Posted by Mr_Fiend Those religions are false. Yes, you are right, millions of people find peace in Islam or Buddism, whatever, I'm not denying that. Those religions WILL NOT save your soul! Yes, God loves everyone, period, but if they do not accept Him and have sin in their lives, He cant let them into heaven (life, or eternal life as also referred to in the bible). And how do you know God is there, and your not worshiping the wrong god? Whenever I walk into a church (an evengelical church to be exact) I feel God presence there, and thats more than enough to convince me.

But they same the same things about Christianity. Or is there a Hindu heaven, where only good hindus go? Your religious beliefs are a product primarily of the accident of your birth. Had you been born in India, you very well may have been posting the same thing about Vishnu. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia, about Allah (I am aware, of course, that he is the same God as the one in the Bible). Had you been born 1000 years ago in Norway, you'd have been posting about Wotan or Thor. I could provide several more examples, but I won't. The point I'm making is that all of those religions (and please don't continue the semantic argument about whether Christianity is a religion or not) are or were as real to their followers as Christianity is to you. They all believed they were the one true faith, and that all other belief systems were false. Had the Vikings managed to conquer more of the world and spread their beliefs rather than the Christians, we'd all be singing a different tune right now.

They can't all be true. Christianity is only "true" because you (and multitudes of others) believe it to be, and because your holy book says it is. But I have a book that says a guy with a pipe named Bob is the true savior, because he offers eternal salvation or triple your money back. Why is your book true and mine is not? Or vice versa?

I also stand by my assertion that "religious" experiences, or whatever you want to call them, are indistinguishable from hallucinations or other psychosomatic disorders. How does one know the difference? There was a woman not long ago who drowned her children in the bathtub because, according to her, God told her to. It's not much different than the story of Abraham, is it? But I think she's been universally derided as a psychotic.

You can't trust your senses. Ever seen the video of the people dribbling and passing basketballs to each other? Watch it, I think you'll be amazed:
http://www.youtube...atch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4

Carl Sagan was fond of saying "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." There is no extraorindary evidence beyond your own flawed perceptions.

Posted by splumer The point I'm making is that all of those religions (and please don't continue the semantic argument about whether Christianity is a religion or not) are or were as real to their followers as Christianity is to you. They all believed they were the one true faith, and that all other belief systems were false.

Its all about intentions, those other religions focus on bettering yourself and becoming one with something or some BS like that. They do not focus on saving the souls of lost poeple, and some even kill "infidiles" that dont believe what they do (Islam). Christianity IS the only "religion" that has a God that Loves everyone, created everything, was here before everything, and will be here when everything ends. And Allah, is not the same god as the Christians, thats a lie meant to make Islam sound peaceful and similar to Christianity, its not at all. The Koran teaches its followers to kill unbelievers, look it up. Doesnt sound like the true living God to me.

Posted by splumer There was a woman not long ago who drowned her children in the bathtub because, according to her, God told her to. It's not much different than the story of Abraham, is it? But I think she's been universally derided as a psychotic.

Abraham never killed his son Isaac, it was test to see if he would obey God.

Posted by splumer Carl Sagan was fond of saying "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." There is no extraorindary evidence beyond your own flawed perceptions.

To repeat myself again, Faith... I'm not going to place the future of my soul in the hands of an educated fool that was born into a world of sin. The only men I will remotely trust my soul with are the ones who have been "re-born" and have been forgiven of their past sinful life and are obeying God. Even then, men can be wrong, so I only truly trust the Lord. He has never lied to me, He has never deceived me, He has blessed me even though I grew up poor, He has healed me, and He has given me answers and understanding. And He has given me all that even though I havent lived a fully righteous life, I havent prayed everyday, I havent read the bible as much as I should, I've lived the "wild party life", and yet he still blessed me because I acknowledged him as my father and asked for forgiveness. I didnt deserve to be blessed and have eternal life (eternal life of the soul) but he gave it to me anyways. From what I understand, no other god is like my God, that is why it is the only truth.


I believe here soon, things will start to happen, more wars, more death, more sin, more hopelessness. And people will be looking for a place to turn, someone to worship, someone to give them hope. And I for one wont turn to some statue to worship, or a man, or some god that has done nothing for them. There is only one truth that will save them, and its what I've written here. Try reading the book of Revelations, just give it a shot. And remember, the bible is full of metaphors, its not just weird stories, they have meaning.


