I love how some people want to know why you need a gun and how often you may use it. I wish I was allowed to own one, and here's why. I HATE rattlesnakes. And I would carry one with me every time I went in the desert. It is a useful tool. It used to be a VERY useful tool 150 years ago. It is a tool for the police and the armed forces. Somewhere along the way people forgot that. And I think they should all guns illegal will stop crime dead in it's tracks, since no mugger, bankrobber, or rapist would want to break a law while committing a felony. After all we wouldn't want the crooks to get hurt by their victims, had they been able to carry. They won't have to think twice if that person is packing. We should make their jobs easier and get rid of courts while we're at it so they don't have to go through all that BS before they commit their next crime. We need to keep protecting our criminals, it's one of the only natural resources we have left in this country.

Junkyard's got me thinking. Maybe we really do need to protect ourselves from the criminals. Why don't we just round them all up and shoot the whole lot of them? Then we'd have a nice, clean world to live in, free of thieves, rapists and murderers. Oh wait, we'd still have plenty of murderers left.

I HATE rattlesnakes. And I would carry one with me every time I went in the desert. It is a useful tool.

Solution: Buy a BB gun.

I think anybody serving more then 10 years in prison should be eliminated. Imagine the money and space that could be saved!

If only there were a country we could ditch them in. Somewhere far away where they could be someone elses problem.... hmm. It'd have to be an island...

If only victims had rights too....

One thing I forgot to mention about where I live is that most people are encouraged to at least carry a rifle of substantial caliber into the woods with them. The Adirondack Mountains of New York state are some of the most unforgiving mountains in the country, not to mention the animals that are on the roam through them. Most commonly, it's the coydogs... they are vicious and will attack. Also, another reason for bringing weaponry along is that if you get lost, you can touch a couple of rounds off into the air to help the rangers find you. Yes, there are places in the Adirondacks where there are no trails and you will die.

Everyone has a gun here. Maybe that's why people don't fuck with other people that much? they know they'll get their ass shot off.

Some people have obviously never been out of the city. While in Nevada we did have a BB gun for shooting beer cans. We tried to get a rabbit for dinner and I shot him two times at like 30 and 50 ft. He ran away. Have you any idea how to hit a snake with a BB when they are about 2 inches in dia.? And do that while startled. You really need to aim. Now my gf's .22 with snake shot is much easier to hit them with. Her Grandma uses one too. Those sneaky little bastards can pop up anywhere. She once got one with a shovel that got into her shed and tried to get her. Then she put up some snake fence. They are a danger, they would rather leave you alone, but it doesn't always work that way. When I'm walking out there with my daughter, I would rather have a gun to kill a snake than lose my daughter. Most adults will make it to the hospital, a little girl would more than likely not survive the same bite and trip. It takes just under an hour to get to one from Grandma's house. The first 10 miles are on a gravel road. Now if you're in BFE it could easily be 4 hours or more. Sam's right there are still some frontier places left in the states.

What kind of snakes are we talking, here that are so predominant in your area that you use fence for them and so deadly you shoot them?

Well we are talking about the western diamondback rattlesnake. In central Arizona there can be as many as two dozen per square mile or more.






This is what it looks like if your bitten by one and survive.

I think there's at least 8 or 9 different kinds of rattlesnake in the area he's referring too. You're bound to bump into one or the other.

Luckily around here all we have to worry about is timber rattlers and copperheads. I've encountered them both in my hiking before, and they scared the crap outta me. I probably wouldn't have shot them though. I suppose they're not a nuisance species around these parts, as they're pretty seldom seen.

Here's a list of the poisonous snakes in North America: http://www.trailquest.net/SNpoi.html

Not as many as you'd think!

Posted by hydrotherapy What kind of snakes are we talking, here that are so predominant in your area that you use fence for them and so deadly you shoot them?

There aren't any. Sorry guys, two dozen per square mile isn't a lot.

I've noticed that authoritarian types tend to have an irrational fear of snakes, bees, dogs, and any other animal that they can't easily control. I've never had a rattlesnake mishap because I give them at least some respect. They can't eat you and therefore don't want to bite you. Give them space.

