Continued from Other -> Democracy NOW

Posted by Wabbit But, really, doesn't this imply that I lose, for not believing that a medieval torture device is holy? What this shirt is obviously saying is that the human race wins, not, you all lose.

But, I am very definitely not a part of any group that would hold up a cross as special, so I am excluded from a "we" here.

Posted by Wabbit And doesn't this insult the intelligence of every living being? Just the one's who believe in evolution. I don't see how this is offensive though. If you get offended my someone with differing beliefs, that says something about your character.

So, "Just say no to Jesus" and "Just say no to god" aren't offensive to you? Good, I agree they shouldn't be, by themselves. But the fact that this shirt also indicates a movement to remove reason and logic from education is offensive. Maybe that's just my opinion, but it happens to be the only correct one.

Posted by Wabbit And doesn't this offend YOU, seeing as it is on the Christian Shirts site? sure it's offensive, but we're not talking about Christian shirt sites, we're talking about Christian shirts. If I saw someone wearing this I would not see it as a Christian shirt. Just because it's a pro-life shirt, does not mean it's a Christian shirt.

Totally agree. But there is a whole lot of stuff that Christians put forth as "Christian" these days which is decidedly UN-Christian.

Posted by Wabbit Do you not see the Islamic symbol here? You think this isn't saying something directly against anyone who believes in Islam? .... honestly the shirt confuses me, and I can't seem to discern the message is here. Seems like they just threw a bunch of crap onto a shirt, and left it up to the rest of us to make sense of it.

Yeah, no shit. That is some crazy fucking nonsense.





But here is why I really had to reply....

Posted by Wabbit If liberals keep it up at this pace, we will destroy capitalism. Big Macs will be offensive to vegetarians, and no-longer advertised. Books will be offensive to the illiterate. Shoes offensive to amputees. Shampoo to the bald. Pregnancy tests offensive to gays. Houses to the homeless. Music to the deaf. etc... etc... Until we wont be allowed to show images of anything in public. Advertising will be ground to a halt, and despite what they told you in grade-school love does not make the world go round. Advertising does. Without advertising we would have no television, no radio, no internet, no media. (newspapers are offensive to the tree-huggers)

It's funny, because from my point of view, it is usually religious conservatives that are causing these problems.

• Harry Potter books? BAN THEM!
  
• Evolution? DON'T TEACH IT!
  
• Gay? I'LL KICK YER ASS!
  

Posted by Wabbit So next time you get offended by something stupid like a Jesus loves you shirt, think about it, are you really offended, or just expressing your right to be offended.

I'm generally don't express anything if I'm offended, because that would be rude as well. If someone is brutish enough to wear a slogan that is offensive to me, that's obviously their right. I never said otherwise.

Besides, I need the right to wear my "Fuck you Christians in the ass" shirt.

Posted by MutantMandias Totally agree. But there is a whole lot of stuff that Christians put forth as "Christian" these days which is decidedly UN-Christian. Harry Potter books? BAN THEM! Evolution? DON'T TEACH IT! Gay? I'LL KICK YER ASS!

The pope said "Love your gay children."
I went to a Catholic school and was taught for 17 years through grade school, high school, and college that evolution was reality. All a Christian need believe is that God set the wheels in motion. I do not understand why both sides are so vehemently against the Deist notion of God (or god) as a clock-maker.
There are plenty who call themselves Christian and do not understand what any of it means. We're a nation of hypocrites.

Posted by DevilC All a Christian need believe is that God set the wheels in motion. I do not understand why both sides are so vehemently against the Deist notion of God (or god) as a clock-maker.

I agree 100%. To me, the notion of a Creator that designed a system that uses evolution is much more majestic, beautiful, and sublime than a God in a dirty set of overalls, tweaking every little thing as it goes.

But the reason that it is made into a big stink is that it is easy for it to be turned into a simplistic battleground, which is then used as a tool to subjugate non Christians. Just like the imaginary War Against Christmas. Trying to create a battleground over a non event, so that they can demand additional "rights."

Posted by MutantMandias I agree 100%. To me, the notion of a Creator that designed a system that uses evolution is much more majestic, beautiful, and sublime than a God in a dirty set of overalls, tweaking every little thing as it goes."

Yup, I agree. There's no reason a person can't be a Christian and an evolutionist.

Unfortunately, most Christians refuse to get past the "God created us in his image! If we came from monkeys, that means God is a monkey! God's not a monkey!" argument, which is utterly ridiculous.

That said... As much as I hate to admit this, as a non-religious person... I'm starting to have issues with evolution. There are some things about it that I just can't seem to wrap my brain around and that I can't seem to get an adequate explanation for. I hate it, too, because I honestly believe there's a SCIENTIFIC explanation for how we came to exist. But some things about evolution just don't make sense to me. I don't disbelieve in it, but there's things I don't understand.

