Posted by velcrozeppelin The simple fact about this article and everything everyone has said so far is that the Big 3 had such a pissing contest that they were competing only with each other and did not have the foresight or humility to make the decisions that the Japanese did. If they knew that Japan was going to a) be such a big influence and b) actually get it right. It's a matter of pride, and now American Auto is paying the price. It's unfortunate, but true.

The only reason i posted this article was to illustrate the fact that the big 3 failed after the beginning of the 70's. But people like Sam have to get all pissy and turn it into a who's car is better and more cool and more reliable thread. Sam, how can you sit there and belittle yourself being a fan of American automotive electronics, plastics,...overall design?

You know how a window goes up and down in a Japanese car? A switch, motor, gears, and rail inside the door.

You know how a window goes up and down in am American car? A switch sealed in some sort of silicon bullshit, a piece of dental floss to open a relay to allow electricity through to another relay hidden somewhere in the car to fuck over shadetree mechanics, 2 rails inside the door with a motor in between them, 10 miles of bicycle brake cable attached to a spool on the motor to move the window up and down, and just to top it off, some totally awesome special screws different from any other fucking screw in the car so you have to put everything down, fuck up whatever you were holding in place, dig through your toolbox to find the correct tool, return to the part, and continue to install, only to drop the window regulator rails and have the wire eject from the spool, and have to take everything apart again just to fix a part that came apart on the last screw of the job.

Truth in American automotive engineering. Its small things like this that make people sick of American POS passenger cars and flock over to something that makes sense from an ENGINEERING and RELIABILITY standpoint. We aren't trying to fuck over our country here, but American cars have been ASS UGLY and UNDEPENDABLE since the 64 Impala and the 70's Mopar shit. Why the hell should we suffer just to be loyal? Thats bs.

Posted by Nismo

I'm getting real tired of your trolling

Posted by Nismo all crappy companies building ugly shitty cars, hope they all get canned.

It's post like this and such, Provoke arguments. When they know someone likes something and will get defensive over it.

My brother had an explorer, Damn thing never had a problem. Besides the battery dying. Other then that, Thing was pretty solid.

Posted by Samurai and bringing this all back to the thread concept... whoever wrote this article that Big Dave found was an idiot, an inept idiot more intent on starting trouble than actually looking at or researching his subject matter.

Again, Samarui look at my first comment. I've been told that from MANY people who have worked on publishing about how these "Top 10" lists have been made. So feel free to go use it as toliet paper.

Posted by big dave The only reason i posted this article was to illustrate the fact that the big 3 failed after the beginning of the 70's. But people like Sam have to get all pissy and turn it into a who's car is better and more cool and more reliable thread. Sam, how can you sit there and belittle yourself being a fan of American automotive electronics, plastics,...overall design? You know how a window goes up and down in a Japanese car? A switch, motor, gears, and rail inside the door. You know how a window goes up and down in am American car? A switch sealed in some sort of silicon bullshit, a piece of dental floss to open a relay to allow electricity through to another relay hidden somewhere in the car to fuck over shadetree mechanics, 2 rails inside the door with a motor in between them, 10 miles of bicycle brake cable attached to a spool on the motor to move the window up and down, and just to top it off, some totally awesome special screws different from any other fucking screw in the car so you have to put everything down, fuck up whatever you were holding in place, dig through your toolbox to find the correct tool, return to the part, and continue to install, only to drop the window regulator rails and have the wire eject from the spool, and have to take everything apart again just to fix a part that came apart on the last screw of the job. Truth in American automotive engineering. Its small things like this that make people sick of American POS passenger cars and flock over to something that makes sense from an ENGINEERING and RELIABILITY standpoint. We aren't trying to fuck over our country here, but American cars have been ASS UGLY and UNDEPENDABLE since the 64 Impala and the 70's Mopar shit. Why the hell should we suffer just to be loyal? Thats bs.

Dave, you're a good egg and i'm glad that you're on this board and forum and if I lived in Long Beach I'd call you a friend, but sometimes i think you're talking out your ass.