That said, I'm not against guns, just motherfuckers with Tac-Ops fantasies of home invasions. What heroes.

And for the record, I'm not a city boy.

I've been going out there over 10 years and never saw one. This trip I see 3. And if giving them respect was all it took, there would be no bites. I'm not afraid of them I just am not a big fan of getting bit. I'm afraid of needles, and that's how they fix you up. And while it is true that you don't see a snake every day, if you spend enough time there you will run across them. And the Mojave Green is 16X more poisonous than a sidewinder. And that's just snakes. There are way more desert nasties, and some are less willing than rattlers to just go on their way. They rarely start a fight, but will never back down from one either. Two of her Grandma's dogs have been bitten too many times for them to go outside the fence. One kills them for fun, likes lizards too. The dog is a good tool. It won't let you between it and a snake. They live between Yucca and Lake Haversu, in the middle of BFE. While walking through the scrub, it is easy to startle a snake you don't see and get bit. That's why they make snake gaiters. It's like a life jacket, or a seatbelt. But those are useless too if you don't PLAN on falling overboard or getting in an accident.
http://digital-des...n-rattlesnake.html

Posted by junkyard I've been going out there over 10 years and never saw one. This trip I see 3. And if giving them respect was all it took, there would be no bites. I'm not afraid of them I just am not a big fan of getting bit. I'm afraid of needles, and that's how they fix you up. And while it is true that you don't see a snake every day, if you spend enough time there you will run across them. And the Mojave Green is 16X more poisonous than a sidewinder. And that's just snakes. There are way more desert nasties, and some are less willing than rattlers to just go on their way. They rarely start a fight, but will never back down from one either. Two of her Grandma's dogs have been bitten too many times for them to go outside the fence. One kills them for fun, likes lizards too. The dog is a good tool. It won't let you between it and a snake. They live between Yucca and Lake Haversu, in the middle of BFE. While walking through the scrub, it is easy to startle a snake you don't see and get bit. That's why they make snake gaiters. It's like a life jacket, or a seatbelt. But those are useless too if you don't PLAN on falling overboard or getting in an accident. http://digital-des...n-rattlesnake.html

oh come on.

I will agree that if respect where all there is to it there would be no bites, but I really don't think many snake bites are prevented by guns. The ones where it becomes questionable are the "I reached onto a ledge that had a snake/ I stepped on one" type bites: the sneak attacks. Now, gun or no gun those will be hard to avoid.

Mountain lions: sure, carry a gun, they try to attack humans from time to time.

Bears: sure, they will attack.

But snakes? you gotta be kidding me. Next you're going to be on about how you need to burn yuccas so you won't get stabbed.

actually, i hate to be a killjoy here, but on Tongue Mountain near Lake George NY, anyone hunting or hiking on that mountain is encouraged to bring a firearm due to the rattlesnakes on the mountain. Yes, rattlesnakes in New York state.

wow.

Posted by Samurai actually, i hate to be a killjoy here, but on Tongue Mountain near Lake George NY, anyone hunting or hiking on that mountain is encouraged to bring a firearm due to the rattlesnakes on the mountain. Yes, rattlesnakes in New York state. wow.

Yes, there are rattlesnakes there.

Every few years, the state either resurface the road or clean culverts or something and often the construction workers bring handguns to work because we have timber rattlers there. Supposedly there's only 3000 to 6000 of them left, but other people have estimated there's something like 10 snakes to every one person in the area and at night, they will get into the cabs and engine compartments of heavy construction equipment because it's warm and we all know snakes are attracted to heat.

There's stories of them getting wrapped around flywheels of engines and around crankshafts and into exhausts and all kinds of places on heavy equipment. Construction workers are known to get uneasy there because of that fact and I can't say that I blame them.

Also these snakes are known to be vicious, vindictive and attack in groups, how true that is, I'm not sure, but there's horror stories that people insist are true that the snakes come out and will pick off people off by themselves. It's probably just some silly old story, but who knows?

