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UER Forum > Private Boards Index > Religious Discussion > When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture. (Viewed 14856 times)
tekriter 


Location: in the Hindu Kush
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Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 20 on 1/29/2012 5:11 PM >
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Posted by earthworm


currently religion is not mandated at gun point in most of the world.



While you might be technically right with the "most" there is still far to much forced religion.

Let’s look at islam, the world’s fastest growing religion:

As of 2009, over 1.6 billion or about 23% of the world population are Muslims. Of these, around 62% live in Asia-Pacific, 20% in the Middle East-North Africa,15% in Sub-Saharan Africa, around 3% in Europe and 0.3% in the Americas.
The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind.
According to Islamic law apostasy is identified by a list of actions such as conversion to another religion, denying the existence of God, rejecting the prophets, mocking God or the prophets, idol worship, rejecting the sharia, or permitting behavior that is forbidden by the sharia, such as adultery.

Of 193-196 countries, only 90 are considered free. 26 Muslim countries state that islam is the official state religion.

Even the united states changed things like the pledge of allegiance to include under god. While not at the point of a gun, it is far from okay to NOT be a christian in the US.

Just sayin.




It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
jeepdave 


Location: Anderson, SC
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It's also a gun.

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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 21 on 1/29/2012 6:20 PM >
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Bullshit tecky and you know it.




Ezekiel 25:17
MutantMandias 

Perverse and Often Baffling


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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 22 on 1/29/2012 7:26 PM >
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Posted by tekriter
it is far from okay to NOT be a christian in the US.


Posted by jeepdave
Bullshit tecky and you know it.


Yeah, a bit of an exaggeration. It is "okay" to not be a christian in the US, when "okay" is defined as having a life that is better than the vast majority of the world's population, without threat of death and other such inconveniences.

But, it is not okay to not be a christian when referring to the views of most American Christians, who claim to be living in a christian nation, based on freedom and choice, as long as it is not freedom of/from religion. And then there are the politicians, of whom, maybe 1 in 100 is a "true" christian, yet they endlessly spew christian rhetoric and modern conservative bastardizations of Christianity which would make Jesus weep if he in fact existed.




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mutantMandias is something more than human, more than a computer. mutantMandias is a murderously intelligent, sensually self-programmed, non-being
earthworm 


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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 23 on 1/30/2012 5:38 AM >
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You actually find in higher density populations, including megacities in "moslem" nations (you know, the fastest growing ones) a relatively high degree of tolerance, as in you will not be put to death in Jakarta for not being Moslem. I'll concede parts of Iran, Saudi Arabia, and actual theocracies do put people to death, but I suspect that it has more to do with political control of the populace, as it keeps certain folks in power, than a "pure" religious interpretation. It's rule through fear. Can you name one Moslem country that the state apparatus uses Islam to put people to death that also has popular support for it's government? State sanctioned killing for religious purposes have always been a rouse. Always.


Terrorist on the other hand, well they can strike anywhere, might not be connected to a state, though probably are actually also trying to achieve political ends rather than purely religious ones. Case in point: Palestine.




Tourism, human circulation considered as consumption is fundamentally nothing more than the leisure of going to see what has become banal.
splumer 


Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 24 on 1/30/2012 3:16 PM >
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There aren't that many countries that would put you to death for not being Muslim, even Saudi Arabia, but your rights are severly curtailed if you are not, and if you proselytize in the slightest, or say anything against Islam, heaven help you. Saudi Arabia, as well as a lot of other Muslim countries, has a lot of foreign workers, and SA has a few US military bases.


Even the united states changed things like the pledge of allegiance to include under god. While not at the point of a gun, it is far from okay to NOT be a christian in the US.


There are many states where you cannot be a lawyer or hold public office if you are an atheist. I could be kicked out of the Boy Scouts for being an atheist, 1st amendment notwithstanding. And how about Jessica Ahlquist? True, one generally isn't killed for being an atheist, but it's more acceptable to be gay than one.




“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”

-Madeline Albright
tekriter 


Location: in the Hindu Kush
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Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 25 on 1/30/2012 6:17 PM >
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Posted by jeepdave
Bullshit tecky and you know it.


