Today: Genesis 19:30-36

30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”

33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab[g]; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi[h]; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.

I love the family values stuff in the bible. Here's my top 5:

1. Here is a good sunday school story about incest and slavery from Genesis:

29:21 And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.
29:22 And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast.
29:23 And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her.
29:24 And Laban gave unto his daughter Leah Zilpah his maid for an handmaid.
29:25 And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it was Leah: and he said to Laban, What is this thou hast done unto me? did not I serve with thee for Rachel? wherefore then hast thou beguiled me?
29:28 And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
29:30 And he went in also unto Rachel , and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.


2. This one helped to mess up Catholics and kill millions in africa:

Genesis:
38:7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
38:9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

(and I thought god just killed kittens when I spilled on the ground!)


3. Fortunately, if you spill, you can clean it up with water. Pay attention to this list of what is unclean:

Leviticus
15:16 And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even.
15:17 And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even.
15:18 The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.


15:19 And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
15:20 And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean.
15:21 And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
15:22 And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
15:23 And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even.
15:24 And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean.

4. If you have a wet dream when you are camping:

Deuteronomy
23:10 If there be among you any man, that is not clean by reason of uncleanness that chanceth him by night, then shall he go abroad out of the camp, he shall not come within the camp:
23:11 But it shall be, when evening cometh on, he shall wash himself with water: and when the sun is down, he shall come into the camp again.

5. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ezekiel
23:17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.
23:18 So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.
23:19 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
23:20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.


- - and the bonus round from Revelation, by far the best book in the bible:

Revelation
17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.


I don't remember this one from sunday school, but I'm sure we covered it because I am still afraid whenever I chanceth upon harlots on beasts with seven heads and ten horns!

Well, I'm off to multiply my whoredom and maybe smite some sinners.

Posted by tekriter 15:19 And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

At first I thought this was a reference to female ejaculation. Shows you where my mind is.

In reference to Fedge's post, though, I'm sure that's a parable or a metaphor or something, I just can't figure out what for. Don't let your daughters get you drunk, maybe? But still, it's a classic!

One could argue, though, that they were doing it with good intentions: to preserve their family line. But if someone made a porno of that, they'd probably go to jail. Hey, are there any good Biblical pornos, or is that a line even pornographer won't cross?

My thoughts are very random today. Sorry.

don't know what you need porno for. The bible has stuff in it that would never make huslter's letters section.

Snuff porn, incest, gang bangs with babylonians, and everyone is circumcised, sometimes twice!

Inspiring.

From my favorite blog:

The masochistic relationship of religious people with god
I described yesterday how I use the Noah's flood story to get Biblical literalists to confront the fact that the story, like many other stories in the Bible, describes god as a monstrous genocidal maniac. In this post, I will describe some of the ways they respond.

Last year, I wrote about a discussion with a religious woman who stopped me on the sidewalk outside my office to hand me some Jesus literature. At some point she started talking about Hitler, as such people invariably do. I reproduce part of the Q and A I had with the Jesus woman.



Q: Do you believe that Noah's flood actually occurred? A: Yes.

Q: In that flood, god deliberately murdered all but the eight people in Noah's family, including tiny infants. Wasn't that worse than anything Hitler had done? Didn't that make god the worst genocidal maniac in history? A: No.

Q: Why not? A: Because all those people died because of their sins.

Q: What about the infants? Doesn't it bother you that god murdered vast numbers of tiny newborn infants by drowning them? What had they done to deserve that awful fate?

At this point, she started making stuff up, the way that religious people do when they have no answer. They think they can get away with this because they assume that the person they are talking to does not know the Bible. The doctrine of original sin that says that even newborn babies are also sinners has always been a tough sell, even for the most ardent believers, and she did not even try to pull that one on me. She instead said that god had immediately gathered up in his arms all the babies who had died in the flood. It is a nice cozy image but irrelevant. A murderer who cuddles his victim immediately afterward is still a murderer, and even creepy to boot. It is also totally fictitious. I told her that the Bible said no such thing. As far as the Bible was concerned, in drowning babies god was carrying out his plan exactly as envisaged and I challenged her to show me where in the Bible it said that god had scooped up the drowned babies.