What's worse, there's an idiot trying to save them by trying to get mountain bikes outlawed on the trails in the area. There used to be a bounty on the snakes because they were a nuisance. The state has since dropped it, but I highly doubt the state will declare the snakes illegal to kill since they are a nuisance. Also I'm told that they're afraid of people, which may be true to some extent, but not with a lot of the stories you'll hear from people here. I will say this, they say the population is declining, I say bullshit. If you go hiking there, they are everywhere.

Shael

I wonder why people buy mouse traps? If you let them in your house or garage they will usually end up chewing something you don't want them to, could even be expensive. It's not that they are scared of mice, or want to kill everything that moves, they just don't want them in the house. The ones in the wild, do not bother them at all. You don't get the ones in the house, they might fuck and make more, that's how it happens. Also the reason most cities have a law requiring you to remove graffitti from your property, it attracts more of the same. I see deer in town from time to time, but not as many as in the woods. They don't like it here so much. The woods is a good place for them. Snakes on your property are a danger, but if you want to get bit, by all means..... If you kill the ones there, it is one less every time. One less chance you don't get bit while turning on the gen at night. That part of the yard is not fenced. You just don't want them living where you do. That does not mean you have to shoot every snake you see. They are pretty cool, from a safe distance. We followed the one from about 20 ft that Rinkers Revenge almost stepped on by a cresote bush. Brown little bastard was hard to see, blends right in with the rocks and scrub. I wouldn't have shot him, but there are times. SOme people seem to think if you have a gun, you must look like John Rambo. You must take it to work and kill all your co-workers, the drive thru lady, the paper boy, crossing guard and anything else that walks or crawls. Maybe rob some banks on your way home from knocking off the liquor store. I have a wrench or two, it does not mean that I just enjoy fixing shit 24/7 or go out unbolting bank vault doors, just because I can. I use them when I need to. I also heard a snake can bite his tail and make a loop so he can roll down hills to attack you faster. That and a snake can rip a man's heart out and show it to him before he dies. Discussions like this always turn out funny.

Sorry for the delay, it has been a hectic week.

Posted by Skold No, you are doing inductive reasoning, based on a few unlikely situations. "When confronting you with the hard details of the situation you resigned to admit it was the same course you would have chosen." Remember when I said I'd rather a cop confront the person? Remember how I said I wouldn't want to be the one holding the gun as my right? I am not dancing around the situation, I am giving you a full answer.

Yes you said that you would rather a cop be there. There was no cop in the situation so it is not a valid alternative. This was an example of how gun safety laws succeeded in protecting the perpetrators, and thus how their excessiveness is deleterious. I put you in the situation, not of being the gunman, but of being another bystander knowing full well that the person next to you was armed and would confront the attacker. You admitted that it would be best not to stop that person, so the example stands.

Life is not all black and white, so stop expecting a one word answer/conclusion. Maybe I am looking too realistically into this situation but if I was THERE MYSELF I wouldn't be like OMG STOP BREAKING THE LAW, as I would be more concerned about getting the fuck away. HINT: crazy people = unpredictable people. Need I also remind you that she is a politician so a more likely attractor of crazy people who hate her.

Then you should be thankful if there were someone with a conceal and carry that takes him out or draws his fire before he shoots you. It certainly is your right to run and save your own ass, and I would too if unarmed, but there also is the more noble option of legally carrying a concealed weapon and using it if such a horrific event occurs. Just to assuage everyone's fears, everyone I have met with a conceal and carry was an excellent shot. I have heard unofficially that many (but not all) cops are pretty bad shots.

I cannot believe you are using the natural disaster's argument when you live in Boston! If wikipedia is to serve as my academic source, you have had two disasters, both before the 1920s, and both related to human error (fire and explosion), not nature. But if we play along with you little theory, natural disasters seem at least a little predictable, so there is no point in having these rules apply every single day JUST IN CASE. Also, looting seems to be done by everyday joes; I bet having a gun would sure make it easier to steal and hog dwindling resources!

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. It has happened, which is pretty good proof that it can happen. Like I said before, you can also choose to take the approach of not preparing for disasters and hope everything will always be alright. If you do, and a disaster like Katrina hits, make no mistake that it will be you and everyone else that is unprepared looting. If you do not believe me just imagine that electricity and water was shut off for your city indefinitely starting tomorrow morning. How long until things turned ugly?