Posted by big dave The only reason i posted this article was to illustrate the fact that the big 3 failed after the beginning of the 70's. But people like Sam have to get all pissy and turn it into a who's car is better and more cool and more reliable thread. Sam, how can you sit there and belittle yourself being a fan of American automotive electronics, plastics,...overall design? You know how a window goes up and down in a Japanese car? A switch, motor, gears, and rail inside the door. You know how a window goes up and down in am American car? A switch sealed in some sort of silicon bullshit, a piece of dental floss to open a relay to allow electricity through to another relay hidden somewhere in the car to fuck over shadetree mechanics, 2 rails inside the door with a motor in between them, 10 miles of bicycle brake cable attached to a spool on the motor to move the window up and down, and just to top it off, some totally awesome special screws different from any other fucking screw in the car so you have to put everything down, fuck up whatever you were holding in place, dig through your toolbox to find the correct tool, return to the part, and continue to install, only to drop the window regulator rails and have the wire eject from the spool, and have to take everything apart again just to fix a part that came apart on the last screw of the job. Truth in American automotive engineering. Its small things like this that make people sick of American POS passenger cars and flock over to something that makes sense from an ENGINEERING and RELIABILITY standpoint. We aren't trying to fuck over our country here, but American cars have been ASS UGLY and UNDEPENDABLE since the 64 Impala and the 70's Mopar shit. Why the hell should we suffer just to be loyal? Thats bs.

Totally ignored my post. And there have been plenty of popularly accepted and attractive domestic vehicles produced since then. Your personal subjective opinions do not apply. I could simply state my opinion that Toyota hasn't produced an attractive looking vehicle since the mid-90s mini trucks, and Hondas have only been attractive in motorcycle form because all of their cars resemble ugly sneakers.

Additionally, your description of working on a door assembly has absolutely nothing to do with any domestic car I've had to work on so far, but I have worked on German cars like that as well as Japanese ones. In my truck it is simply two tracks, a power window regulator with a small replaceable motor attached, and the switch. All the bolts are the same.

VW/Audi has terrible reliability in my experience. Cool/fun to drive cars, but they are no Corolla. Hell they even made all the wires to the instrument cluster the same color on one car I saw so shadetree mechanics would have a pain in the ass trying to figure out a repair!

engineering and reliability?
what a crock of shit.

sit on your favorite busy street some day with a notebook.
keep an honest running tally of what old cars you see going by.

I've seen just as many domestics up here crack 200,000 miles with no sweat as those goddamn Japanese fantasies on wheels. Perfect examples:

Ford Taurus 3.0L V6... run forever if you keep up with the transmission service.
(the 3.8 Taurii ate head gaskets like they were free)
Chevy Lumina 3.1L and 3.8L- run 300,000 with routine ease. Check www.w-body.com.. they keep a running tally on who has the most miles and what their repairs have been
(i excluded the 3400 Twin Cam V6 because it always was a troubled little engine with big balls... 225hp out of a 3.4L isn't bad, and in the earlier Z34 models, it was equipped with a manual transmission)
Ford Escort/Mercury Tracer- ugly as sin, but run forever.
hehehe!

my taurus = constant heating issues, cant fix the fucking thing cause could be 1000 diffrent things, water pump, heater core, some electronic valve in the dashboard etc. the big 3 should just start designing things that are fun to drive and fun to look at.

Retail for my 2001 taurus $19,325
for my 2001 jetta $19,450

Interior differences



My jetta is dirt cheap on parts and super easy to fix, took me 30 mins to change my valve cover last night. My taurus goes through bearings and link kits like its no tomorrow. The big 3 are so behind compared to any one else its sad.

oh and dont get me started about my F250 i use for work

Lets end this at Samarui has the golden touch and Nismo has the crap touch...

I have a relative who works for V.O.A., he's originally from Ireland. I also know someone that's a tech. They both have differing opinions. While I like veedubs, they're not the most reliable cars on the road at all (especially the generation of Jetta Nismo has) and parts are expensive!

