I'd prefer the experiment to be done on a living person.. and it doesn't have to be a "loved one" as you stated.
It's not fair that scientists just use these animals who have no choice or say..

Posted by vicexsquad I'd prefer the experiment to be done on a living person.. and it doesn't have to be a "loved one" as you stated. It's not fair that scientists just use these animals who have no choice or say..

Lab animals not wild...
Your knee, or dog's to learn ALC replacement?
Your heart or a pig's heart to learn how to do open heart surgery?
Your liver and kidneys to test drugs that perform well in vitro.
You would soon be crippled or dead.

Where would you draw the line? Bacteria are alive, as are insects. I'm rather fond of bumble bees...
The realities of the real world and your imagine ideals are incongruent.

Sorry but I've walked both sides of this fence.
Meh, live and let die.

Posted by Boyington's bastard Well I guess they could use humans; someone or something, but many times a living (animal) is needed. Would you prefer to see die love ones die because a vaccine wasn't developed or tested properly? These isn't a clear cut issue, and seeing that I ate beef for diner, I'm not going to be a hypocrite. Many would be dead or crippled right now if not for the deaths countless test animals as would many others. I would prefer higher lifeforms not be used. Or that endanger wild species be hunted like the whale. At least the test animals aren't wild, or in danger of extinction. Life is full of tough choices sorry to say. Welcome to the _ planet... We are the worst species here; be glad it's not humans they're freezing... this time. Not to be rude but organizations like PETA have killed thousands of test animals(they needed to be destroyed as they were infected or not usable as pets, dah) and destroyed research data that would have saved lives from terrible diseases. PETA is a parasitic organization as it serves humans no useful purpose, and has caused a huge amount of harm. Lab animals and food stock were raised to be slaughtered. It's that simple. Maybe grizzly bears should start an organization to stop the use of the wild salmon. Countless bears would died, but the salmon would live a little longer. Peta's next project no doubt as then expand their insanity.

You didn't read my post carefully enough. I was talking specifically about one thing: the freezing experiment done on the baby ferrets.

I worked in a lab. Don't give me the old "would you rather". I support animal testing. What I don't support is scientifically unsound and unneeded experiments that are not approved by a committee for pain, worthiness, and scientific value.

If you respond to what I say above, and give me a good reason why the ferrets and other animals die for unneccessary and often unapproved research, I will listen.

Your points are valid for people who don't support animal research at all. However, there is a line. The ferret brain experiment did not produce and was not expected to produce any sort of scientific knowledge that would ever help us in our understanding of the human brain, an infants brain, or help with pregnant women. Having read the documents back in the day, it was quite clear that the researchers simply had money, and wanted to do something on a personal level for their own purposes. Often researchers will waste animal lives and money on "experiments" that are under the table, or just time killers to prove the department is working on something. Things like this do go on and this was one poorly run experiment that was horrifying and leaked out to the community.

Freezing a brain has been done before in cats, dogs, other mammals, and ferrets. There was no need to reproduce this data because nothing else was done except freeze the babies. If there had been some sort of chemical or product involved before the freezing, sure.

But no. And that is why animal experimentation is supposed to be regulated. If your experiment in California, let's say, involves freezing animals to death, a committee will ask you and find out for themselves whether you will actually NEED to do this, ask you to prove WHY you need to do this (since there is already reliable data to use), why you cannot use cadaver (a freshly euthanized animal). Only after you prove that you need to do the experiment to learn something new and it outweighs the cost of the animals death, will the committee approve the pain/death/suffering.

This did not go on for March of Dimes research.

(Also lab animals are not raised to be slaughtered; they are raised to be experimented on and as such in GOOD facilities are treated with dignity)

I support animal research, as I already said. Research with no alternative and research approved by committees with community members, lab staff, and animal rights staff such as Stanf*rd and the Veterans hospitals.

Just a quick note: not everyone is cookie cutter. Nothing is black and white; someone who supports animal rights is not automatically affiliated with PETA, and not every animal lab supporter is an animal hater. PETA is a cultish organization who believes that animals are not meant to be pets, but they need money so they don't advertise that fact to the public as much as they should. PETA also has been found guilty of running animal "shelters" in which animals are killed after being picked up from owners or picked up from animal shelters. Euthanized animals were given no chances for adoption. Ingrid, the leader of PETA, believes that animals suffer when waiting to be adopted out and that putting them to sleep is better than having them wait for a new home.

Only when everyone stops thinking in black and white and educates themselves will this world become a better place. I am talking about the public in general. Many of us are, but too few to make a large scale difference.

L

Are you saying the ferrets where killed for pleasure? Explain.

I will point out that freezing is considered a human way to euthanize small animals. It's a recommended way to stop a pet fish's suffering. I've never used it; I prefer to give the animal a chance.

Most lab animals are reuse for experimental or destroyed; it's unsound to release them as pets and few are. Many like the white rats make poor pets because of their inbreed tendencies to develop tumors. Few of mine ever came near their 3rd birthdays despite a good home.

Wild animals deserve more of this attention...