Well, that's just fine. There's a couple of things about the Theory of Gravity that I can't wrap my mind around either. It doesn't mean that we should teach children that the Earth has a Holy Vacuum Cleaner sucking us to the ground.

Posted by MutantMandias Well, that's just fine. There's a couple of things about the Theory of Gravity that I can't wrap my mind around either. It doesn't mean that we should teach children that the Earth has a Holy Vacuum Cleaner sucking us to the ground.

Yup, I agree totally. I believe in evolution, but I'm thinking we might not have all the details nailed down as much people like to let on, because there's a few things that either don't make sense or I'm just not smart enough to figure them out.

Posted by White Rabbit Yup, I agree. There's no reason a person can't be a Christian and an evolutionist. Unfortunately, most Christians refuse to get past the "God created us in his image! If we came from monkeys, that means God is a monkey! God's not a monkey!" argument, which is utterly ridiculous.

I agree with you 100% I was a science freak before I ever chose to be religious, and I don't see any reason that my fairly new belief should make me into a closed minded idiot.

Posted by DevilC I do not understand why both sides are so vehemently against the Deist notion of God (or god) as a clock-maker.

There is no good reason to believe that god or any other actor caused the universe. Just because we don't know does not mean we can make up a reason. It is human nature to assign agency to things with apparent design, and to speculate - but neither of those characteristics are evidence.
Read the Blind Watchmaker by Dawkins for a better understanding.
The argument from design is a fallacy.
According to Plato, here is the standard definition of the Christian God: he is omnipotent (absolutely powerful), omni-benevolent (absolutely good), and omniscient (knows everything).
1) The universe is flawed (death, cancer, The Moffats, Hitler, Ford's, etc…). If god designed it he fucked up.
2) If the universe was designed, it's purpose was evidently to produce black holes, because the universe produces black holes far more efficiently than it produces life supporting planets, or people in god's image. If god designed it he fucked up.
3) People are complex, but far from a good design. Our heads are too big to be born without injuring or killing our mothers, our genitals and other vulnerable areas are exposed when we walk upright, we still have remnants of tails, without technology we can't survive outside a narrow band around the equator and we spend more time killing each other than anything else. If god designed it he fucked up.

The other component of the argument from design is that people just can't believe that we evolved by chance.
This is the argument from INCREDULITY and it is a fallacy.
1) It can't be true because I can't wrap my tiny brain around it. People could not believe the earth was round until we showed them the shadow on the moon or a picture of earth from space.
2) Chance has very little to do with evolution.

3) Just because you have no imagination or capacity to understand these scientific concepts does not negate the overwhelming evidence of the biological fact of evolution.
Science cannot explain everything, but every minute we learn more about our universe.
Science can explain the mechanism of evolution will, in all likelihood, be able to explain the process of the creation of the universe.
Science cannot explain "why", but there is no reason to assume that there is a purpose behind the creation of the universe - other than your pitiful human insecurities and a yearning for a higher meaning that perhaps includes surviving your own death.

On the other hand, if you are a good christian, the bible is the one true word of god, and your notion is blatantly heretical (and you should be stoned).

that's why.

Sounds like a whole lot of people 'sitting on the fence'

Take a side, grow a spine (or have your god design one for you) and stand-up for what you believe.

You can not believe in an almighty god and believe in evolution, they contradict each other... unless you feel god is a monkey.

What were monkeys before they became monkeys? Wouldn't god look like that?

Posted by Nvr2loud You can not believe in an almighty god and believe in evolution

Yes you can.

Posted by White Rabbit Yes you can.

I guess you can believe in whatever you want, what I mean is that the idea of evolution and intelligent design contradict each other. You can not believe in evolution and remain honest with your belief in an almighty god.

Posted by White Rabbit Yes you can.

Sure you can. But you would be a fool, in that your arguments are neither theologically, scientifically, or philosophically sound.

...and you should not be allowed to teach those beliefs in a publicly funded forum.

I can believe (just as you can believe whatever you choose) that the cure for cancer is in your brain cells. I can further believe that the only way to harvest those cells is with a rusty spoon. It follows logically that I should get a rusty spoon and track you down, don't you agree?

Posted by Nvr2loud I guess you can believe in whatever you want, what I mean is that the idea of evolution and intelligent design contradict each other. You can not believe in evolution and remain honest with your belief in an almighty god.

They don't contradict each other unless you force them to, and you can believe in both and remain honest in your belief in God.

The Bible doesn't specify the method with which God created man. It says we were created from the dirt, essentially. If you were a millennia-ago Bible writer, that's more or less how you would describe evolving out of the primordial sludge, I would think.

