How do you think Canada will approach this matter when your growing Muslim minority begins clamoring for legal autonomy?
I hope the US still has the common sense to tell them where to put their Sharia when they come asking.

Sharia law is spreading as authority wanes
By Joshua Rozenberg, Legal Editor // Last Updated: 2:03am GMT 29/11/2006
Islamic sharia law is gaining an increasing foothold in parts of Britain, a report claims.
Sharia, derived from several sources including the Koran, is applied to varying degrees in predominantly Muslim countries but it has no binding status in Britain.
The Koran is one of the sources that Sharia derives from
However, the BBC Radio 4 programme Law in Action produced evidence yesterday that it was being used by some Muslims as an alternative to English criminal law. Aydarus Yusuf, 29, a youth worker from Somalia, recalled a stabbing case that was decided by an unofficial Somali "court" sitting in Woolwich, south-east London.
Mr Yusuf said a group of Somali youths were arrested on suspicion of stabbing another Somali teenager. The victim's family told the police it would be settled out of court and the suspects were released on bail.
A hearing was convened and elders ordered the assailants to compensate their victim. "All their uncles and their fathers were there," said Mr Yusuf. "So they all put something towards that and apologised for the wrongdoing."
Although Scotland Yard had no information about that case yesterday, a spokesman said it was common for the police not to proceed with assault cases if the victims decided not to press charges.
However, the spokesman said cases of domestic violence, including rape, might go to trial regardless of the victim's wishes.
Mr Yusuf told the programme he felt more bound by the traditional law of his birth than by the laws of his adopted country. "Us Somalis, wherever we are in the world, we have our own law," he said. "It's not sharia, it's not religious — it's just a cultural thing."
Sharia's great strength was the effectiveness of its penalties, he said. Those who appeared before religious courts would avoid re-offending so as not to bring shame on their families.
Some lawyers welcomed the advance of what has become known as "legal pluralism".
Dr Prakash Shah, a senior lecturer in law at Queen Mary University of London, said such tribunals "could be more effective than the formal legal system".
In his book Islam in Britain, Patrick Sookhdeo, director of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity, says there is an "alternative parallel unofficial legal system" that operates in the Muslim community on a voluntary basis.
"Sharia courts now operate in most larger cities, with different sectarian and ethnic groups operating their own courts that cater to their specific needs according to their traditions," he says. These are based on sharia councils, set up in Britain to help Muslims solve family and personal problems.
Sharia councils may grant divorces under religious law to a woman whose husband refuses to complete a civil divorce by declaring his marriage over. There is evidence that these councils are evolving into courts of arbitration.
Faizul Aqtab Siddiqi, a barrister and principal of Hijaz College Islamic University, near Nuneaton, Warwicks, said this type of court had advantages for Muslims. "It operates on a low budget, it operates on very small timescales and the process and the laws of evidence are far more lenient and it's less awesome an environment than the English courts," he said.
Mr Siddiqi predicted that there would be a formal network of Muslim courts within a decade.
"I was speaking to a police officer who said we no longer have the bobby on the beat who will give somebody a slap on the wrist.
"So I think there is a case to be made under which the elders sit together and reprimand people, trying to get them to change."

The respect that christians demand for their ideas, by corollary, means that islamic views should be accorded the same respect.

How do we limit Islamic law without limiting christian laws?

And while we are at it, which view of the world is the right one?

In Canada, the supreme court has already ruled against the legality of religious tribunals, specifically, sharia.

Secular government is the only sensible and fair practice.
Sorry about your 10 commandments and prayer in school fellas.
Unless you want your children bowing to the east as well, ya' gotta swear off ALL religion in the public arena.

I agree.

To include religion in government would be to advocate one school of irrational thought over another. That completely ignores the pluralistic nature of religious belief in every western nation. To advocate one over another would only inflame the already divisive nature of religions (we are x-tians and we believe in x, and you are a y-ist and believe in y, so you are wrong which means you are going to hell, are less than human, or that your vote should not count).

Of course it is unfair to just point to sharia. Christians have their own version. The christian fundamentalists in the increasingly theocratic United States advocate government, education and a legal system based on the bible. There are some easy comparisons with sharia that can be made without much imagination. To describe these fundamentalists as the american taliban is not too far off. Even Pat Robertson believes that the bible supports his view that women are inferior to men. He wants to be president. Burkhas anyone?

Posted by tekriter To describe these fundamentalists as the american taliban is not too far off.

Dude, come on. Yes it is far off. Way off.

Personally, I don't want to live under either theocracy, but I'd take Christian theocracy over sharia law any day of the week.

Just some of the things they do under sharia law right now in Islamic countries are inhuman.