What I am explaining here is the non-denominational Christian faith broken down in the most simplest form I can explain.

Hopefully I'm clearing some common misconseptions here, especially since this is wearing me out haha.

tl/dr this entire thread.

haha, this is getting kind of time consuming, huh? I feel like I'm Tekriter or something.

When you start to question God, doubt begins to take over you. And to repeat myself, Its all based on Faith, and if you have doubt, you cant believe and you cant have Faith. If I tried, and I mean really tried to rationalize God in a physical sense with my earthly mind, I cant, and there is the beginning of doubt in God. Again, believe or dont believe.

That is absolutely true. But think about it from my point of view, in which the meaning of two words is a little different. I would say it thusly:

When you start to question God, common sense begins to take over you. And to repeat myself, Its all based on gullibility, and if you have common sense, you cant believe and you cant have gullibility. If I tried, and I mean really tried to rationalize God in a physical sense with my earthly mind, I cant, and there is the beginning of common sense about God. Again, believe or dont believe.

I know that's a little harsh, but those terms mean pretty much the same thing, they just have different negative and positive connotations. Religion does this a lot. They use words with strong positive and negative connotations to change the emotional impact of true statements.

God loves everyone, period, but if they do not accept Him and have sin in their lives, He cant let them into heaven (life, or eternal life as also referred to in the bible).

Ok, let's say that's true for the sake of argument. I try my best to live a good life. I help people when I can, try my best to be honest and not cause pain or grief to others. The only problem is, in this scenario, God has given me a brain that for the lack of a better term, needs to see to believe. For this egregious sin, God, who loves me very much, will take me and set me on fire. A burning, excruciating fire that will cause me to scream and writhe as my skin boils in its own juices. And not just until death comes, no. He will set me on fire and keep me there, living, experiencing, not for minutes, hours, days, months, or years. But Millions and Billions of years. For eternity.

And this is not just true for me, a person who has heard of Jesus and rejected him. But what about the millions of kind, loving people on this world who were born and died without ever hearing about Jesus? God loves them so much that he will set THEM on fire for eternity, too? A holocaust so horrendous that it strains the limits of imagination.

I'm sorry, but any parent who would light their children on fire for ANY transgression, much less such a minor one, is not a loving parent. They are a murderous, unfeeling psychopath. I would not want to be in heaven with such a being even if it existed.

And how do you know God is there, and your not worshiping the wrong god? Whenever I walk into a church (an evengelical church to be exact) I feel God presence there, and thats more than enough to convince me.

Aha! That's the thing! This is, I think, the root of it. I think the basic problem with religion is the circular reasoning.

You say there is a God.

I ask, how do you know there is a God?

You say, because it says so in the Bible.

I ask, how do you know the Bible true?

You say, because God wrote it.

I ask, how do you know there is a God?

You say, because it says so in the Bible.

I ask, how do you know the Bible true?

You say, because God wrote it.

And so forth into infinity. You can add as many sub-questions in between those basic ones as you want, but in the end, a religious argument always loops back on itself. Until the religious person gets tired of saying the same thing over and over again, at which point, you must "have faith."

What you just said above, though, is the one thing that breaks that cycle. That FEELING you get when you walk into a church. THAT is tangible evidence which doesn't loop back on some other claim! I know, because that is what kept me not just going to church, but truly believing, for so many years.

But unfortunately, that is where this ceases to be a debate, and becomes two people who have to agree to disagree. Because with all the circular arguments and internal inconsistencies of religion, I stuck with it until I made this single realization: That feeling is wonderful, but it contains no information whatsoever. The whole, tangled bird's nest of claims and beliefs that make up a religion is held together with that one piece of evidence, but sadly, it is only circumstantial. We humans are emotional creatures, and those heart strings can be played by an infinite number of bows. Churches are set up to elicit those feelings through a combination of strong social ties, emotionally charged music and stories, and periods of strong meditation.

