To all You Believers out there who condone Illegal invasions, torture and collateral damage, how do you reconcile that with the teachings of your Lord and Savior?

Please explain.

Edited to change a somewhat inflammatory title to one slightly more conducive to moderately balanced discourse.

GTFO. I've explained this a billion times in previous posts in this forum. If someone else wants to get rocks thrown at them for explaining simple Christian logic, go right ahead.


*Edit, I don't mean to be rude, it just something I'm tired of defending.

Posted by Mr_Fiend GTFO. I've explained this a billion times in previous posts in this forum. If someone else wants to get rocks thrown at them for explaining simple Christian logic, go right ahead. *Edit, I don't mean to be rude, it just something I'm tired of defending.

I'm not looking for a defense but an explanation, how do you personally reconcile what seem to be vastly disparate ideologies?

Come on help me out here, no one can explain this to me?

Posted by Livingstone Come on help me out here, no one can explain this to me?

No. They can't.

This didn't happen overnight, and I blame western culture in general.

Jesus was Jesus so I don't have to be.

Posted by jeepdave Jesus was Jesus so I don't have to be.

Oh, carte blanche christianity. That's so liberating, sounds fun almost.

Is that what it's all about for you?

I'd say that to be a Christian, one needs to do two things: 1. be born again (metaphorically speaking); 2. Accept Jesus as your savior, the son of God, etc. A lot of church doctrines (which are widely different, depending on which ones you talk to) say little about actually following Jesus's teachings or philosophy.

Also, I think the mainstream belief is that if one is a generally good person and is repentant for one's sins, one can go to Heaven. When Bush was governor of Texas, he was asked how he reconciled his faith with the fact that Texas put so many criminals to death. He cited the "eye for an eye" passage in the Bible, and the now-popular belief that the commandment "Thous shalt not kill" should actually be interpreted as "Thous shalt not murder."

Sermon on the Mount notwithstanding.

The Catholic church, on the other hand, has spoken out quite strongly against torture, the death penalty, and other social issues. So have other denominations, like the Quakers.

But yeah, it does seem pretty hypocritical, especially given what Jesus specifically said in the Sermon.

Posted by jeepdave I do believe in personal responsibility. 100%. What makes you think I do not? Please explain? Because I will handle issues myself? That I don't call on someone to deal with shit most people don't like to deal with? Please tell me what makes me not responsible.

Well, the large majority of your posts are antithetical to the teachings of Jesus and you say you're not trolling, so I'm to believe your words reflect your behavior.

I'm not concerned with the morality of your beliefs nor even changing them. What I don't understand is why you would put the responsibility of your "salvation" on your Gods back and not at least attempt to emulate his example or follow what he taught. That's why I'm implying lack of responsibility/ accountability. This really seems to be a carte blanche attitude about being a "believer"

Doesn't being christian involve some kind of divine reckoning? Is the "fuck 'em attitude aligned with what you profess to believe?
I mean why bother with religion if that's the case? I don't really care what you believe, you surely aren't the only one to think this way, but I can't see it as anything other than hypocrisy.

Can you explain the incongruency?

I think you are confusing something here. I do not have an issue helping anyone that I feel I should help. No problem at all. BUT, I will not be forced to help anyone I don't wish too (even tho through government I already am, dammit)



I may or may not surprise you to know I volunteer with Meals on Wheels and other organizations. But I don't have to care about people I cannot do anything about. So I don't. And if I sin to make my family safer, better off, or otherwise happy, I will ask for forgiveness. I don't know what the problem is. You always wish us to separate church and state. Thats fine. Just don't be surprised when I take care of things myself with out asking others to interfere.

The theft reference I was speaking of did not involve anyone being harmed or killed. I simply took care of the situation myself and got back my product. But mark my words, even tho it was only a couple hundred dollars worth of stuff, I would have no problem removing someone from this world over something like that. And my understanding of the Bible, would not put me at odds with my savior about that either. Turn the other cheek, but eventually you will have to turn all the away around.