Once again Jeepus ends all argument with his well constructed arguments, infallible logic and impenetrable knowledge of all things philosophical.

There are actually 7 US states where it is illegal for an atheist to hold any public office.

Is there any chance at all that someone who does not profess to believe in god could become the president of the USA?

You live in a country where the scopes monkey trial is re-argued every day.

http://www.wsbt.co...hing-bill-20120126,0,893282.story




It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
tekriter 


Location: in the Hindu Kush
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Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 26 on 1/30/2012 6:25 PM >
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Posted by earthworm
Can you name one Moslem country that the state apparatus uses Islam to put people to death that also has popular support for it's government?



Your circles of logic are too convoluted to even parse into intelligible arguments.

But this is obvious. Afghanistan. There is great video of a woman getting shot in the head at the Kabul soccer stadium for looking at another man. Sharia spoke, shot to the dead by a mullah, and the crown cheered. I saw things like this happen all over the place. Government for these people is often local, and they have no concept of "popular support" since they have no idea what democracy is, nor does it appear on their christmas list.

Interesting that you should mention popular support and religious government. Why don't you follow that to it's logical conclusion.




It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
Samurai 

Vehicular Lord Rick


Location: northeastern New York
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No matter where you go, there you are...

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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 27 on 1/30/2012 7:02 PM >
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Posted by tekriter

You live in a country where the scopes monkey trial is re-argued every day.

http://www.wsbt.co...hing-bill-20120126,0,893282.story


i actually lived in that town in Tennessee back in 2000... it was funny; the town was all homophobic and hateful of gay folks, but know this, it had to have the largest underground homosexual or curious population i have ever seen.

(for the record it was Dayton, TN. I lived just outside in Evensville)




earthworm 


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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 28 on 1/30/2012 8:25 PM >
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Posted by tekriter


Your circles of logic are too convoluted to even parse into intelligible arguments.


Your ideology is showing.


But this is obvious. Afghanistan. There is great video of a woman getting shot in the head at the Kabul soccer stadium for looking at another man. Sharia spoke, shot to the dead by a mullah, and the crown cheered. I saw things like this happen all over the place. Government for these people is often local, and they have no concept of "popular support" since they have no idea what democracy is, nor does it appear on their christmas list.

Interesting that you should mention popular support and religious government. Why don't you follow that to it's logical conclusion.


Why don't you follow that to it's logical conclusion? The use of force for control is how these folks stay in power. Religion is a easy way to enforce that, and always has been.

Here's one for you: the Chinese persecution of the Falun Gong. Last I checked China is a non-religious country that systematically burned Tibetan Buddhist monasteries and put Falun Gong practitioners to death. Why? They don't want competing ideologies. What's going on with government enforced exterminations regardless of the particulars, be they ethnic, religious, environmental (water, land) or ideological, is a struggle for control. This is true even on a local level, even with stoning of infidels.

All I'm saying is that your disdain is misplaced a little bit. You're attacking the means by which the atrocities are committed and not the cause of them. You're yelling at the rocks and not the person throwing them.




Tourism, human circulation considered as consumption is fundamentally nothing more than the leisure of going to see what has become banal.
splumer 


Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Gender: Male
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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 29 on 1/31/2012 4:57 PM >
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Posted by earthworm


Your ideology is showing.

Why don't you follow that to it's logical conclusion? The use of force for control is how these folks stay in power. Religion is a easy way to enforce that, and always has been.

...

All I'm saying is that your disdain is misplaced a little bit. You're attacking the means by which the atrocities are committed and not the cause of them. You're yelling at the rocks and not the person throwing them.


But the cause of these atrocities is religion. In Afghanistan, they justify these acts with religion, and they can point to the places in their holy books that says it's OK. Religion is another control method. And it's quite effective.





“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”

-Madeline Albright
MutantMandias 

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Are you a reporter? Contact me for a UE interview! Also not averse to the the idea of group/anal.

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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 30 on 1/31/2012 5:25 PM >
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So, the consensus seems to be that some people suck, and that religion is often used by those sucky people for evil purposes.

