Interesting article from Dennis Prager today.
http://www.dennisp...t_get_their_values

Where Do Jews and Christians on the Left Get Their Values?

Many Americans find it difficult to understand why Jews on the Left -- including many who would call themselves "liberal" rather than "Left" -- continued to enthusiastically support President Obama after the revelations about the anti-Israel and anti-Jewish views of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the religious mentor and close friend of Obama. This confusion is all the greater now that Obama has humiliated the prime minister of Israel and created the most tense moment in American-Israeli relations in memory.

Likewise, many Americans wonder how Democratic congressmen who claim to be faithful Catholics and are pro-life could vote for the health care bill that allows for federal funding of abortions -- after opposing it up to the last day.

There is an explanation.

Leftism, though secular, must be understood as a religion (which is why I have begun capitalizing it). The Leftist value system's hold on its adherents is as strong as the hold Christianity, Judaism and Islam have on their adherents. Nancy Pelosi's belief in expanding the government's role in American life, and therefore her passion for the health care bill, is as strong as a pro-life Christian's belief in the sanctity of the life of the unborn.

Given the religious nature and the emotional power of Leftist values, Jews and Christians on the Left often derive their values from the Left more than from their religion.

Now, of course, most Leftist Jews and Christians will counter that Leftist values cannot trump their religion's values because Leftist values are identical to their religion's values. But this argument only reinforces my argument that Leftism has conquered the Christianity and the Judaism of Leftist Christians and Jews. If there is no difference between Leftist moral values and those of Judaism or Christianity, then Christianity is little more than Leftism with "Jesus" rhetoric added, and Judaism is Leftism with Jewish terms -- such as "Tikkun Olam" ("repairing the world") and "Prophetic values" -- added.

But if Christianity is, morally speaking, really Leftism, why didn't Catholics or Protestants assert these values prior to 19th-century European Leftism? And, if Judaism is essentially a set of Left-wing values, does that mean that the Torah and the Talmud are Leftist documents? Or are the two pillars of Judaism generally wrong?

More questions:

Why are almost no Christians and Jews who believe that God is the author of the Bible (or, in the case of Jews, the Torah) on the Left?

Why are so few pro-life Catholic and Protestant Christians on the Left? Do they not care about "the poor"?

Of course, that is what people on the Left believe. As former head of the Democratic Party Howard Dean said, "Our moral values, in contradistinction to the Republicans, is, we don't think kids ought to go to bed hungry at night."

They believe such things despite the fact that traditional Protestants and Catholics have created more institutions to take care of the sick and needy than probably any other groups in the world. And despite the fact that religious Americans give more charity and volunteer more time than secular Americans do.

And why have the great majority of Orthodox Jews rejected the Left? For Jews on the Left, the explanation is simple: Orthodox Jews have primitive beliefs and therefore primitive values.

The obvious response is that for the Leftist, all opposition to the Left, secular or religious, is primitive and usually worse (Racist, Sexist, Homophobic, Xenophobic, Ignorant, Bigoted, Intolerant, Mean-Spirited, etc.). So this doesn't tell us much. What might tell us much is this: With a handful of exceptions, Orthodox Jews know Judaism far better than non-Orthodox Jews do. Given how few of them are Leftist, this would suggest that Judaism and Leftism are indeed in conflict.

But that doesn't matter to most Jews on the Left because to be a good person (and, to those for whom it matters, to be a good Jew), one need not know Judaism, let alone follow Judaism. One needs only to feel what is right (Leftism is overwhelmingly based on feeling); and, when in doubt, one can determine what is right from The New York Times, not from sacred Jewish texts.

One of the many fundamental differences between Leftism and Judaism concerns evil. Jews and others on the Left (everywhere, not just in America) have a real problem identifying, let alone confronting, evil. Yet, for Judaism, identifying and confronting evil is as basic a Jewish value as exists. That is why, for example, there is no pacifist tradition in Judaism.

Regarding evil, the Psalmist writes -- and this is recited in synagogue every Sabbath -- "Those who love God -- hate evil." And as regards pacifism, one of the Prophets, Joel (3:10), inverts what became the much more famous quotation of Isaiah and Micah: "Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears." And later, the Talmud, almost equivalent in importance to the Bible, teaches (Berakhot 58a): "The Torah has said: If a man comes to kill you, rise early and kill him first."

In contrast, Leftists, including Leftist Jews and Christians:

-- were the loudest in condemning President Ronald Reagan when he labeled the Soviet Union an "evil empire."

-- devoted much of their lives to opposing the war in Vietnam, which they labeled immoral even though it was a war against Stalinist tyranny.

-- opposed deposing the mass murderer Saddam Hussein. Many even opposed the Gulf War.

