What I'd like to address with this thread is the idea that Religion alone defines all of man's virtues and keeps him on the path to salvation, or simply keeps him "good" or "pure". Many times In religious discussions People have claimed that without religion the world would be lawless. It is this self righteous view that has often gotten me somewhat worked while discussing religion. To believe this is to suspend belief in our own judgment, to say that without the guidance of a book we would live in chaos. If nothing else, I see the bible, and many other religious texts as somewhat of an account of the evolution of society.

We as a people are aware of what we do NOT want done to us. The ten commandments are really a list of things that we don't want people to do to us. Common sense is all you need to know that people don't want to die, be stolen from, cheated on etc etc. Self hypocrisy is what keeps us from killing and doing so many other dastardly deeds. Society had to change over time in order to progress. We had to stop killing each other and work things out to progress as a people. We had to come together to overcome corrupt leaders. The bible in particular seems to recognize this as it happens.

God is cruel and vengeful in the beginning, much like the kings and rulers of old. Eventually they went too far and the people had to do something. You can't oppress a people with a standing army consisting of their families. You can't always rule with fear. Things started to change and rulers started to take more consideration in how they treated their people. not a great deal more, but enough. God too changed to be more compassionate and the story was given an antagonist. Just like a ruler today has to give his people something else to fear and hate to take their minds off of his misdoing. A perfect being would never change in these ways anyways. So I see it more as the evolution of society. One thing has stayed very much the same and that is the constant deception.

You be the judge of who's lying to you and what about. I won't address that issue directly in this post.

I don't know, man. I'm not religious, but I'm skeptical that the world would be better off if all religion vanished.

If people stopped believing that each person around them had a human soul, then they might start looking at human beings from a benefit/cost ratio. They might start doing some really heinous things "for the greater good," rather than trying to prevent any loss of life at all.

Just a theory. I'm not really sold either way. Sometimes I think we'd better off without religion. Sometimes I think the world would descend into huge atrocities without it.

Well, Look at all the things done under the giess of religion. Many genocides were commited with religious justifications. Also, the separatism that religion causes is a problem.

Most rules that come from religion were simply evolutionary methods of keeping people alive and functioning in a society. And then, as things developed, rules were specifically designed to keep people subjugated and controlled.

Yes, a fine example of taking credit for someone elses work...Our own.

Posted by Lord Awesome Well, Look at all the things done under the giess of religion. Many genocides were commited with religious justifications. Also, the separatism that religion causes is a problem.

Yeah, but... A lot of governments that were specifically atheist have done some really batshit crazy things.

Posted by White Rabbit Yeah, but... A lot of governments that were specifically atheist have done some really batshit crazy things.

I'm not disputing your comment, I am just curious as to some proof of this. I'm not well educated in the history of governments in our world, I'm not aware of any government that was proclaimed or believed to be atheists. Again, not disputing, I just don't know of any and would like to know.

Tekriter, do you have any knowledge of White Rabbit's atheist governments? You seem to know a lot of religious history.

Posted by Nvr2loud I'm not aware of any government that was proclaimed or believed to be atheists.

Well that's not really what I meant anyway. Bad choice of words. I don't know if there actually any governments where the state religion was atheism.

I meant governments that outlawed all religion mainly. Communist governments, etc. I'm pretty sure religion was banned under Pol Pot, for example.

Posted by White Rabbit Well that's not really what I meant anyway. Bad choice of words. I don't know if there actually any governments where the state religion was atheism. I meant governments that outlawed all religion mainly. Communist governments, etc. I'm pretty sure religion was banned under Pol Pot, for example.

Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair colour...

Even governments that have a state religion - like Saud Arabia are Atheistic -depending on which god they believe does not exist. A lot of Christians and Muslims believe that Zuess was a mythical character, just like many people believe that the Abrahamic god is a myth.

Many communist governments have been officially atheist - a fact that is often bandied about by the religious right (wrong). There are many good papers written that show that communist dogma was akin to a religion itself. This get back to the idea that incompatible, unjustified ideas are what is killing us.

The third reich was often said to be atheistic, but WWII was very much a religious conflict (any body seen six million jews around here anywhere?), and Hitler believed that the correct religion for germany was a good mix of fascism and catholicism.

Posted by Lord Awesome ...to say that without the guidance of a book we would live in chaos.

To put this back on the original track, consider the case of the Montreal police strike:

http://archives.cb...y/conflict_war/twt

Montreal is a largely catholic city, in a province with laws based on Catholic common law, and it would be reasonable to assume that the majority were catholic, or at least believed in the christian god - yet as soon as the police went on strike, the place came apart. Note that God, or the clergy were not on strike, just the police.

So, if god was looking, why were the christian behaving badly?

Here is a question for the christians: If god left town, would you lie, cheat, steal or kill?

Bueller? Bueller?

Anybody?


So...if god was not looking and you do bad things, all that proves is that you are a bad person.

If you did not do bad things in god's absence then you are a good person and have no need of god for morality.

If religiosity had anything to do with morals, we would expect that the USA would be some sort of paradise (the US, with 53% of respondents indicating that they are Creationists leads the western world in religiosity).

In fact the opposite is true. The United States leads the developed world in homicide rates, abortion, teen pregnancy, STD transmission and infant mortality.

Again, if religious belief was tied to morality, then the "red" conservative states - with the highest level of religious adherence should be better places to live. But no...of the 25 most dangerous cities in the USA 76% are in red states. Three of those are in Texas (god bless texas). The 12 states with the highest burglary rates are red states. The 29 highest rates of theft are in red states. of the 22 states with the highest murder rate 17 are red states.

93% of the members of the national Academy of Science claim to be atheist, yet there is no evidence that thier ranks are filled with murderers or other criminals.

Similarly the United Nations Development Agency Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Denmark, Switzerland, Sweden, Belgium, Japan and the UK are the least religious societies on earth and are also ranked highest by health, life expectancy, literacy, income, education, gender equality, lowest homicide rate and infant mortality.

So, what exactly, do we need religion for?

Bueller? Bueller?

It teaches us forgiveness and gives us absolution....So we can commit crimes...and feel okay about it in the end. That's being rather blunt and condescending of course, but it really tends to be the truth. Religion does not keep anyone in check Desire is what drives man. and one will only do what he/she desires. Integrity is what keeps us from doing the things we believe to be wrong, even if we'll supposedly get away with it all in the end.