From PZ Myers' blog:

http://freethought...verse-can-stop-us/

I titled my critique of Massimo Pigliucci’s complaint about the New Atheists with a Firefly quote — “We’re meddlesome” — so I might as well keep it up. There’s much in that series to illuminate my personal view of atheism, specifically, the elements that seem to antagonize people like Pigliucci and Stedman and Mooney and great swarms of other more accommodating people. First, I ought to point out the obvious: contrary to the defenders of tone, I don’t mind pissing people off.

Mal: Gotta say, Doctor, your talent for alienatin’ folks is near miraculous.
Simon: Yes, I’m very proud.We often get this insistence from the accommodationists that the only way to win people over is to be nice to them — atheists should try to be good citizens who get along with everyone. A related point they will make is that atheists don’t have a real problem with discrimination, because they look just like everyone else and can blend in, and if we aren’t rocking the boat no one will have any grounds to oppose us.

I really, really despise that argument. I don’t want my community to accept my presence because they have me confused with an Episcopalian, or because I’m one of those good atheists who don’t raise no ruckus, no sir, and so they can tolerate me because I’m invisible. I intend to be loud; I will leave no doubt that I disbelieve and am disagreeable about it. I am not the one who needs to learn a lesson in tolerance, the smug, oblivious Christians are, and the only way I can give it is if I’m standing up and challenging them.

So when people, atheists and theists alike, complain that I’m obnoxious, I feel good about it. There’s the fact that most of the people doing the complaining are not the sort I have much respect for, so I take pleasure in pissing them off, but also that I’m fulfilling my responsibilities. I make people aware that where I stand, there stands an atheist, and not some simpering milquetoast making apologies for his temerity in disrespecting religion, but someone who is proud of his beliefs.

Badger: You think you’re better than other people!
Mal: Just the ones I’m better than.
Pigliucci complained about the arrogance of some atheists who think all believers are dumb, which is a common complaint, and one you hear from believers as well. But they’re wrong: I don’t think I’m smarter than everyone else.

I just think I’m right.

That’s important. Atheists should have a feeling of unrepentant confidence — we are on the right side of reason, the right side of history, and the right side of the evidence. It’s not because I think I have some intrinsically greater worth than others at all, but I have shed some delusions and freed myself of traditional dogma, and have also worked most of my life to alleviate my ignorance. Other people could benefit from similar enlightenment.

And anyone who’s bothered by my cockiness should have a little more self-awareness: we all think we’re right, or we wouldn’t be doing what we do.

Jayne: Shiny. Let’s be bad guys.
Yeah, the faitheists and believers think I’m a bad guy, for the reasons above (and I’m OK with that). My other sin, though, is that I encourage other atheists to join me, I reinforce my kind of rudeness in a large group of people, and I do that community building stuff. I foster my tribe. We grow stronger and louder and bolder, we are all bad guys together.

Of course, the kind of bad guys we are are the ones encouraged by Carl Sagan: the critics of mysticism and foolishness who do not sit silent when a god-botherer says something stupid. We misbehave because it’s about damn time someone did.

“…if we offer too much silent assent about mysticism and superstition ‐ even when it seems to be doing a little good ‐ we abet a general climate in which skepticism is considered impolite, science tiresome, and rigorous thinking somehow stuffy and inappropriate. Figuring out a prudent balance takes wisdom.”

Carl Sagan
That’s us. No silence. We fight the idea that skepticism might be impolite by being impolite all the time, making the questioning of dogma commonplace and frequent. After all, why should it be considered so awful for a horde of atheists to point out that Christianity or Islam or Judaism or Hinduism are ridiculous? The are ridiculous and are going to get ridiculed.

Here’s something else I think atheists should be:

The Operative: Do you know what your sin is, Mal?
Mal: Aw, hell, I’m a fan of all seven. But right now, I’m gonna have to go with wrath.
I see priests raping children. I see a publicity-seeking nun praising pain and suffering, poverty and sickness. I see politicians pandering for votes by demanding the persecution of gays in the name of Jesus. I see godly men declaring that the role of women is to be silent and subservient…and brood a quiverful of children. I see fanatics strapping explosives to their bodies and killing randomly in the name of their god. I see lobbyists hard at work, trying to dilute science education, and suggesting that we teach the Flintstones as fact in our biology classes. I see a pope in fancy silks and gold-bedecked palace urging people to shun materialism and savor the simple life. I see deluded people opposing work to alleviate climate change because they’re sure God wouldn’t let it happen. I see ordinary people certain that these are the End Times, rejoicing in our imagined imminent apocalypse, and actively working to bring it about.

If you aren’t angry, there’s something wrong with you.

Religion is not some mild happy recreational activity; it is a poison of the brain that taints the vast majority of humanity. It is bad shit. I will not support it in any way, and I resent the complacent schmoes who urge us to close our eyes to it. One the one hand, we’ve got the moderate academic types who like to tell us it’s mostly harmless and we’ll never be able to get rid of it, anyway; to them I’d say that, as people who are supposedly dedicated to learning the truth, you ought to be the first to deny religion because a) it’s wrong, and b) it’s a fallacious way of learning about the world. On the other hand, we’ve got the happy progressives who want us all to do interfaith work, and tell us that the fundies might be bad, but we share common cause with liberal Christians; to them I say that a mind addled by liberal opium is just as faulty as one fired up on conservative crack.