I mean, I'm sorry, I know you're going to lose a LOT of freedom under a Christian theocracy, but you're not going to see homosexuals hung or women stoned to death for adultery. This, however, happens not infrequently in countries where sharia is the law of the land.

I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good. If a Christian voted for Clinton, he sinned against God. It's that simple, our goal is a Christian nation. We have the biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism...

-Randall Terry, Director of Operation Rescue


The natural and proper timidity and delicacy which belongs to the female sex evidently unfits it for many of the occupations of civil life....The paramount destiny and mission of women are to fulfill the noble and benign office of wife and mother. This is the law of the Creator.

-US Supreme Court, 1873

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord..

-Hitler (Mein Kampf, Chapter 2)

We, the Order of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, reverentially acknowledge the majesty and supremacy of Almighty God and recognise His goodness and providence through Jesus Christ our Lord.

-Ku Klux Klan creed (from the Constitution and Laws of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan )

I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!

-Rev. Jerry Falwell (1979)

I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

-President George H. W. Bush (the First), during an August 27, 1987 interview by Rob Sherman

Government was instituted by God to bring His laws to people and to carry out His will and purposes.

-Pat Robertson

There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world. How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy moneychangers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?

-Pat Robertson

The strategy against the American radical left should be the same as General Douglas MacArthur employed against the Japanese in the Pacific . . . blast the individuals out of their power bunkers with hand-to-hand combat. The battle to regain the soul of America won't be pleasant, but we will win it."

-Pat Robertson

I imagine every Christian would agree that we need to remove humanism from the public schools. There is only one way to accomplish this: Abolish the public schools.

-The Reverend Robert L. Thoburn

My children, Michael and Alex, are with our Heavenly Father now, and I know that they will never be hurt again. As a mom, that means more than words could ever say. . . My children deserve to have the best, and now they will. . . I have put my total faith in God, and he will take care of me.

-Susan Smith, who drowned her two children, in her confession letter, Nov. 1994

We should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. If I were an unborn fetus I would want others to use force to protect me, therefore using force against abortionists is justifiable homicide.

-Paul Hill, killer of abortionist doctor

Both the Magisterium of the Church. . . . and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action. The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.

-Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994

Screw the Buddhists and kill the Muslims.

-Henry Jordan, South Carolina board of education (when another board member said the displaying of the Ten Commandemtns in public schools might offend students of other religions)

I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

-Jerry Falwell (13 Sep. 2001 on the Christian Broadcasting Network explaining who helped in the World Trade Center & Pentagon tragedy.)

"When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil."
--Gary Potter, president of Catholics for Christian Political Action

"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."
--Jerry Falwell

"We are engaged in a social, political, and cultural war. There's a lot of talk in America about pluralism. But the bottom line is somebody's values will prevail. And the winner gets the right to teach our children what to believe."
-- Gary Bauer, Family Research Council

"So let us be blunt about it: We must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will be get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God."
--Gary North

"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharaoh's charioteers."
--Jerry Falwell

"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed." --Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue

Nobody's saying there aren't a WHOLE lot of shitty Christians past and present.

But there are currently significantly more Christians in the world than Muslims, yet you see MUCH MUCH MUCH more extremist violence coming from Muslim extremists. Plus, you have countries where sharia is law and you see unspeakable horrors committed there with the full force of the law behind them.

So, I think it's more than a safe assumption that you're safer living in a Christian theocracy than under sharia.

You're going to lose all kinds of rights, but if modern Christians in the US suddenly got total control of the country, you would NOT see homosexuals hanged or women stoned for adultery. You just wouldn't.

Comparing a modern Christian theocracy to modern sharia is like night and day.

Posted by White Rabbit So, I think it's more than a safe assumption that you're safer living in a Christian theocracy than under sharia.

I'll grant you that.

Consider, however, that christianity has undergone a reformation (that demonstrates the inexorable erosion of religion caused by the irresistable current of reason and discovery) that Islam has not. Many people argue that Islam is arriving at that crossroads now.

There are enough christians that believe that the crap contained in the bible should be literally interpreted as the one true word of god that we should be afraid. The United States is becoming a theocracy in all but name (how many atheists have been elected to national office? To many this is a prerequisite). I hope that this is a temporary aberration caused by a reaction to the turmoil in the islamic world.

You can't define the argument as being about whether christianity is better than islam. Followers of both each believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong. We would all be better off without either irrational set of beliefs to set us against one another.

It all boils down to this: Either there is a god, or there is not. Which side of the argument do you stand?

Posted by tekriter I'll grant you that. Consider, however, that christianity has undergone a reformation (that demonstrates the inexorable erosion of religion caused by the irresistable current of reason and discovery) that Islam has not. Many people argue that Islam is arriving at that crossroads now.