Blue is the worst color for dash lights as well, with red being the best. I could never live with that I'd go blind!

All that being said, those last generation Taurii weren't great either.

My plan is to just stockpile 94-96 GM B-bodies and 88-95 GM full sized trucks while living in a shack and pooping in an outhouse until society collapses.

I'm A grease monkey!!!! I work on and own Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Nissan, Honda, Rambler, Triumph, BMW, BSA, KTM, Harley, Husqvarna, Yamaha. This is the current crop, not counting many prior brands owned. All have their good points and bad points. I guess I just love motor vehicles in general cause I cant pick a brand that is my favorite. I dig each of my vehicles for a particular reason, and just deal with problems as they arise and try to make the repairs better than the before, sometimes I fail!! Sometimes a home run, whatever! It's my hobby.

You guys blow me away with your knowledge of vehicles, motors, production problems, build dates, and on and on.

I think you should put your grease monkey brains to good use and solve some of my automotive related problems and issues.

if you know the right people VW parts are just as cheap as any other car. I got a brand new OEM MAF for 110 bucks, valve gasket kit for 20 bucks, coil pack for 40 bucks, DV for 15 bucks. You just gotta know where to shop and have the right contacts

Posted by Nismo if you know the right people VW parts are just as cheap as any other car. I got a brand new OEM MAF for 110 bucks, valve gasket kit for 20 bucks, coil pack for 40 bucks, DV for 15 bucks. You just gotta know where to shop and have the right contacts

Why should I need "connections" to get parts for my car. If it breaks I want to fix it, However I don't want to have to call someone to call someone to overnight parts from japan son.

because why should they give everybody and their brother a discount or garage price? its all about contacts

The main reason Detroit was fucked? Straight out; no one wants to buy a brand new American Car. Automakers make their money off the New MSRP. Most people I know who buy domestic, buy them used.

People who don't make a lot of money can get a "like new" used car at an affordable price. That is the PRIMARY BENEFIT FOR OUR NATION in keeping the domestic car companies alive. So the low class and lower middle class can have a vehicle. Bank of America wouldn't give me a car loan for a car older than 5 year. If you expect the Average American making Minimum Wage to pay $10,000 for a 2004 Camry or $4000 for a 2004 Cavalier. Which do you think they will get an approved loan for. Which will they be able to pay off?

_{Without my mom's co-signature I wouldn't have gotten approved for a car loan. What is sad is; I can easily afford my car payments. 185/month isn't bad. Even at minimum wage. But I don't have a rent/child support/college that I have to pay for. I couldn't have kept up on a 36 month (290/month) loan only because of college. I do not desire to keep a steady job while at college. And the longer loan will establish more credit.}

Posted by Nismo because why should they give everybody and their brother a discount or garage price? its all about contacts

dude! seriously... WTF???

When my vehicle breaks, I want to go down and get the parts for it and fix it. I EXPECT to get an honest and fair deal on parts prices. I also EXPECT to not have to make parts purchases like drug deals. That bullshit is completely retarded.

As was mentioned earlier by someone else, I am getting very weary of your trolling, and I am getting EXTREMELY weary of everyone trying to tell everyone else here that they are "just fucking wrong!"

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. Everyone may have a different opinion. That opinion has been formed by whatever that person believes. You can't make someone believe what you believe just by telling them that they are wrong. ALL of you ASS-FUCK WIND-BAGS need to GET OVER YOURSELVES. Different vehicles have different features. Discussion of these features is fine, but when it devolves into mud-slinging (AS IT ALWAYS DOES) it just becomes stupid and tedious.

You need to grow the fuck up and open your mind. All of you. (waves cane) </curmudgeon>

fine go pay full retail price for your parts, i dont care, if it makes you happy go for it. Im just saying if you know the right people you can save money. Valve covert gasket kit at the dealer was 80 bucks, went to my friend small auto parts shop, 20 dollars OEM quality. So go buy over priced parts if it makes you feel better.