I can still tear up, and feel a deep surge of feeling in my heart when I hear the story of Christ's Crucifixion. But I feel the same thing when Gandalf dies in The Fellowship of the Ring, and even when Jack dies in Titanic. Feelings are your mind's response to the stories you see and hear, and at no point do those feelings come from some exterior source, nor do they prove the story true. If they do, then You won't be hearing from me for a while, because I've got the ruins of Middle Earth to go discover.

Yes, that story is thought provoking. But, Ive seen what God can do if you believe in him, and He certainly doesnt tease you with a little prize in a box if you do good for ten years. Once you accept Him, he gives you eternal life instantly (eternal life of the soul, not body!), you dont have to earn it, its been yours from day one, you just have to accept it. He wants you to have life with Him forever because He created you and loves you.

I guess I was having a little too much fun with the parable, but here is the meaning thereof. The Wealthy Merchant is religion. The Gem of great worth is God, and eternal life with him. The box is the limitation of our human perception. Religion claims that there is a God and that you can be with him someday. Only, there are a few things you have to do, first. You can't see God, but sometimes the box does rattle in the form of religious experiences.

Religion claims the rattle is evidence of the gem inside. However, there is a possibility that it is actually a marble, or a piece of gravel, or a tooth, or a million other things. It could even be an actual diamond that's only worth half of what the merchant claims. The merchant might be a con man. But he also might be an honest man, who has never looked in the box for himself, and only believes it contains a gem because the man who gave it to him said so. Maybe he's crazy, and the box contains an old jolly rancher that he THINKS is a priceless jewel. There is no way to know. So, you are the first man. You take the merchant at his word, and take the rattle as proof. I am the second man, who who needs more proof than a rattle, and I think that I am justified in expecting that. Unfortunately, the box only opens when we die, at the end of the 10 years. At this time, either I will be right, and you will have blown a lot of work and effort on an old jolly rancher, or you will be right, and I will be really wishing I took the offer when I had the chance. The only thing is, the odds are like a million, billion, trillion to one against you you being right, so I'm not that worried.

Posted by Kbasa tl/dr this entire thread.

Haha, for sure. I'm only reading it because I'm the one writing it! Don't mind us.

Posted by Mr_Fiend And Allah, is not the same god as the Christians, thats a lie meant to make Islam sound peaceful and similar to Christianity, its not at all. The Koran teaches its followers to kill unbelievers, look it up. Doesnt sound like the true living God to me.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity are usually referred to as the "Abrahamic relgions." Allah and Jehovah/Yahweh are generally acknowledged to be be the same.

Abraham never killed his son Isaac, it was test to see if he would obey God.

But had not God stayed his hand, he would have killed him, and there are other examples in the Bible of people killing because God told them to. I can't cite them from memory. How did Abe know that it was truly God speaking to him and not psychosis?

To repeat myself again, Faith... I'm not going to place the future of my soul in the hands of an educated fool that was born into a world of sin. The only men I will remotely trust my soul with are the ones who have been "re-born" and have been forgiven of their past sinful life and are obeying God. Even then, men can be wrong, so I only truly trust the Lord.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

He has never lied to me, He has never deceived me, He has blessed me even though I grew up poor, He has healed me, and He has given me answers and understanding. And He has given me all that even though I havent lived a fully righteous life, I havent prayed everyday, I havent read the bible as much as I should, I've lived the "wild party life", and yet he still blessed me because I acknowledged him as my father and asked for forgiveness. I didnt deserve to be blessed and have eternal life (eternal life of the soul) but he gave it to me anyways. From what I understand, no other god is like my God, that is why it is the only truth.

And how do you know that for sure? You just believe it to be true. How can you trust your own judgement? Like you said men can be wrong.

I believe here soon, things will start to happen, more wars, more death, more sin, more hopelessness. And people will be looking for a place to turn, someone to worship, someone to give them hope. And I for one wont turn to some statue to worship, or a man, or some god that has done nothing for them. There is only one truth that will save them, and its what I've written here. Try reading the book of Revelations, just give it a shot. And remember, the bible is full of metaphors, its not just weird stories, they have meaning.

Revelation is the one book I have read. I have no need of that hypothesis.

What does "tl/dr" mean?

post by splumer What does "tl/dr" mean?

Too long; didn't read.

Ugh, I'm gonna try to wrap this up.