Maaaaaaaybe. Islam seems to have gotten even more violent in the last few decades, though. I mean, suicide bombings and televized beheadings certainly weren't the norm a few decades ago.

There are enough christians that believe that the crap contained in the bible should be literally interpreted as the one true word of god that we should be afraid.

Oh, I'm not denying that. I'd be afraid of a Christian theocracy. Very afraid.

The United States is becoming a theocracy in all but name (how many atheists have been elected to national office?

Now, that I don't agree with. I think the United States is becoming more secular every year. Just because being a Christian is still the status quo doesn't mean things aren't heading away from that.

For example, we just elected a Muslim to Congress. That's gotta mean something, eh?

You can't define the argument as being about whether christianity is better than islam.

I don't think one is better than the other. I do, however, think one is a bigger threat to the world right now.

It all boils down to this: Either there is a god, or there is not. Which side of the argument do you stand?

I don't know. That's why I'm agnostic. I do believe this, though:

If there's a God, he thinks religion is just as fucking stupid as I do.

Posted by tekriter We would all be better off without either irrational set of beliefs to set us against one another.

(wanted to think about my answer to this one)

Sometimes I agree with that, and sometimes I don't.

Sometimes I think we'd all be better off if everyone was secular or atheist or whatever.

Then, sometimes, I think people really are just dumb animals who will do whatever crazy things they feel like if they don't have a man in the sky to be afraid of.

Sometimes I think people would live life more to the fullest if they believed that this was the only existence they got.

Then, other times, I think humanity is stupid enough that they'd just fall apart completely if they realized their pathetic lives were the only existence they were ever going to get.

I don't know.

Yeah, all damning statements. . . . XTian crazies don't carry out rampant suicide bombings and brutal killings by the thousands each year.
Apples and oranges.
How about some wonderful advice from a prominent muslim cleric?
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual act such as forplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not comitted a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."
(Teachings of Ayatollah Khomeini, Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution)

A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.

-Ayatollah Khomeini, Tahrirolvasyleh, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990


I think this one is a little better.

I spent last year in Afghanistan and have travelled through several mulsim countries and have read the Koran cover to cover. I'm no fan of islam, and I agree that it is the single biggest threat on the planet right now.

I do want to point out that the problem is religion - all fundamentalist religion is unreasonable and dangerous. Historically christians were no better than thier islamic counterparts today.

The current face of islam is not a perversion of religion - it is a pure form of literalist interpretation - just like the crusades and the inquisition.

Posted by tekriter The current face of islam is not a perversion of religion - it is a pure form of literalist interpretation - just like the crusades and the inquisition.

That is fucking REFRESHING to hear someone (who's not a conservative) admit that.

"Anyone familiar with my work knows that I am extremely critical of all religious faiths. I have argued elsewhere that the ascendancy of Christian conservatism in American politics should terrify and embarrass us. I have argued that the religious dogmatism of the Jewish settlers could well be the cause of World War III. And yet, there are gradations to the evil that is done in name of God, and these gradations must be honestly observed. So let us now acknowledge the obvious: there is a direct link between the doctrine of Islam and Muslim violence. Acknowledging this link remains especially taboo among political liberals. While liberals are leery of religious fundamentalism in general, they consistently imagine that all religions at their core teach the same thing and teach it equally well. This is one of the many delusions borne of political correctness. Rather than continue to squander precious time, energy, and good will by denying the role that Islam now plays in perpetuating Muslim violence, we should urge Muslim communities, East and West, to reform the ideology of their religion. This will not be easy, as the Koran and hadith offer precious little basis for a Muslim Enlightenment, but it is necessary. The truth that we must finally confront is that Islam contains specific notions of martyrdom and jihad that fully explain the character of Muslim violence. Unless the world’s Muslims can find some way of expunging the metaphysics that is fast turning their religion into a cult of death, we will ultimately face the same perversely destructive behavior throughout much of the world. It should be clear that I am not speaking about a race or an ethnicity here; I am speaking about the logical consequences of specific ideas."

Sam Harris

I think Sam says it best - The logical consequences of specific ideas.

Posted by tekriter The current face of islam is not a perversion of religion - it is a pure form of literalist interpretation - just like the crusades and the inquisition.

I never thought the day would come when I would actually agree with you on something.

Posted by DevilC How do you think Canada will approach this matter when your growing Muslim minority begins clamoring for legal autonomy?

The Province of Ontario outlawed all courts (Jewish, Sharia etc) for civil and family matters. Only one rule of law applies to all, our current civil and family courts and the Criminal Code of Canada.