking back, it doesn't mean that those charities contribute more, I just figured it was a safe assumption due to there seeming to be many more Christian charities than secular ones. If I'm wrong on that one, so be it. I'll believe you.

Just so we are clear, here is two minutes on google:

Fred Follows Foundation
SHARE
Second Harvest
Toys for Tots
Habitat for Humanity
The Nature Conservancy
Planned Parenthood
UNICEF
The American Cancer Society
Project Gutenberg
World Wildlife Fund
Rethink
Heifer Project International
Mamas kitchen
Medecins Sans Frontiers

here is another partial list:

http://www.activistcash.com/

Posted by White Rabbit But, I don't think it negates my overall point that Christian charities do a MASSIVE amount of good.

I won't dispute that they do good, but dishonesty is bad no matter how you look at it. just because delusional people do some good things does not mean that thier delusions are in any way valid or true. I suggest to you two things:

1) There is a massive amount of harm done by religious charities, such as in AIDS riddled africa, that, in many peoples opinion, does more harm than good.

2) There is no need to believe in an imaginary god to do good. ALL good that they might accomplish could be done by secular humanist organizations.

Consider that lying to a man dying of cancer, and telling him he is cured, will doubtless make him happier - until your deception is discovered.

Posted by tekriter 1) There is a massive amount of harm done by religious charities, such as in AIDS riddled africa, that, in many peoples opinion, does more harm than good.

No disagreement. The Catholic church's stance on contraception is a horrible addition to that. But the preaching of abstinence probably doesn't make the situation worse, it just doesn't help.

2) There is no need to believe in an imaginary god to do good. ALL good that they might accomplish could be done by secular humanist organizations.

Oh, no doubt. But have you ever heard of a specifically atheist or agnostic charity? I haven't. There probably is one, but it'd be news to me.

http://www.the-bri...rist_charities.htm

http://www.secular...on=main&page=SHARE

Take a few minutes and look. Ever hear of the Red Cross?