Posted by Avius The only problem is, in this scenario, God has given me a brain that for the lack of a better term, needs to see to believe. For this egregious sin, God, who loves me very much, will take me and set me on fire.

It didnt use to be like that, before sin was in the world, we would have been able to physically see God and he would have walked around with us in person. Ref Genesis. Things changed when sin came into the world. And He wont be the one torturing you, that would be satan. God isnt going to torment your soul, He wants to save it. And he cant let you into heaven if you have sinned and havent accepted him as you're Lord, He said that, not me.

Posted by Avius But what about the millions of kind, loving people on this world who were born and died without ever hearing about Jesus? God loves them so much that he will set THEM on fire for eternity, too?

Yet another good point. God will judge everyone, so who am I to judge peoples souls? God wants us to go around the world and reach everyone so they have had a chance to hear the truth and repent. I dont know how those people who havent heard will be judged.

Posted by Avius I'm sorry, but any parent who would light their children on fire for ANY transgression, much less such a minor one, is not a loving parent. They are a murderous, unfeeling psychopath. I would not want to be in heaven with such a being even if it existed.

You are either for God or you are against Him. If you dissobey Him and side with satan, satan has control over your life and owns your soul, not God. God gave us a free will so we could decide who to worship. He wanted us to love him by choice, not to force us. So, as said before, we have a choice of life and death, he wont make us choose. Making us chose would not be love, even if it means death. He gave us the the chance.

Posted by Avius Unfortunately, the box only opens when we die, at the end of the 10 years. At this time, either I will be right, and you will have blown a lot of work and effort on an old jolly rancher, or you will be right, and I will be really wishing I took the offer when I had the chance. The only thing is, the odds are like a million, billion, trillion to one against you you being right, so I'm not that worried.

You're correct, in the end we will know who was wrong and who was right. BUT, I know without a pinch of doubt that what I believe is true, can you say that about what you believe?

I'd like to point out that the chances of the "big bang" (also referred to as the big bang THEORY) was something similar to million, billion odds that something could come out of nothing and form into something then over millions of years become life that is in perfect harmony with itself, all out of a chaotic explosion that came from nothing. I'm guessing you believe something similar to that since you dont believe in God anymore. So looks like by the worlds standards, our beliefs are equal in terms of chances of being right.

Posted by splumer Islam, Judaism and Christianity are usually referred to as the "Abrahamic relgions." Allah and Jehovah/Yahweh are generally acknowledged to be be the same.

Yes, the world believes that but Christians dont.

Posted by splumer But had not God stayed his hand, he would have killed him, and there are other examples in the Bible of people killing because God told them to. I can't cite them from memory. How did Abe know that it was truly God speaking to him and not psychosis?

Abraham alread had a relationship with God before hand, He knew it was Him. And remember, it was a test. Yes, you're right, God commanded people to kill, only in specific instances where it was necessary. If you read the bible you will understand. God also knows the hearts of men, so He knows if they are saveable or not. Saddam and Gamora is a good example of His presence being lifted off a city and everything and everyone being destroyed because of all the sin.

Posted by splumer And how do you know that for sure? You just believe it to be true. How can you trust your own judgement? Like you said men can be wrong.

I'm not trusting my judgement, Its just common sense to me. I believe because other the other beliefs out there dont even begin to stack up the endless possibilities of God and believing in Him. I've seen Him work, and I've experienced it. I can only do so much to convince people, the rest you have to experience to believe.

Posted by Mr_Fiend Ugh, I'm gonna try to wrap this up.

Yeah, that's cool. This thread is turning me into the sort of asshole atheist I never wanted to be.

in the end we will know who was wrong and who was right. BUT, I know without a pinch of doubt that what I believe is true, can you say that about what you believe?

I can NOT say that. In fact, I can say emphatically that I DON'T know; There is SO MUCH we don't know, Like what touched off the big bang, and how life started, plus a billion other things. But, instead of making up stories about magic people who live in the sky, we are using the scientific method to figure out the actual answers. And that is AWESOME.