Posted by jeepdave I think you are confusing something here. I do not have an issue helping anyone that I feel I should help. No problem at all. BUT, I will not be forced to help anyone I don't wish too (even tho through government I already am, dammit) I may or may not surprise you to know I volunteer with Meals on Wheels and other organizations. But I don't have to care about people I cannot do anything about. So I don't. And if I sin to make my family safer, better off, or otherwise happy, I will ask for forgiveness. I don't know what the problem is. You always wish us to separate church and state. Thats fine. Just don't be surprised when I take care of things myself with out asking others to interfere. The theft reference I was speaking of did not involve anyone being harmed or killed. I simply took care of the situation myself and got back my product. But mark my words, even tho it was only a couple hundred dollars worth of stuff, I would have no problem removing someone from this world over something like that. And my understanding of the Bible, would not put me at odds with my savior about that either. Turn the other cheek, but eventually you will have to turn all the away around.

I don't think I confused anything though I AM still confused about my original question around reconciling the obvious differences in ideologies, Jesus' and the christian rights', a viewpoint you seem to share.

I never expressed a wish for a secular state, though in a melting pot such as ours it makes good sense.

I don't have any problem with you taking care of your issues.

I'm concerned that your understanding of the bible may be similar to a jihadis take on the Koran.

You mean like linda blair did? Are you possessed, is that it?

Finally, allow me to make a suggestion: dump christianity, go over to the dark side, I have a sense you'll feel more at home there, your statements won't be hypocritical and the evil one may concede the Meals on Wheels thing.
Problem solved.


edit
To be clear, a lot of this is in jest. I do believe there is a buttload of hypocrisy going on around this issue but maybe asking for clarity is too much, perhaps it can't be done. If I were to understand it I might have to join the club.
That said I'm still open to trying.

Well, I'm not gonna preach to ya, well witness is a better choice of words because I am sure you have been all your life. Religion is very personal, and it can be very hard to explain. Its hard to explain because its a feeling. Its a understanding of life. I don't go to church anymore. I don't like organized religion, but I do understand how it helps the masses, its just not my thing. I get enjoyment and peace from my belief in the Lord. I was in church till my late teens, left church and rejected Christ for a while, and I got to talking to an old black man at a truck stop in Virginia. He told me to quit trying to bend myself to what the church wants, and read my bible, talk to the Lord on a personal level, and see what he wants. I prayed, and got my answer. And I now am very devout to Christ. He brought me back from the brink. And even if you don't believe he exist, even if you think religion is all spaghetti monsters and lies to bleed money from the elderly, it helped keep me alive. And for that reason, I believe.

Posted by jeepdave Well, I'm not gonna preach to ya, well witness is a better choice of words because I am sure you have been all your life. Religion is very personal, and it can be very hard to explain. Its hard to explain because its a feeling. Its a understanding of life. I don't go to church anymore. I don't like organized religion, but I do understand how it helps the masses, its just not my thing. I get enjoyment and peace from my belief in the Lord. I was in church till my late teens, left church and rejected Christ for a while, and I got to talking to an old black man at a truck stop in Virginia. He told me to quit trying to bend myself to what the church wants, and read my bible, talk to the Lord on a personal level, and see what he wants. I prayed, and got my answer. And I now am very devout to Christ. He brought me back from the brink. And even if you don't believe he exist, even if you think religion is all spaghetti monsters and lies to bleed money from the elderly, it helped keep me alive. And for that reason, I believe.

I can respect that. What I don't understand is why you, and others with similar views and devout feelings about their christian religion also hold beliefs that are markedly antithetical to what Jesus himself supposedly said.

Reading the Sermon on the Mount for example, I imagine that if people believe what is being said there they wouldn't condone illegal invasions, preemptive war, torture, hatred of immigrants(illegal or not), the monied interests in politics/corporatacracy or a general fuck 'em attitude towards those whose value system or monetary station in life may not be on par w/ the "believer"
One really has to twist the meaning of that sermon to come up with something as drastically different as the christian rights' voting record.

Do you see why this is confusing?