I know that we can never get rid of religion, because there will always be people willing to lie for gain, and there will always be gullible people willing to believe them. But that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t hate the lie of faith consistently and without apology. There are principles an atheist should stand for, and one should be that god-belief is bullshit.

No compromises on that. Wrath will be my response to those suggesting otherwise.

Zoe: Where are we going, sir?
Mal: The same as always. Forward.No sitting still. Keep going, keep pushing, keep agitating. We may have to change course now and then, but the engines should always be running, we should always be plowing on ahead.

"I just think I’m right."

I wonder about anyone who is absolutely convinced that they are right about things like this. It's not terribly different from a child insisting that they are right about santa existing. I'm much more likely to consider someones opinion if they are aware enough to admit that they have no idea, but will make an educated guess. This shows me more logic and rational thought than, "I'm right, you're wrong".

This is all just pure opinion so ranting about it further is probably useless, but I don't agree that it's a good thing for an atheist to be obnoxiously loud about it. I don't think anyone should be obnoxious about any religious/non religious beliefs. Except for sam because he's incredibly entertaining


I would also like to point out that the article screams that it was written by an incredibly angsty 16 year old... but that is also just opinion. Allow me to illustrate:

"I am not the one who needs to learn a lesson in tolerance, the smug, oblivious Christians are..."

"If you aren’t angry, there’s something wrong with you."

"...it is a poison of the brain that taints the vast majority of humanity. It is bad shit."

Quoting Carl Sagan, but then completely missing the point of, "Figuring out a prudent balance takes wisdom.”

"There are principles an atheist should stand for, and one should be that god-belief is bullshit"

I also think the Firefly quotes do absolutely nothing to "illuminate" his "points".

Demand fair treatment and tolerance for all, sure. That is a good thing. I recognize that it often takes a group of obnoxious assholes to make that happen, but I highly doubt this guy intends on doing that. At least through the article, he comes across as being more likely to be an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.

Actually he's a professor of biology at U of Minn., Morris, the author of several books and a popular speaker.

It's funny you bring up the Santa point because that's often an argument used by atheists against believers; they say that believing in gods is akin to believing in Santa in that all the evidence argues against his existence, and arguments made in favor are usually arguments from ignorance.

I don't fully agree with him. I believe that you do indeed catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, but I think at least part of his ire comes from the fact that atheists - and him in particular - are often vilified in the media and are the least-trusted minority in the US. You pretty much can say anything you want about atheists, and most people will agree with you, whether what you say is true or not. So, he's got good reason to be pissed off, and good reason not to go quietly into that good night.

Yeah, but the fact is, his righteous indignation does indeed come off more as petulance.

Something I've noticed is that a fairly significant number of atheists are big sci-fi fans... might that have something to do with people wanting to hear stories? Strangely enough, a lot of sci-fi more or less follows the Christ myth.

Not so strange. Fiction is fiction.

Posted by earthworm Something I've noticed is that a fairly significant number of atheists are big sci-fi fans... might that have something to do with people wanting to hear stories? Strangely enough, a lot of sci-fi more or less follows the Christ myth.

I started reading sci-fi after discovering Douglas Adams:

"I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!) It has had such an incalculably huge effect on human affairs. What is it? What does it represent? Why have we invented it? How does it keep going? What will become of it? I love to keep poking and prodding at it. I've thought about it so much over the years that that fascination is bound to spill over into my writing."


The thing about sci-fi is that the good stuff is the stuff of myths - they have staying power. Like the Bradbury story A Sound of Thunder. The difference is that they are not masquerading as truth like that other great sci-fi work: The Book of Mormon, or the Un-sci-fi rags of the abrahamic cults.

Douglas Adams was one of the writers responsible for my conversion.

Posted by tekriter I started reading sci-fi after discovering Douglas Adams: "I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!) It has had such an incalculably huge effect on human affairs. What is it? What does it represent? Why have we invented it? How does it keep going? What will become of it? I love to keep poking and prodding at it. I've thought about it so much over the years that that fascination is bound to spill over into my writing." The thing about sci-fi is that the good stuff is the stuff of myths - they have staying power. Like the Bradbury story A Sound of Thunder. The difference is that they are not masquerading as truth like that other great sci-fi work: The Book of Mormon, or the Un-sci-fi rags of the abrahamic cults.

I dont know man. People get just as obsessed over star wars minutia as others do over religious texts.

Posted by earthworm I dont know man. People get just as obsessed over star wars minutia as others do over religious texts.

And those people are idiots, too.

Posted by earthworm I dont know man. People get just as obsessed over star wars minutia as others do over religious texts.

Jesus cosplay!

Posted by MutantMandias And those people are idiots, too.

You wouldn't say the same if you replaced "Star Wars" with "Doctor Who". Not to my face (avatar?) you wouldn't.

I love the good Doctor with all of my heart, but if you were to ever argue about a detail of Whovian lore as if it were real or had any shred of importance, I would shove a tube up your ass and pump you full of artron energy.