Saying "God did it" doesn't really answer any questions anyway. It just moves them one more step up the ladder. How did God do it? If life is so complex that it could never have started by itself, then how did God, who is allegedly way more complex than mere life, start all by himself? In this way, answering a question with "God did it" only doubles the number of questions; you don't realize it, but you have just as many unanswered questions as I do.

Anyway, I don't have any problem with your personal faith, and I'm glad it gives meaning to your life. I guess the reason I get sucked into arguments like this is because some people who share your faith use it as a reason to impede humanity's progress in some scientific endeavors, start ridiculous wars, and stick pamphlets on my front door. That is fucking with the quality of my life, and will probably fuck with the quality of the lives of my children, which pisses me off. Nothing personal.

P.S.- The biggest annoyance of being an atheist? After we all die and peacefully cease to exist- I'll never be able to say I told you so.

Posted by Mr_Fiend I havent read the bible as much as I should, I've lived the "wild party life", and yet he still blessed me because I acknowledged him as my father and asked for forgiveness.

Was there Kool-Aid at this party?

Church indoctrination follows exactly the process of brainwashing.

Brainwashing is any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual's sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making. Sound familiar, anyone?

You can talk dogma all day, but it is clear that you do not understand, nor are you psychologically capable of asking critical questions about your unjustified beliefs.

The words you have been given, as the Red Queen from Alice in Wonderland says "mean what I choose them to mean". So much so that your arguments are a catalogue of logical fallacy, and sad in a very profound way.

Faith is an excuse to stop asking why, an irrational shortcut to arriving at the goal of your wishful thinking.

You have no personal knowledge of a god or a jesus. There is no evidence, the contradictions are overwhelming, and yet you persist. Maybe that is why you are tired.

The bible is not the inerrant word of god - it is the inconsistent collection of superstitions and hopes of iron age desert dwellers, mistranslated by scared sycophants and edited by a self serving business interests in Rome.


There are no such things as personal beliefs. Every irrational idea in your head affects your decisions about the world and those around you to thier detriment.

Here is an illuminating contradiction: According to 1 Corinthians (13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things..) Blind faith is required.

However:

Proverbs 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

In the SAME book, it is suggested that some critical thinking might be required.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

Posted by tekriter Was there Kool-Aid at this party? 1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. In the SAME book, it is suggested that some critical thinking might be required. Discuss amongst yourselves. edited for brevity

I wondered when you'd chime in.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There is no evidence any god exists. You too, Mr. Fiend, are also an atheist. You don't believe in Wotan, Marduk, Zeus, Moroni, or J.R. "Bob" Dobbs. Tekriter, Avius and I just go one god further.

If Yahweh is indeed the creator of everything, then he's one sadistic bastard, mixing our reproductive and excretory organs together, and having us eat and breathe through the same hole. (Whales and dolphins have it easy) He, in his infinite wisdom, also saw fit to wrap our vas deferens around our urethras, rather than having them take the more obvious shortcut straight to our wangs from our nards. This made my vasectomy much more painful than it needed to be, I can assure you.

But, Mr. Fiend, please don't take this as a personal attack. I don't know you personally, and we're all urban explorers. All I ask is that you turn your critical thinking switch back on. You may find it enlightening.

Posted by Avius This thread is turning me into the sort of asshole atheist I never wanted to be.

Haha, na. Atheist, yes, asshole, no. You're just asking very legitamate questions. Unlike tekriter here. I've got nothing against you dude, but I seriously think by the way you type that you love to hear yourself talk. You're very, very proud of your "question everything and make all your opinions sound like fact" mind. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but its just agitating and makes you sound like an arogant prick, which I'm sure your not.

Posted by Avius P.S.- The biggest annoyance of being an atheist? After we all die and peacefully cease to exist- I'll never be able to say I told you so.

Alright, lets just agree to disagree here. I believe we have presented both our sides very well. Here's the thing though, we will all die, I'm just taking the chance of believing in something that I believe will save my soul. It cant hurt to believe in that, right? I'd rather have full faith in life after death and have a chance of being wrong, than believing in no life after death and having no soul and being wrong about that. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by believing in God.

Posted by splumer You too, Mr. Fiend, are also an atheist. You don't believe in Wotan, Marduk, Zeus, Moroni, or J.R. "Bob" Dobbs. Tekriter, Avius and I just go one god further.