I know that lots of people perceive great personal benefits from religion, and there is clearly a great deal of true goodness that comes out of religious groups.

I think the most offensive thing in general is the blindness that religion perpetuates... to the realities of the world, to the evils done in their name, and to the true potential of humanity.




mutantMandias may cause dizziness, sexual nightmares, and sleep crime. ++++ mutantMandias has to return some videotapes ++++ Do not taunt mutantMandias

mutantMandias is something more than human, more than a computer. mutantMandias is a murderously intelligent, sensually self-programmed, non-being
earthworm 


Location: General Area
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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 31 on 1/31/2012 8:47 PM >
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Posted by splumer


But the cause of these atrocities is religion. In Afghanistan, they justify these acts with religion, and they can point to the places in their holy books that says it's OK. Religion is another control method. And it's quite effective.




You got it right in the second sentence, though it's not the cause.




Tourism, human circulation considered as consumption is fundamentally nothing more than the leisure of going to see what has become banal.
tekriter 


Location: in the Hindu Kush
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Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 32 on 2/1/2012 3:45 PM >
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Posted by earthworm


You got it right in the second sentence, though it's not the cause.


And the cause of the inquisition was a lack of public transit.




It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
earthworm 


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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 33 on 2/1/2012 8:54 PM >
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Posted by tekriter


And the cause of the inquisition was a lack of public transit.


The Vatican was a political center that was losing power at the time, but it would be foolish to say that the counter reformation would have been the only cause. It would be equally foolish to say that it was merely caused by people actually believing that their neighbors were witches. Have you read Malleus Maleficarum?




Tourism, human circulation considered as consumption is fundamentally nothing more than the leisure of going to see what has become banal.
tekriter 


Location: in the Hindu Kush
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Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 34 on 2/1/2012 9:39 PM >
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Equating religion with just another tool of repression like secret police or torture is ignorance of epic proportion.

Even if you were right, would that not just be another reason to fight against religion's powers?

The difference is, that unlike political tools, religion requires one to not ask why, to voluntarily submit to unreasonable ideas, to make leaps of faith.

The only similarity is fear, that both religion and politics exploit. If our primary motivations move from fear and superstition to honest inquiry and reason we would all be better off in politics and our beliefs about the nature of the universe.

You live in an empire in decline where religion and politics blur together and exploit your basest fears. Because it is okay not to ask why when it comes to questions about the universe, you are easily led. It is now impossible to have a rational public discussion about anything in america, from abortion to health care to taxes on the rich to whom to invade an why.





It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
earthworm 


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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 35 on 2/2/2012 9:51 PM >
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Posted by tekriter
Equating religion with just another tool of repression like secret police or torture is ignorance of epic proportion.


You're right... though that's not what I am suggesting. It's an excuse for repression, more akin to "the war on terror" than departments like DHS or the CIA. To say that religion is like the CIA is getting into Da Vinci Code territory.



Even if you were right, would that not just be another reason to fight against religion's powers?


That is part of what I'm suggesting, but I'm also saying that you're doing it wrong.


The difference is, that unlike political tools, religion requires one to not ask why, to voluntarily submit to unreasonable ideas, to make leaps of faith.

The only similarity is fear, that both religion and politics exploit. If our primary motivations move from fear and superstition to honest inquiry and reason we would all be better off in politics and our beliefs about the nature of the universe.


I see the distinction you're making but I don't see the difference. Take that first sentence and put it into the terms of american politics:

The difference is, that unlike democrats, republicans require one to not ask why, to voluntarily submit to unreasonable ideas, to make leaps of faith.

The difference is, that unlike republicans, democrats require one to not ask why, to voluntarily submit to unreasonable ideas, to make leaps of faith.


Your tautology could be applied to any political system.

Inquiry and reason only go so far as ideology and culture allow. I don't suppose that the Global Warming debate is motivated by religion as much as by pro-business ideology v. scientific ideology.


