Posted by splumer I think the climate change point is that it has been researched and peer-reviewed rather thoroughly, and is generally held as true by the scientific community. For scientists, the debate is indeed over; it's only in the political arena that the debate continues. One could say the same about evolution.

Gotta say something here.

The debate on whether evolution is over only in the sense that it exists, but the details will always be debated. That is the basis of the scientific method. There is still much to know and explain, and our knowledge grows all the time, along with that, new evidence often changes our understanding of the processes involved.


As far as climate change goes, the debate is only over in that we all agree that climate is changing. The causes and mechanisms involved are barely understood at all, and there is much to debate about what to do about it.


There are many aspects of environmentalism that are much like religion. Al Gore says some crazy things that the science does not support, but is popular to believe. We saw how the inter-government panel suppressed evidence that was contrary to thier conclusion to try to influence the debate. Intellectual dishonesty in it's purest form.

I'd also like to point out that the climate has always been changing, and has never been in stasis. palaeoclimatologists support this. You can easily see for yourself that there have been a number of iceages and warming periods throughout history - the dark ages and the renaissance correspond respectively.

The majority of these warming trends corresponded to solar flares and predate the carbon emissions of the industrial revolution and beyond.

Ignoring new evidence is not justifiable in any sense and buying into dogma is always unreasonable. Is pollution bad? Sure. Did we cause global warming, and if so, how much? We just don't know. Is our dependance on oil bad? Sure. What is the alternative? We don't have a good answer.

Kyoto will cost trillions, and will have very little effect. The cost does not justify the expense. Here is where a healthy debate is stifled by those that thrive on fear and insist the debate is over without asking for the details.

I have some good figures on the cost benefit of kyoto I can dig out if you want.

what bothers me about the entire climate change/global warming bandwagon is that when the data was released, these people never took into account the external forces acting on the planet... the earth and its biosphere is not a static entity; it's dynamic and constantly changing. Also, the biosphere will seek equilibrium. One idea that kind of illustrates that is that during one large volcano eruption, more material is released into the atmosphere (i have no idea how this is measured or figured)than during the past 70 years. Factor in wildfires and dust storms... and then what do you have?

you have everyday normal people trapped between two loony groups praying on your fear, fighting to get your soul.

Posted by Samurai what bothers me about the entire climate change/global warming bandwagon is that when the data was released, these people never took into account the external forces acting on the planet... the earth and its biosphere is not a static entity; it's dynamic and constantly changing. Also, the biosphere will seek equilibrium. One idea that kind of illustrates that is that during one large volcano eruption, more material is released into the atmosphere (i have no idea how this is measured or figured)than during the past 70 years. Factor in wildfires and dust storms... and then what do you have? you have everyday normal people trapped between two loony groups praying on your fear, fighting to get your soul.

Oh, I think they did take that into account, Sam. These guys aren't amateurs. And, as in any human endeavor, there are mistakes, dishonesty and hidden agendas. Yeah, some of the scientists doing the reasearch might skew their findings so that they can get more research grants, etc. But isn't it more likely that companies that stand to lose out in the climate change debate (say, BP or other oil companies) would be trying to influence the science in their favor?

That human activity CAN affect climate is demonstrable. Whether it does so on a global scale, compounding natural effects, is the subject of not only debate, but ongoing research. The problem comes when we listen to pundits, whose names I will not utter here, who insist that because of a couple of problems with one piece of the research, or one e-mail that one person sent, all of the research is invalidated. These pundits have no background in science, and really have no business in the debate. Leave science to the scientists.

I'm a former athiest who attends a fairly liberal church (non-judgemental' no stuffy "Sunday best" dress code, and very tolerant of everyone. I sit next to Cops, ex-cons, drag queens, homosexuals, and the truly mentally ill.

I attend to hear God's word, and seek guidance on how to live my live better. Today, we talked about serving other's, and how to do better in life, with guidance from the Bible.

Things i've learned.

Act like a Christian in any circumstance. Follow Jesus' (the Son of God and also God) greatest commandment: Love God completely and everybody even if they treat you wrongly whether you know them or not. Jesus said "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" Jesus says in John 15:13, "I have given you an example, that as I have done, so should you do."

Acknowledge that you have faults (sins) and then repent -- change your attitudes and pray. Realize that conversion is not simply one act but the beginning of a life-long commitment. Persistence, perseverance are continuing attitudes for engaging your opportunities. Don't be hard on yourself if and when you fail but -- admit it; pick yourself up; trust in God -- go forward

Try to see the perspectives (point of view) of others, even if you personally disagree with them. Of course, an answered prayer for peace for your enemies and that they would become blessed as children of God would help both you and them

Be patient with people who anger you; work on trying to forgive those who may have hurt you. You must learn to love your enemies. God loves everyone, and we need to, also. Say farewell to selective loving. If you have a hard time loving your enemies, pray to God for help

Treat others kindly as you would like to be treated. Even simple acts of kindness like holding a door open for someone are good deeds that can help you feel less paranoid--because then you feel that others should think well of you and of your testimony in Christ

Volunteer to help people. For example, you could take a shift at a soup kitchen near you,visit a people staying in a nursing home

Remain conservative in your ethics, moderate and modest being sure to remember that pride can be dangerous. Pride may imply that you are judging others falsely, and is said to be the mother of all sins, because pride resides in each one of us. The source of all sin is oneself and not considering others (greed, lust, hate, murder, theft, etc.).

Posted by sgbofav I'm a former athiest who attends

quitter.

I attend to hear God's word,

you're not hearing god's word... you're hearing an interpretation of something written down by a sheepherding goatfucker 2000 years ago, reinterpreted by some other pious asshole and then retranslated by some other idiot. It's just a blathering book of BS.

Things i've learned

this ought to be stellar...