I see what you are saying, but this is a different day and age. And I believe that God, my family, and my country come first. I do what I can do, but we are not nomads wondering the desert anymore. We have established rules. We have established boundaries. And they MUST be respected. You talk of a foreign invasion, look to our southern boarder. God says to respect the law of the land, unless it is unjust. America, contrary to populist belief, is not a unjust land. We give more opportunities to more people across the globe than any other country ever has or will. That is just the way it is. If we gotta do some bad shit to maintain, so be it. We are still far ahead of the rest of the world. In just over a couple hundred years....................

Posted by jeepdave I see what you are saying, but this is a different day and age. And I believe that God, my family, and my country come first. I do what I can do, but we are not nomads wondering the desert anymore. We have established rules. We have established boundaries. And they MUST be respected. You talk of a foreign invasion, look to our southern boarder. God says to respect the law of the land, unless it is unjust. America, contrary to populist belief, is not a unjust land. We give more opportunities to more people across the globe than any other country ever has or will. That is just the way it is. If we gotta do some bad shit to maintain, so be it. We are still far ahead of the rest of the world. In just over a couple hundred years....................

I don't follow your point about not living in a desert causing Jesus' words to be obsolete. They seem applicable to any age.

"God says to respect the law of the land, unless it is unjust" How do you decide which of gods laws to pay attention too?

Diverging momentarily to politics around immigration...
Corporate greed spawned nafta, nafta created a huge surge in immigrants headed north. Take it to the source man. Illegal immigration is a symptom of a fucked economic policy on our part. Tons of stuff on this, take your pick:

http://www.google....p=e5790a4486b7f45f

Clinton signed the shit, sure it was in the works for some time before him but hell you can hate the dems for it, at least your finger would be pointing closer to the culprits.

Posted by Livingstone I can respect that. What I don't understand is why you, and others with similar views and devout feelings about their christian religion also hold beliefs that are markedly antithetical to what Jesus himself supposedly said.

It's a fairly common psychological defense mechanism to ignore or justify things which seem inconsistent to an outside observer. For example, we;ve all "borrowed" stuff from work, yet we justify it by saying things like "I worked late that one time and didn't get paid for it. They owe me." or something to that effect. We're all guilty of it, in one way or another.

I think a lot of people say that certain passages in the Bible aren't applicable to modern life; after all, Jesus never said "Blessed is he who lets other in on ye interstate." But a lot of what he said really isn't very open to interpretation:

Matt 5:9; " Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." I think that's pretty clear. Where it might be open to interpretation, though, is in what constitutes a peacemaker. I'll keep it out of politics by using the example of the US entering WWI. By entering a war which had no clear aggressor, the US could hardly be considered a peacemaker, but, in the broader sense, bringing the war to a faster end by taking up arms could be considered peacemaking.

Did I ever mention that even as an atheist, I consider the Sermon on the Mount to be beautiful and poetic?

I think a lot of people say that certain passages in the Bible aren't applicable to modern life; after all, Jesus never said "Blessed is he who lets other in on ye interstate." But a lot of what he said really isn't very open to interpretation:

Wouldn't that fall under the "do unto others" clause?

I agree about the variance in what determines a peacemaker in examples such as the one you posted.

Invisible friend or no, the SotM is a poetic and relatively practical manual for generally just being a decent person imo.

Re: The Christian right, hypocritical?

Absolutely. Generally speaking, yes. Totally.

You assume that reason plays any part in the fundies day to day affairs.

Torturing and killing fits right in with their view of the world however.

The god of abraham teaches by example, like having his own son tortured and killed to teach people a lesson....(imagine a cross being used to kill! Homer J. Simpson)

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Jesus' dad can kill you and torture you in hell, so be afraid!

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

If you show no mercy, god will show no mercy to you. After all, two wrongs make a right!

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Seems pretty straight forward...

The entire bible is filled with contradictions. It is almost as though they have created a belief system wherein you can justify anything, including using contrary evidence to support your original belief. Further, those same beliefs are unfalsifiable and therefore immune to reason itself. Awesome.

With one major problem...

It is very hard to believe that the god of abraham would make himself known to farmers and blacksmiths in the first century yet for some reason won't reveal himself to any scientists today when that's all it would take to clear this whole argument up.

Perhaps we should find a better source for morality than a deeply flawed translation of early superstition about a god who fails to understand that even slavery is wrong.