As for my evidence, I did read the articles, but I'm not going to write academic essays on an internet forum as the abstracts get the point across. If you are interested, I'll email them to you and we can nit pick every point with 100% biased perspectives. In the meantime, I have yet to see any supported evidence or numbers from you, so keep it coming!

If you are not going to defend the articles you posted, which I had to search for, then you should not have bothered posting them. Also do not just post copied abstracts, post derivative conclusions valid to the current discussion with supporting facts and sources for those facts.

As for evidence from me, I do not have to provide any. Things are restricted when there is cause to do so, if people supporting restrictions fail to show this then it cannot be banned. This is how a non-oppressive society is run.

Since you asked though, I would like to cite an article from the NRA-ILA. Many people like to play the simple logic game that preventing people from owning guns makes the pool of available guns smaller and therefore fewer crimes involving guns should happen. This does not take into account that crimes with guns are rarely committed by people who own them legally, so legislation restricting those people is misguided and wrong. One year after Australia banned guns completely, where over 600,000 guns were destroyed, most crimes with guns went up. How can you resolve that data? Was the effect that only that the law abiding part of the population was left defenseless?
http://www.nraila....px?id=30&issue=015

Posted by junkyard I also heard a snake can bite his tail and make a loop so he can roll down hills to attack you faster. That and a snake can rip a man's heart out and show it to him before he dies. Discussions like this always turn out funny.

I don't believe any of the stuff I was told man. I'm only relaying the stories I heard as a kid whenever we drove through the area on the way to Lake George every summer.

Some people from all over the country actually take vacations in order to go see the snakes down there, that's how well known it is and how far the stories have spread. I've seen cars from as far away as Alaska parked at the trailheads in the Tongue Mountain area, most likely looking for the vicious timber rattler packs that supposedly roam the hills.

It's absurd, but what do you expect from tourist country? The stories get around, people come thousands of miles to see the "roving packs of vicious snakes". What's even more funny is that usually they aren't disappointed because there's usually plenty of them just off the paths. I am dead serious about that. There are usually lots of them hanging around in the bushes. Why, I have no freaking clue, but there's usually tons of them around, even though the population has supposedly declined to the point where people are believing that these stupid damn snakes should be declared endangered. There are even tour guides and hunting guides that will show you how to find the snakes and their dens.

Shael

Posted by Seventh Stage Since you asked though, I would like to cite an article from the NRA-ILA. Many people like to play the simple logic game that preventing people from owning guns makes the pool of available guns smaller and therefore fewer crimes involving guns should happen. This does not take into account that crimes with guns are rarely committed by people who own them legally, so legislation restricting those people is misguided and wrong. One year after Australia banned guns completely, where over 600,000 guns were destroyed, most crimes with guns went up. How can you resolve that data? Was the effect that only that the law abiding part of the population was left defenseless? http://www.nraila....px?id=30&issue=015

Well, I didn't think I'd be contributing to this thread, but here I am!

The Australian case is really not a comparable one. Most Australian city dwellers only ever see guns if a police officer has one on their belt, both before and after the buy back scheme. Nobody was left defenseless - it was fairly irrelevant to everyday life for most people.

Snopes has a good discussion on it:
http://www.snopes....istics/ausguns.asp

Posted by Samurai actually, i hate to be a killjoy here, but on Tongue Mountain near Lake George NY, anyone hunting or hiking on that mountain is encouraged to bring a firearm due to the rattlesnakes on the mountain. Yes, rattlesnakes in New York state. wow.

still, I don't see how a gun will stop a snake bite for the average person. I'll give you construction worker. Putting your hand in an engine, clearing a ditch: you're paid to do it and there isn't really backing down in that situation. Hiking, exploring, living: they all give you chances to back down and walk away from the snake before it bites (if you didn't sneak up on it, surprise it, wake up with it in your sleeping bag, etc.)

They bite or they don't: gun or no gun.

You can make the case with some other animals to a certain degree, but I will generally disagree that guns are for protection against animals. Not to rain on any parades; I do think guns are useful and great, but they are specific.