Act like a Christian in any circumstance.

what does that entail? telling people they have to believe in your invisible friend of suffer an eternity in some made up place like hell?

Acknowledge that you have faults (sins) and then repent --

i'd rather have my nuts taken off with a pair of hedge clippers... this is such a crock of shit. Yeah, see things FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE... OR ELSE. Keep peddling that line.

Be patient with people who anger you;

trying, but god has nothing to do with that... 2 to 5 with good behavior is the motivator here.

work on trying to forgive those who may have hurt you.

never. revenge is a dish not only best eaten cold but even better when you have seconds and thirds.

You must learn to love your enemies.

not happening.

God loves everyone, and we need to, also.

spare me.

Remain conservative in your ethics,

time and time again, religious leaders have just given us wonderful examples of ethical behavior... can you say class action lawsuit, father touchyfeely?

sgbofav meet Sam, He will be like this. All the time. Don't let it get to you, he is actually a nice guy. Sincerly,

Jeepdave.

Posted by jeepdave sgbofav meet Sam, He will be like this. All the time. Don't let it get to you, he is actually a nice guy. Sincerly, Jeepdave.

Sam is harmless to me. I used to have hatred and resentment towards religion myself. Once I realized how many people are just like me (screwed up and imperfect, but trying to do the right thing by going to church), I knew I would fit right in.

Posted by sgbofav Sam is harmless

no.

hatred and resentment towards religion

doesn't quite cover how I feel about god or religion.

Posted by sgbofav I sit next to ... the truly mentally ill.

I'm not touching that one!

Volunteer to help people. For example, you could take a shift at a soup kitchen near you,visit a people staying in a nursing home

You don't need a god to do that. I did it this past Saturday, as a matter of fact.

The fact that religions have motivated some people to do good things says nothing about their validity. Indeed, evolutionary theory holds that charitable acts are part of our species' survival mechanism.

Posted by splumer I'm not touching that one! You don't need a god to do that. I did it this past Saturday, as a matter of fact. The fact that religions have motivated some people to do good things says nothing about their validity. Indeed, evolutionary theory holds that charitable acts are part of our species' survival mechanism.

That is how welfare was created.

Posted by sgbofav That is how welfare was created.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but...

If I may venture into the political, welfare was created from the idea that it's easier to take care of the less fortunate through the collective action of society, and that if it was a gov't program, it would be a more reliable safety net, than, say relying on a church or other organization to provide aid. Organizations like that generally are not under any obligation (except a moral one, of course) to provide aid, and can stop providing aid as circumstances dictate. That's not to say gov't can't, but a gov't is less likely to say "sorry, we couldn't find any volunteers, so no soup kitchen this week."

But yeah, helping one's neighbor in times of need is a good way to ensure survival of one's species.

Posted by sgbofav Act like a Christian in any circumstance.

Can I get some help with this one? What did jesus say speciffically, about: abortion, death penalty, euthanasia, cloning, war, racial, ethnic, & sexual discrimination, the gulf oil spill and slavery?

Jesus did say we should sell all we have and give it to the poor.

Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Should we use e-bay? How much did you make selling all your stuff?

Jesus says we should pitch people we don't like into fire.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Do you know where the everlasting fire is? I have a list of people already made up....

Posted by sgbofav Acknowledge that you have faults (sins) and then repent -- change your attitudes and pray. Realize that conversion is not simply one act but the beginning of a life-long commitment. Persistence, perseverance are continuing attitudes for engaging your opportunities. Don't be hard on yourself if and when you fail but -- admit it; pick yourself up; trust in God -- go forward

Can't find this either. Can you?

I did find where it says we should kill non-x-tians:


If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

Posted by sgbofav Try to see the perspectives (point of view) of others, even if you personally disagree with them. Of course, an answered prayer for peace for your enemies and that they would become blessed as children of God would help both you and them

What about an unanswered prayer? Is there any evidence that there are answered ones, or just coincidences? Why won't god heal amputees? Why won't god convert islamic terrorists (i'm sure lots of americans are praying)?

Posted by sgbofav Be patient with people who anger you; work on trying to forgive those who may have hurt you. You must learn to love your enemies. God loves everyone, and we need to, also. Say farewell to selective loving. If you have a hard time loving your enemies, pray to God for help

God and jesus don't do this. They destroy entire cities and cast people they don't like into fire. Why should we?

Posted by sgbofav Treat others kindly as you would like to be treated. Even simple acts of kindness like holding a door open for someone are good deeds that can help you feel less paranoid--because then you feel that others should think well of you and of your testimony in Christ

Why do you need magical thinking and imaginary friends to do nice things? Why do you need to "testify"? Should not an omnipotent being be self evident? Do you have any fact to testify about?

Posted by sgbofav Volunteer to help people. For example, you could take a shift at a soup kitchen near you,visit a people staying in a nursing home

Should we not help out the rich, and take from the poor? Is this why people vote republican?

Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Posted by sgbofav Remain conservative in your ethics,

I can't find where jesus said this, can you?

Does it mean, like Paul says in Romans that women are sexual objects for men?

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


Does it mean we should put homos to death?

Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Does it mean to support capital punishment for the following:

For Blasphemy
He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. -- Leviticus 24:16

For Breaking the Sabbath
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 31:14

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 31:15

Six days shall work bedone, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. -- Exodus 35:2

For Disobedient children
He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. -- Exodus 21:15

He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. -- Leviticus 20:9

For Stealing Slaves
He that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:16

For not being a Virgin on the night of the wedding
If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate.... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.-- Deuteronomy 22:13-22

For Witches
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. -- Exodus 22:18

For Worshipping another god
He that sacrificeth unto any god save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. -- Exodus 22:20


does it mean to have lots of good wars, like Iraq?

Exodus 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.