You live in an empire in decline where religion and politics blur together and exploit your basest fears. Because it is okay not to ask why when it comes to questions about the universe, you are easily led. It is now impossible to have a rational public discussion about anything in america, from abortion to health care to taxes on the rich to whom to invade an why.




Ha. You probably think I'm conservative. Not the case. I'm doing my best in this conversation to remain neutral, though I know that is impossible. But really? Is the person arguing another side than your own instantly the exact opposite of your position?


Taxes on the rich having to do with religion? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only relatively mainstream side that I've seen using such rhetoric was the occupy people saying Jesus was a communist. Same with healthcare. Didn't he cure some lepers in one of those bible stories?

Abortion and invasions though, do you really think that the people in power that actually make those decisions believe that they are religious decisions, or do those decisions serve a higher power than god: control and regional influence. Politicians exploit religion for their own purposes, not the purposes of what is actually written into scripture. We're not in a theocracy. Our leaders are not priests (though even if they were, I don't think my argument would change all that much).


I'm not very interested in policy decisions though. I think that the changes that need to occur in society for it to be based on "honest inquiry and reason" would be more profound than what could be achieved by simply voting or community organizing, especially if people uncritical of their core beliefs such as yourself are supposed to be the men on white horses come to save us from ourselves.







[last edit 2/2/2012 9:54 PM by earthworm - edited 1 times]

Tourism, human circulation considered as consumption is fundamentally nothing more than the leisure of going to see what has become banal.
earthworm 


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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 36 on 2/2/2012 10:18 PM >
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And to get back to the topic at hand, it would seem to me that a lot of the news stories in that picture are caused by political decisions or people that are mentally unstable to begin with and untreated because an irrational belief can be a societal norm.


A woman cuts her baby's arms off because it says so in the bible. End of discussion. Lets not look to see if she had postpartum depression or anything. Let's just go with the simple explanation that reinforces our own ideology and never question it. How is that so god damned different than what you're assuming her decision making process is?


If you're going to deny the power of god but allow the power of congress you're doing it wrong. In other words, "god is dead... so what?" God's only power would have been that which we can not yet control, earthquakes etc. Unless you're really pissed off about earthquakes you ought to be angry at man wielding control.






Tourism, human circulation considered as consumption is fundamentally nothing more than the leisure of going to see what has become banal.
KublaKhan 


Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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With Satan, it's always gimmie, gimmie.

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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 37 on 2/4/2012 4:06 PM >
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We're living in Univ. Edinburgh's Family Housing complex, a weird horseshoe-shaped building (check it out on Google Maps), along with a dozen or so Evangelical Christian theology students and their families, all of whom are from Kansas, Texas, New Hampshire blah blah blah and all look like very handsome televangelists. They avoid me like the plague because I wear one of these on a shirt, and they tell their children not to play with my son, and tell their wives not to associate with my wife, the reason being (or so I suspect) is that I turned down an offer to participate in a Wednesday Evening Soup Dinner and Bible Study when we first arrived back in September.




"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
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Samurai 

Vehicular Lord Rick


Location: northeastern New York
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No matter where you go, there you are...

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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 38 on 2/4/2012 4:39 PM >
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Posted by KublaKhan
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We're living in Univ. Edinburgh's Family Housing complex, a weird horseshoe-shaped building (check it out on Google Maps), along with a dozen or so Evangelical Christian theology students and their families, all of whom are from Kansas, Texas, New Hampshire blah blah blah and all look like very handsome televangelists. They avoid me like the plague because I wear one of these on a shirt, and they tell their children not to play with my son, and tell their wives not to associate with my wife, the reason being (or so I suspect) is that I turned down an offer to participate in a Wednesday Evening Soup Dinner and Bible Study when we first arrived back in September.


i would actively seek these people out and MAKE them interact with me, just for the intimidation factor.




Harvestman 


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Everything about me has a poker face.

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Re: When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture.
< Reply # 39 on 2/4/2012 10:41 PM >
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This inspired me to make this:





Oh good, my slow clap processor made it into this thing.
UER Forum > Private Boards Index > Religious Discussion > When people ask why I have a problem with religion, I post a picture. (Viewed 14856 times)
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