-- believe that the moral wasteland known as the United Nations is, or must be the greatest force for good on earth, not the United States.

-- oppose allowing the American military to recruit on campuses.

And the further Left one goes, the more one demonizes free Israel and supports the dictatorships that wish to destroy Israel.

Indeed, Israel provides the clearest proof of how Leftism is stronger than the Jewishness of most Jews on the Left. Israel is threatened with a Holocaust by Iran and tens of millions of Islamic supporters outside of Iran, and Palestinian society is saturated with the most virulent Jew-hatred since the Nazis. Yet while today's Jew- and Israel-haters call the Left home, Jews on the Left continue to be proud members of the Left. Such is the power of Leftism, the most dynamic religion in the world for the last 150 years.

And that explains Bart Stupak's vote, too. In his inner conflict between Catholicism and Leftism, the more dynamic religion won.

Here, I think he's just substituting "Religion" for "Ideology". In the same way that all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares, religions are ideologies, but not all ideologies are religions. I think in this way, he's painting with too broad a brush.

I think to be a religion, an ideology needs to be in some way defined by a spiritual or supernatural set of beliefs. "leftism" is no more a religion than "capitalism." People can and do subscribe to multiple ideologies concurrently, and sometimes even to conflicting ones. It's a testament to the flexibility of the human brain how easy it is to believe two contradictory things.

I think this article gives WAY too much credit to the various ideologies it mentions for agreeing on issues. The fact is that every single Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Atheist, "Leftist," Communist, or whatever, has their own ideas of what that means. The probability is that any two people, even those who classify themselves under the same banner, passionately disagree on at least a few issues.

In reality, people on the left and the right mostly want the same things, and simply have different opinions on how to bring them about.

Taking anything Dennis Praeger says seriously is dangerous, but this is remarkably restrained. I think he's still way off-base, though.

Why are almost no Christians and Jews who believe that God is the author of the Bible (or, in the case of Jews, the Torah) on the Left? Why are so few pro-life Catholic and Protestant Christians on the Left? Do they not care about "the poor"?

Perhaps because God wasn't the author of the Bible? It says so right in the titles to the books: "The Gospel According to St. XXX" And apparently he doesn't know many Catholics. The Catholic churches in my area are very active in helping the poor. And, interestingly, they are also strongly opposed to capital punishment. Apparently they take "pro-life" all the way.

-- were the loudest in condemning President Ronald Reagan when he labeled the Soviet Union an "evil empire." -- devoted much of their lives to opposing the war in Vietnam, which they labeled immoral even though it was a war against Stalinist tyranny. -- opposed deposing the mass murderer Saddam Hussein. Many even opposed the Gulf War. -- believe that the moral wasteland known as the United Nations is, or must be the greatest force for good on earth, not the United States. -- oppose allowing the American military to recruit on campuses.

Re: Reagan, calling the USSR an evil empire made it much more difficult to negotiate arms control treaties with them. It was the same with W labelling countries as the Axis of Evil. I'm not disputing that it might have been true, but saying that publicly made it much more difficult for us to do anything but confront them militarily.

Re: Vietnam, Stalinist tyranny? He's smoking the cheap stuff, as usual.

Re: Saddam, the left realized that getting id of him would have destabilized the region, which it has. They pushed for a better solution, like an internal revolution to get rid of him, spurred by sanctions.

Re: the UN, moral wasteland? I shouldn't even dignify that with a response, but I refer to my post in the Politics forum about the dangers of exceptionalist thinking. I also strongly disagree with the assertion that the US is the greatest force for good in the world. I think the people of, well, just about any Central and South American country would disagree, plus the people of Vietnam, the Philipines, Cuba, Indonesia, Cambodia, Equatorial Guinea, and many others.

But getting back to the idea of Leftism as a religion, I think in many cases people accept the ideas of religion without solid evidence. I don't mean that as a criticism per se, but the idea of faith and belief is based mostly in the idea that it cannot be proved. The ideas of Leftism are based on feelings to an extent, but are based also on evidence. Also, being a liberal also means, by definition, being open-minded with one's ideas, and not automatically convinced of the truth of one's beliefs. There's an old joke where a conservative and a liberal are arguing. The conservative says to the liberal "You're an idiot!" to which the liberal replies "You may have a point there."

Anything has as much clout as a "religion" if it is accepted without a degree of skepticism or a desire to look at the facts (data, stats, studies, reality) behind it.

With such being said, "stop giving people prison sentences for smoking pot" is construed as a leftist value.