She was stumped and asked me to wait and went off to get reinforcements from the rest of her group and came back with a middle-aged guy and a younger man. But not only could they not back up her assertion of god's act by providing me with biblical verses (which I knew they couldn't) they had no better responses to the questions I posed to them.

Q: Is murdering a baby an evil act? A: Yes.

Q: Is drowning huge numbers of babies evil? A: Yes.

Q: Wouldn't a huge number of babies have drowned in the flood? A: Yes.

Q: So aren't you worshipping an evil, infant-murdering god? A: No, because if god does something, it cannot be evil.


At that point, I could not help laughing at the absurdity of the logic. When I asked the same question (in a private email correspondence) of someone named Henry (who also believes that Noah's flood actually happened and is not perturbed by that act), he too gave an incredible reply: "You have to take into account that God is the creator and he has the right to destroy His creation for reasons He chooses."

In other words, we are merely possessions of god that he can torture or murder at will because he created us and thus owns us. This extraordinary position was also taken by some unidentified religious person to Christopher Hitchens (starting at the 6:55 mark). In other words, the same people who insist that each of us are precious in god's sight, that he knows each hair on our head, and that he cares about our personal welfare can, when cornered, turn on a dime and say that he has the perfect right to treat us as if we are disposable commodities, to be tortured and murdered at his whim, just because he created us.

I also had a very similar exchange with a commenter to an earlier post where he tried to justify god's command to stone to death rebellious children by arguing two points: that someone who rebels against his parents is also rebelling against god and is thus on the road to evil and will end up committing murder and rape, and so being stoned to death was a good thing, a form of pre-emptive crime fighting. This is of course a patently ridiculous argument and not to be taken seriously. But the other argument was the same as Henry's, that since god owns us, he can do what he wants with us. The ironic thing was that this exchange was in response to my post about how religion can make good people do bad things, sort of proving my point. Only a truly religious believer could justify stoning to death of children.

It does seem to be unavoidably the case that if you believe in god and take these allegedly holy books as revelations of his divine will and instructions for how you should behave, you are ultimately forced into a masochistic relationship with your god, where you accept any and all atrocities committed by god, even against you and your loved ones, because he is your master.

The only way out of this is to pick and choose what parts of the holy book you consider the 'good bits' and want to follow and create a tortuous re-interpretation of the plain text of the words of the 'bad bits' that it makes a mockery of the holy book being divinely inspired, because what you are doing is imposing an externally derived ethical sensibility that has no religious basis onto your supposedly divinely inspired book. If you are willing to do that, why use the book as a moral basis at all?

There is something disturbingly pathological about the relationship of Biblical literalists to their imaginary god. Having someone demand that you love and worship him even while he abuses you is bad enough. To comply with such a demand when you can simply walk away seems to me to be a telling indicator of a masochistic personality.

http://blog.case.edu/singham/

There are several clear cases of incest in the Old Testament. Lot, Abraham’s nephew, begat two sons by his own daughters while in a drunken stupor (Genesis 19:30-35). Moses recorded the sordid act as a matter of history, but there is no sanction of the sin in the sacred text. In fact it is placed in a decidedly negative light. Ruben was intimate with Bilhah, his father’s concubine (Genesis 35:22) — a shameful act that was condemned and penalized (Genesis 49:4). Amnon, one of David’s sons, committed incest/rape against his half-sister, Tamar (2 Samuel 13:7-14), and, as a consequence, was murdered later by the order of Absalom, Tamar’s full brother (2 Samuel 13).

The Levitical Code
The most comprehensive segment of the Old Testament dealing with this offense is in Leviticus 18:6-18. Sexual cohabitation was not permitted between a man and his mother, his sister, a granddaughter, an aunt, etc. The most serious punishment was execution (Leviticus 20:11-17), and in the New Testament era, disfellowship from the local church was enjoined for the offence (1 Corinthians 5:1-5).