Besides which, evolution doesn't contradict the idea that God had a hand in it. Evolution tells you the process, but it doesn't answer the "why" of why we evolved or why we're here. Why life begins in places like earth, in the universe, why it evolves the way it does.

People used to say you couldn't believe the Earth revolved around the sun and be a Christian. They said that idea challenged the notion that Earth is the center of creation. They were wrong about that.

And they're wrong about evolution, too. You can believe in both.

Posted by tekriter Sure you can. But you would be a fool, in that your arguments are neither theologically, scientifically, or philosophically sound.

No, you wouldn't be a fool. I believe that's your anti-Christian bias rearing its head again.

There is absolutely no reason you can't believe in God, in a creator that's responsible for all of this, and believe that evolution is the process through which we came about.

Like I said above, evolution, and science, cannot answer the "why" in why we're here--and it never will. You can find your own answer for that, of course. It doesn't have to be anything supernatural.

But there's no reason, absolutely none, that you can't believe God is the answer to the "why."

Posted by White Rabbit But there's no reason, absolutely none, that you can't believe God is the answer to the "why."

Other than there is absolutely no reason to believe that any god had anything to do with it.

You cannot possibly know what science will or will not determine.

You have no personal knowledge of a god or any other agent acting in the creation of this universe.

You are speculating. That is all.

I've got my spoon. Please send your coordinates.

Posted by Nvr2loud You can not believe in evolution and remain honest with your belief in an almighty god.

I don't believe in evolution, but I know Christians who do. And they don't think that it all started from nothing; they believe that God started the evolutionary process, thus making the process of morphing from one thing to another to be God's process.

Like I said, *I* don't believe that. But the two beliefs certainly don't have to nullify each other.

Posted by tekriter Other than there is absolutely no reason to believe that any god had anything to do with it.

Right. But the reality of evolution doesn't create any more or less reason to believe in God. Really, it should have no more bearing on it than finding another moon around Saturn or discovering a new species in Fiji.

You cannot possibly know what science will or will not determine.

You can on this, because it's not a question science can answer.

"Why are we here?" is a philosophical question. It's not something you can run a test on.

You have no personal knowledge of a god or any other agent acting in the creation of this universe. You are speculating. That is all.

I'm agnostic/borderline-atheist, remember? So I'm not speculating about anything.

But there isn't any reason you can't believe in evolution and God, unless you're just trying to create a contradiction.

Posted by katwoman I don't believe in evolution, but I know Christians who do. And they don't think that it all started from nothing; they believe that God started the evolutionary process, thus making the process of morphing from one thing to another to be God's process.

Can christians just choose what parts of the bible to ignore and what parts are the one true word of god?

Calvin and Luther might be a little more advanced, theologically, than you or I, and here's what they have to say:

"At the Reformation the vast authority of Luther was thrown in favour of the literal acceptance of Scripture as the main source of natural science. The allegorical and mystical interpretations of earlier theologians he utterly rejected. "Why," he asks, "should Moses use allegory when he is not speaking of allegorical creatures or of an allegorical world, but of real creatures and of a visible world, which can be seen, felt, and grasped? Moses calls things by their right names, as we ought to do....I hold that the animals took their being at once upon the word of God, as did also the fishes in the sea."

Not less explicit in his adherence to the literal account of creation given in Genesis was Calvin. He warns those who, by taking another view than his own, "basely insult the Creator, to expect a judge who will annihilate them." He insists that all species of animals were created in six days, each made up of an evening and a morning, and that no new species has ever appeared since. He dwells on the production of birds from the water as resting upon certain warrant of Scripture, but adds, "If the question is to be argued on physical grounds, we know that water is more akin to air than the earth is." As to difficulties in the scriptural account of creation, he tells us that God "wished by these to give proofs of his power which should fill us with astonishment."

A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology by A. D. White "

Posted by katwoman Like I said, *I* don't believe that. But the two beliefs certainly don't have to nullify each other.

You believe what, exactly? Can I ask how you account for dinosaurs? Do you call them Jesus Horses, or believe that paleontologist are sneaking around planting evidence? Oh, you ought to reconcile your beliefs with the entire filed of biology, which unequivocably supports evolution.

Either the bible is correct, or it is not.

If you try to compromise science and religion, you get nothing. They exclusive.

The question is not ""can science answer the why?", but rather "why does there have to be a why?"

There is no good reason to believe that the universe was created for a reason.

There is no evidence, a priori knowledge, of any agency at all.

You want to believe, therefore you do, at the expense of being forced to ignore all the evidence to the contrary.

It is difficult to help someone understand when their salvation and avoidance of hell is based on them not understanding.

Posted by White Rabbit I'm agnostic/borderline-atheist, remember?

You are the undercover christian apologist.

The other alternative is reason, which often escapes your arguments.