Posted by Nismo fine go pay full retail price for your parts, i dont care, if it makes you happy go for it. Im just saying if you know the right people you can save money. Valve covert gasket kit at the dealer was 80 bucks, went to my friend small auto parts shop, 20 dollars OEM quality. So go buy over priced parts if it makes you feel better.

i never pay full price
i have connections at two (yes, TWO) Chevrolet dealerships and i get wicked discounts on whatever parts or accessories I want or need. I have an account at both NAPA and Advance Auto, and as a former employee, Bond Auto over in Vermont will slide me a nice discout as well.
In the salvage yard department, I have two on speed dial and a third that i work for off and on.

continuing, honestly it's not the cars that's the issue. it's this fairy tale that one make or nationality of a car is better than any other. i've worked on too damn many of them to believe that one nationality of car is mystically better built than another.

Now take Nismo for instance. I hate picking on the boy, but let's take his series of posts... if you knew what you were doing, you would not have purchased a front wheel drive Ford. They are notorious for eating front ends. The design is just not heavy enough for American/Canadian roads or carrying a V6 engine. So ok, that design was meh... you got me there. With your heating issue... take it one step at a time, always with the cheapest, easiest fix first. It's called process of elimination. Sometimes, unfortunately, it's the only way to diagnose a problem and repair it.

Another point I would like to bring up is that much of this data is out of date, or just out and out bullshit.
you guys are glossing over the fact that before the economy tanked, GM was selling cars at a good pace. It was the triple whammy of fuel costs, shrinking Truck and SUV market, and the tanking economy that put them where they are today. Also, Ford did not require any of this so-called bailout money... testament that their cars were on the way to profitability again. While the Cobalt and G5 did not win rave reviews (the SS did however), they were cute enough, equipped enough and priced right that people were buying every one that rolled off the assembly line in Ohio. In fact, before the economic catastrophe, GM had added a 3rd shift at the Lordstown plant to keep up with demand. Look at the Malibu. Many of the auto scribes that most import-centric airheads read raved about the Malibu and stated that Camry, Accord and fucking Sonata had better watch their back.

Again, i pick on Nismo, but his posts stand out the most to me. He is talking about cars that are old, beat to hell (especially in the Montreal area... i've driven those roads in winter and summer!). Of course, you're going to have problems, for crying out loud. But, I'm sure we will never hear about it if your Volkswagen breaks down, or has a part fail, will we?

Cars are machines built by humans. Humans are flawed and by proxy their machines are destined to break down and cost your ass some money. I am almost tired of defending something I am very close to and that really makes me wonder... what will happen if people like me stop caring and my beloved Chevrolets are relegated to the history books parked next AMC, Hudson and Oldsmobile...

thanks alot for dooming the rest of to driving imported, soul-less shitboxes that have the personality of dishwasher.
ok... that last statement was me having some fun...
i love drama...

INCORRECT ON ALL FRONTS!

So what we have here in this thread is a bunch of car enthusiasts and gear heads (no disrespect meant as I am one too) pontificating about the economics of the car business.

The cars didn't FUCK Detroit.
The Cavalier, Astro van, Taurus Exploder, Hummer.... none of those cars singlehandedly or collectively fucked the companies that make them. Save for Hummer which is NOT a mass brand, its a niche market... (and i will ALWAYS comment on them because I own one) ALL of the above sold ass loads of cars. That doesn't happen by accident, nor does it continue year after year decade after decade by accident.

Now back to what FUCKED Detroit. The business model fucked Detroit.
There is way more retired workers receiving benefits and pensions (which they are rightly entitled to by the union contracts) then there is active employees. So... they pay more people NOT to build, sell, engineer etc.. their products then they are paying to build, sell engineer them. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO SURVIVE IN BUSINESS THAT WAY! EVENTUALLY YOU RUN OUT OF CASH!!!



Interesting article along the same lines as this thread started. TIME magazines 50 worst cars.
http://www.time.co...als/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1657686,00.html