In evaluating some of the cases mentioned above (e.g., Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) several factors must be borne in mind, which reveal that those situations were not parallel with some of the egregious examples that came later (e.g., Reuben, Amnon).

(1) The regulations of the Law of Moses were binding only upon those to whom it was given at the time, and subsequently upon all who lived under that law until its abolition (at the death of Christ — Romans 7:1ff; Ephesians 2:11ff; Colossians 2:13-17). Even in our legal system there is recognition of the ex post facto principle, namely that one is not amenable to the consequences of a law passed after the commission of a certain act. The people of the Patriarchal Period, therefore, were not under the specific regulations of the Mosaic Code. They were obligated to universal moral principles, but not to the intricate details of some of the Mosaic regulations which came later. Note this comment from Professor Walter Kaiser.

“Prior to Moses’ time, incest in many of the forms later proscribed, were not thought to be wrong. Thus, even Moses’ own father, Amram, married an aunt, his father’s sister, Jochebed (Exodus 6:20)” (Kaiser, et al., p. 101).

(2) God has never approved of indiscriminate sexual activity outside of the marriage relationship in any age of human history. As one writer has noted,

“the fundamental problem with incest [and other extra-marital sexual sins] is that it strikes at the soundness of the family. And since the family is central to God’s purposes and work on earth, his judgment on this practice is fierce” (Coppenger, p. 1030).

The Patriarchal Circumstance
In the early stages of human history, “marriage” among kinsmen was not deemed immoral. The fact is, such was a necessity from the nature of the situation. The children of Adam and Eve must have married kinsmen, for there were no other people on earth except those descended from the original pair.

(1) As noted already at the beginning of this article, in the Patriarchal period there were familial marriages that do not appear to have been censured by Jehovah, but which were prohibited in a later epoch of law.

(2) There is another factor that must be considered. In the early days of the human family, before sin, disease, and genetics took such a deadly accumulative toll, Adam’s offspring were much more physically vigorous than they now are. And so inter-family unions would not have resulted in the debilitating effects that are characteristic of such relationships in the modern world. Adam himself lived to be 930 years of age, yet by the time of Abraham, 175 was a “good old age” (Genesis 25:7-8); eventually human longevity would level out at approximately 80 years on average (Psalm 90:10). “Time,” in a sinful world, has extracted a high cost.

http://www.christi...e-matter-of-incest

Posted by sgbofav Adam himself lived to be 930 years of age, yet by the time of Abraham, 175 was a “good old age” (Genesis 25:7-8); eventually human longevity would level out at approximately 80 years on average (Psalm 90:10). “Time,” in a sinful world, has extracted a high cost.

Who could argue against this logic?

The OT God is fickle.

Exodus 33:18-23

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

21 Then the LORD said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”


That passage always made me picture God walking by Moses while wearing a hospital gown lol

Posted by MutantMandias Who could argue against this logic?

Anyone with one of these:

this discussion just confirms the irrefutable evidence that:

THERE IS NO GOD

and

PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN WHATEVER FLAVOR OF INVISIBLE FRIEND THEY HAVE CHOSEN ARE LOONEY TUNES.

end of story.
about all the bible is good for is a thrown weapon, door stop, or something to prop a table up on if it's on the crab.

Posted by Samurai this discussion just confirms the irrefutable evidence that: THERE IS NO GOD and PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN WHATEVER FLAVOR OF INVISIBLE FRIEND THEY HAVE CHOSEN ARE LOONEY TUNES. end of story. about all the bible is good for is a thrown weapon, door stop, or something to prop a table up on if it's on the crab.

You forgot about the acts of service that the Bible implores its followers to do. Stuff like donating to charity, feeding and clothing the homeless, caring for those who can't care for themselves (children, the sick, and the disabled.

How many athiest actually "walk the walk "and do acts fo service. While you are trashing God, his followers are doing far more good deeds than you ever would.