Back on topic...
If your going to donate, check out the charity.
Better yet, donate your time...

is it really humane to freeze something to death? I'm sure the Titanic drowners suffered greatly in that freezing North Atlantic water.

Posted by fedge is it really humane to freeze something to death? I'm sure the Titanic drowners suffered greatly in that freezing North Atlantic water.

The shock of being dunked in the water was described as "a thousand knives driven into their body". Combine the first stages of hypothermia (uncontrolled shivering etc) with the experience of being dunked in the icy water, that makes for a brutal experience. As the hypothermia deepens, the person gets sleepy, loses consciousness and dies. Either way, the thought is not pleasant.

As for is it really humane to freeze something to death? For me, not really as the initial stages can be painful. Especially if frostbite sets in.

And for animal testing. I can deal with that if the information received can save lives. However, for vanity crap (cosmetics or just "let's see how long it will take for a baby ferret to freeze to death"), that's just a waste.

Posted by Boyington's bastard Are you saying the ferrets where killed for pleasure? Explain. I will point out that freezing is considered a human way to euthanize small animals. It's a recommended way to stop a pet fish's suffering. I've never used it; I prefer to give the animal a chance. Most lab animals are reuse for experimental or destroyed; it's unsound to release them as pets and few are. Many like the white rats make poor pets because of their inbreed tendencies to develop tumors. Few of mine ever came near their 3rd birthdays despite a good home. Wild animals deserve more of this attention... Back on topic... If your going to donate, check out the charity. Better yet, donate your time...

Like I said - unscientific research is not beneficial to humans, or anyone. I don't know how else to get my point across.

Animal experiments are just like anything else - you can have good, and bad. And yes, lots of researchers at top universities get to do experiments that fulfill their desires, things they have wanted to do for a long time in their career (mostly psychological testing) and they get a grant, and they get to work. I would call that "for pleasure" when it supports a thesis that has NO application to humans whatsoever.

For example, the experiment where rats and mice were starved to see how long they would go until they ate a fellow mouse or rat. There is no direct correlation between the psychology of a rat and a mouse to a human. Sorry, there's not. In experiments like this, it's all about "animal psychology" and it's been done before.

My point was the March of Dimes has bad researchers and contract labs that perform useless experiments. They need better direct supervision and frankly, better scientists, to make good use out of their donations.

Freezing mammals is not a humane way to kill them. Euthanasia by a bolt to the head is the quickest method. IV is next; IP injections are painful; CO2 is torture for larger mammals (rats and ferrets, mice can be killed humanely with CO2 only if the chamber is deep enough and the CO2 is precharged, making the mice pass out within a second of being dropped into the CO2 - otherwise it is torture). Freezing is always painful, slow, both psychologically and physically torturing the animal for no reason. You are thinking of cold blooded animals, arthropods, fish, and insects. True, that is human for a fish. These are often frozen instead of being euthanized in some other manner.

Another point I did not make was that the physiology of the ferret brain is not comparable to a humans. In lab experiments, ferrets are not a popular choice for human related experiments (physically related structures) to humans. They are popular for one reason: their ability to carry the Avian Flu. They are highly susceptible and therefore are mainly used in flu, "cold", and Avian Flu tests.

Pigs and primates would have offered the March of Dimes quality information since they wanted to see the effect of freezing on a brain. Homologous structures are needed for that kind of IMPORTANT scientific information; not a mustelid brain that is in an entirely different section of Mammalia.

I don't know why you got into the topic of releasing lab animals as pets. But since you did - beagles and dogs are often rehomed. In the Bay Area, a big-name pharmaceutical went out of business and rehomed dozens of beagles within a day. Also, at my lab, a pig went home to a farm after its experiments. It is always up to the lab manager and the experiment being done.

Most of the time, a large amount of mice or rats are given a drug, the receive antibiotics, or whatever. Only a few out of large population will be killed for analysis. The rest will eventually be culled (euthanized) at the end of the experiment. Experiments can involve dozens to hundreds of mice.

Also there are different mouse and rat strains - you mentioned lab rats are more likely to get tumors. Nowadays, Google "buy lab mice" and you will find companies that have 27 different mice strains. You can get ones with human DNA, ones that don't live past 20 days old, ones that grow tumors, onces that have faulty hearts, ones that have bad livers, etc. Researchers can buy what they need for the experiment they are working on. I know workers who adopted mice who far outlived any pet store mice. Depending on the strain, you can have a mouse that lives twice the age of a "normal" mouse, or get a mouse that suddenly has a heart attack and dies five weeks from now. It is the same with rats.

I think we are on the same page, basically.

I agree, do your research. If you support the experiments, donate. I personally would like to see March of Dimes spend its money on more worthwhile studies than the "science" they have been doing since 2006.

L

Um, I don't do R&D.
I have 3 clown loaches as pets, the oldest is 14 years old.
My animals live long, happy lives...

Posted by Boyington's bastard Um, I don't do R&D. I have 3 clown loaches as pets, the oldest is 14 years old. My animals live long, happy lives...

So do mine....I don't "do" R&D either. I took care of animals and made sure they weren't being abused in any way.

L