"Stop giving people prison sentences that cost, on average, $30,000/year for a substance that scientists conclude is less dangerous than alcohol. Doing so is criminogenic because it strips them of the right to vote and restricts future employment opportunities. Mandatory minimum sentencing has led us to become the most incarcerated generation in the most incarcerated country in the world, as the BJS reported that 7.3 million people were in the criminal justice system in 2008 at the cost of $68 billion dollars a year" are facts, not values.

^ you can always tell who tokes

Posted by jeepdave ^ you can always tell who tokes

the biggest irony... as much as an advocate as I am for legalizing marijuana, I honestly do not

I smoke tobacco like a chimney, drink like an Irishman, and have a bit of a trespassing 'problem', but the legalities of pot deter me too much.

Posted by jukebox fuckup Anything has as much clout as a "religion" if it is accepted without a degree of skepticism or a desire to look at the facts (data, stats, studies, reality) behind it. With such being said, "stop giving people prison sentences for smoking pot" is construed as a leftist value. "Stop giving people prison sentences that cost, on average, $30,000/year for a substance that scientists conclude is less dangerous than alcohol. Doing so is criminogenic because it strips them of the right to vote and restricts future employment opportunities. Mandatory minimum sentencing has led us to become the most incarcerated generation in the most incarcerated country in the world, as the BJS reported that 7.3 million people were in the criminal justice system in 2008 at the cost of $68 billion dollars a year" are facts, not values.

To part one, exactly. To the rest, just this morning I was in a lecture where the presenter said heavy pot smoking is just as destructive to lung tissue as smoking cigarettes.

I smoke tobacco like a chimney

I hereby withdraw my offer of marriage. Please, stop now. If you'd seen the pictures I've seen in the last couple days...

Posted by jukebox fuckup the biggest irony... as much as an advocate as I am for legalizing marijuana, I honestly do not I smoke tobacco like a chimney, drink like an Irishman, and have a bit of a trespassing 'problem', but the legalities of pot deter me too much.

I am of the stance don't care either way. I have actually only ingested 2 drugs in my 30 years, alcohol and nicotine. But I also think if you legalize one, legalize em all. Figure most of em will sort themselves out

Posted by splumer To part one, exactly. To the rest, just this morning I was in a lecture where the presenter said heavy pot smoking is just as destructive to lung tissue as smoking cigarettes.

Oh? For what it is worth, at least pot has medicinal benefits! Even the American Psychiatric Association supports medicinal marijuana.

Posted by splumer I hereby withdraw my offer of marriage. Please, stop now. If you'd seen the pictures I've seen in the last couple days...

d'ahhhh, I was looking forward to anonymous interwebz marriage :x

Posted by jukebox fuckup Oh? For what it is worth, at least pot has medicinal benefits! Even the American Psychiatric Association supports medicinal marijuana.

It does, but I suspect that the benefits can be had without smoking it. The lecturer also said that merely living in an urban area can cause blackening of the lungs too, though not to the extent of smoking.

From the Wiki...

A religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs

An ideology is a set of ideas that directs one's goals, expectations, and actions. An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things (compare worldview), as in common sense (see Ideology in everyday society below) and several philosophical tendencies (see Political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society (a 'received consciousness' or product of socialization). The main purpose behind an ideology is to offer change in society, and adherence to a set of ideals where conformity already exists, through a normative thought process. Ideologies are systems of abstract thought (as opposed to mere ideation) applied to public matters and thus make this concept central to politics. Implicitly every political tendency entails an ideology whether or not it is propounded as an explicit system of thought.

So once you take out the invisible friend, how much difference is there between these two concepts?

Posted by underdark From the Wiki... ... So once you take out the invisible friend, how much difference is there between these two concepts?

There really isn't any.

Can I just have some opium?

Posted by earthworm Can I just have some opium?

Only if you're using it as a sacrament.

Posted by earthworm Can I just have some opium?

As soon as y'all elect me your supreme leader and I legalize pretty much everything then sure you can....course I plan to tax it like tobacco.

What's the difference between a rave and a religion>?

http://www.youtube...atch?v=c26s1xQkCLY

Posted by earthworm What's the difference between a rave and a religion>? http://www.youtube...atch?v=c26s1xQkCLY

Cat-In-The-Hat hats, pacifiers, and glow sticks?

Oh, and possibly lots of tits out at certain ones. I like those kinds.

Posted by underdark Cat-In-The-Hat hats, pacifiers, and glow sticks? Oh, and possibly lots of tits out at certain ones. I like those kinds.

You just need to check out different religions.

http://www.youtube...atch?v=TQdIiEUFtqk

Posted by underdark Cat-In-The-Hat hats, pacifiers, and glow sticks? Oh, and possibly lots of tits out at certain ones. I like those kinds.

Then you've never been to a Church of the SubGenius devival.

Posted by splumer Then you've never been to a Church of the SubGenius devival.

Give him some slack.