Ha! Well, if thats how you want to define it, then guess I'm an atheist then. Doesnt matter what you define me as, doesnt change what I believe.

Posted by splumer If Yahweh is indeed the creator of everything, then he's one sadistic bastard, mixing our reproductive and excretory organs together, and having us eat and breathe through the same hole. (Whales and dolphins have it easy) He, in his infinite wisdom, also saw fit to wrap our vas deferens around our urethras, rather than having them take the more obvious shortcut straight to our wangs from our nards. This made my vasectomy much more painful than it needed to be, I can assure you.

Lol WTF? Everything works just fine on me, no complaints about what goes where or what comes out here. Any problems people have with their bodies is a result of sin, of which everyone is born into. God created the human body, the devil twisted it. Some people dont want to except that such a merciful God would allow horrible things to happen and let an evil devil rule peoples lives. Satan runs the ship down here on earth, thats how its been since day one. And its all about us, which side will we choose, life or death.

Posted by splumer But, Mr. Fiend, please don't take this as a personal attack. I don't know you personally, and we're all urban explorers. All I ask is that you turn your critical thinking switch back on. You may find it enlightening.

Dont worry, I havent taken any you said personal. In fact I have anticipated your questions, some of them were a surprise though, I havent thought of everything.

I'm a very logical thinker. I'm heavy into science fiction, and quantum physics, and I realize there is no "evidence" (as defined by being physical proof directly associated with God, I dont think such evidence could ever exist) of God. For me, the fact that I have purpose and that I'm here and the world is here is the evidence of God. I questioned God's existence for along time because of that, but because of some reasons I stated earlier, He became real to me. The question "there has to be something more, there has to be a reason, a reason behind everything" drove me to find the truth. People can provide evidence of how we evolved from some molecules in a steamy swamp millions of years ago, but then I'm faced with the final question, why? I want to know why? Seems like people can answer "how" we got here, but they cant answer "why?", nor do they care to answer it. I want a purpose, I live to have a purpose. I will not accept an existence where everything around us is just "here" and came from nothing with no purpose and we will all die with no purpose. No thanks.

gnostic > "orthodox"

Posted by Mr_Fiend Here's the thing though, we will all die, I'm just taking the chance of believing in something that I believe will save my soul. It cant hurt to believe in that, right? I'd rather have full faith in life after death and have a chance of being wrong, than believing in no life after death and having no soul and being wrong about that. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by believing in God.

That's called Pascal's Wager. Many others have refuted it. I won't belabor it, except to say that indeed you have much to lose in believing. The least of which is your Sunday mornings.

Lol WTF? Everything works just fine on me, no complaints about what goes where or what comes out here. Any problems people have with their bodies is a result of sin, of which everyone is born into. God created the human body, the devil twisted it.

My point is that if God designed and created us, shouldn't he have done a better job? I'm not saying things "don't work," but that things could work a lot better. This is an argument more for evolution than the non-existence of a god.

Posted by splumer That's called Pascal's Wager.

I'm impressed that you know that. And I havent been to church since Easter. My Sunday mornings are usually used for UE

Posted by splumer My point is that if God designed and created us, shouldn't he have done a better job? I'm not saying things "don't work," but that things could work a lot better. This is an argument more for evolution than the non-existence of a god.

I've actually thought the same thing. I dont have an answer to that, but what I can say is that things are not the same as they were before sin.

I'll believe evolution when people start getting smarter... We have thousands of years of factual human recorded history. We are still wiping the same shit of off our same exact unevolved ass's today that we were thousands of years ago.

Posted by Mr_Fiend I'll believe evolution when people start getting smarter... We have thousands of years of factual human recorded history. We are still wiping the same shit of off our same exact unevolved ass's today that we were thousands of years ago.

Read Richard Dawkins' book The Greatest Show on Earth. It should remove any doubts you have about evolution.

Or my favorite, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, by Daniel Dennett. It's quite a mouthful to say, but incredibly thought provoking.

And you fellas get on my case for saying things like "just read the bible to find out". Ha, none the less, I wont mind cracking open a book supporting evolution to see what all the fuss is about, wouldnt be the first time.

But lets not open up that can of worms, I've debated the creationism vs evolution WAY too many times....