Posted by sgbofav You forgot about the acts of service that the Bible implores its followers to do. Stuff like donating to charity, feeding and clothing the homeless, caring for those who can't care for themselves (children, the sick, and the disabled. How many athiest actually "walk the walk "and do acts fo service. While you are trashing God, his followers are doing far more good deeds than you ever would.

oh listen here... lets get off the high horse shall we?

about 99.9995% of the so-called christians i know are lying, cheating, hypocritical assholes that wouldn't piss on someone if they were on fire, let alone help them.

Posted by Samurai oh listen here... lets get off the high horse shall we? about 99.9995% of the so-called christians i know are lying, cheating, hypocritical assholes that wouldn't piss on someone if they were on fire, let alone help them.

Am I part of the .0005% that you like Sam?

Posted by sgbofav You forgot about the acts of service that the Bible implores its followers to do. Stuff like donating to charity, feeding and clothing the homeless, caring for those who can't care for themselves (children, the sick, and the disabled.

Can you provide a reference for this?


The bible also implores its followers to:

Stone rapists and the victims if they don't cry out.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.


To eat people:
Zechariah 11:9
I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another."

Kill the homos:
Lev.20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Buy and keep slaves:
Leviticus 25:44-46
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever.

Get fat to be a good x-tian:
Psalms
92:12 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon.
92:13 Those that be planted in the house of the LORD shall flourish in the courts of our God.
92:14 They shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be fat and flourishing;

Kill non-christians:

Dt.13:6-10

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.

Kill folks that work on sunday:

Exodus 31:13-15
Six days my work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Curse artists:

Deuteronomy 27:15
Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman.

Burn pregnant whores:
Genesis 38:24
Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.

Shut women up:

1 Corinthians 14:34-36
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


Genocide is OK:
1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Keep cripples out of your churches:

Lev.21:17-23
Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. ... Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries.

Beat you kids:

Proverbs 22:15
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.





Now I'm sire the bible tells us to do something nice somewhere, but I'm not so sure that it is the best moral guide for anyone.

Posted by sgbofav The Patriarchal Circumstance In the early stages of human history, “marriage” among kinsmen was not deemed immoral. The fact is, such was a necessity from the nature of the situation. The children of Adam and Eve must have married kinsmen, for there were no other people on earth except those descended from the original pair. (1) As noted already at the beginning of this article, in the Patriarchal period there were familial marriages that do not appear to have been censured by Jehovah, but which were prohibited in a later epoch of law.

Dude, you are so in for it. I hope you have thick skin! This forum is not very forgiving to believers. I'm the nice one.

One could also argue, that Eve, being created from Adam's rib, was, in effect, his daughter, so Adam banged his daughter, more or less.

The issue, is, though, that it's odd to hold up the Bible as this model of moral behavior when so much of the behavior therein is clearly immoral. Yes, a lot of it is in the OT, which most Chrstians conveniently ignore, but how do we decide which parts to abide by, and which parts not to? If Genesis 1:1 is true, then why isn't Lev.21:17-23?

Adam himself lived to be 930 years of age,

And they think the baby boomers will bankrupt Social Security!

But seriously, what evidence is there that people at that time live that long? Genesis is not valid evidence. That's like me saying I'm 20 feet tall is true because I said so.

Posted by splumer The issue, is, though, that it's odd to hold up the Bible as this model of moral behavior

when it is just a book, complied and edited for reasons of political expediency.

Posted by MutantMandias when it is just a book, complied and edited for reasons of political expediency.

i think it was originally more of a social expediency that morphed into political.
but yeah, i get you.

Posted by splumer Dude, you are so in for it. I hope you have thick skin! This forum is not very forgiving to believers. I'm the nice one.

I enjoy a good debate. What you will notice with me, is that I will never make it personal, or resort to personal attacks (like some of the other posters here)

One could also argue, that Eve, being created from Adam's rib, was, in effect, his daughter, so Adam banged his daughter, more or less.

One could argue that this is possible with evolution also. How could ooze turn into a human male, and a human female. Primordial ooze had to commit incest to create more cells right?

Posted by sgbofav One could argue that this is possible with evolution also. How could ooze turn into a human male, and a human female. Primordial ooze had to commit incest to create more cells right?

Just like masturbating is incest.