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 Ben
  
Noble Donor
Location: Mojave Desert
Gender: Male
 |  |  | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 20 on 11/21/2003 12:44 AM >
|  | | | Posted by Krazy
I vaguely remember seeing on some documentary about gold mining somewhere on the far side of the world (I think it was in Africa) where the miners would use mercury to separate the gold from the impurities. The documentary was stressing how the mercury was poisoning the water supply when it was being carelessly discarded by the miners. Does mercury do the same job as cyanide in this regard? That would be another reason to be leary of gold mines.
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Mercury is used because of its unusual reaction with alluvial gold. In a small placer mining operation (like panning in a stream bed), you end up with small particles of gold, sometimes as small as dust. When you add mercury to the gold dust, it forms amalgam, a gold-mercury alloy. The mercury can hold many times its weight in gold, so you end up with a blob of mostly gold. To get rid of the mercury, the easy way is to just heat the blob in a crucible or bar mold with a torch. The mercury vaporizes, which is when the miners are getting a bad dose.
Mercury, like many heavy metals, is a bioaccumulative toxin. A little bit won't hurt too much, like eating fish, but chronic exposure causes chronic poisoning.
Twin Turbo, people might take you more seriously if you don't post questionable things as absolute truth. Cyanide does not kill instantly; the human body can even convert small amounts of cyanide into harmless chemicals. Exposure to low levels for a period of time has a number of side effects, but death isn't neccisarly one of them. Skin contact with it can give you sores or a rash.
In mining, cynide salts are mixed with finely ground ore. The cyanide bonds with the silver or gold, and can then be seperated again with zinc.
It can certainly be deadly. Cyanide gas was used in Nazi death chambers, and their current U.S. descendants. Taken orally, cyanide salts make a relatively quick acting suicide pill, as demonstrated by Alan Turing.
We're on the internet; there's no reason to make guesses about any of this stuff.
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rogerneon
Location: Portland, Oregon USA
Gender: Male
| |  | | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 21 on 11/21/2003 3:12 AM >
| | | | In the same region I mentioned before I can remember walking across a flat "shelf" that had been cut in a steep hillside so I could get a better view of the valley below. When I turned around to go back I had one of those OH MY GAWD moments when I realized I had, without realizing it, walked across a strip of ground about 15 feet wide that separated two big pits that were probably 25 feet in diameter and at least 30 feet deep WITHOUT noticing either pit.
The pits were empty with slightly sloping sides, and whatever had originally lined them was gone. I honestly cannot say if I would have noticed before falling into one of them or not-- as I said I had already walked between without seeing them once.
When I showed them to my dad, he wondered if they might have once been cyanide storage tanks, as we were very near an old mill. A lot of metal had been salvaged there, so it's possible that the pits were once lined, which would have made it possible for them to contain cyaninde.
So I guess the lesson here is that it's not enough to be wary of just mine tunnels and shafts; there are plenty of other dangers around old mines.
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Intalex
This member has been banned
Ascended Being
| | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 22 on 11/21/2003 11:37 AM >
|  | | | Cyanide IS lethal. Ignore this "ben" person saying it's safe to go round breathing it in and such. It isn't, it's a well known killer.
I retract my statements about arsenic being used in the EXTRACTION process. After re-reading the chemical composition of tin ore, it seems as though where there's tin there's arsenic.
Which however doesn't explain why they leave it in huge purified heaps, it should only be found in the spoil heaps. So they must be taking the unwanted arsenic back to the sites to bury.
Either way, don't eat it, it's not tastey. 
If you find a gold mine that doesnt get its gold by panning for it, feel free to explore unless the pit props are 100's of years old.
If the props are 100's of years old, and you happen to wonder in, my suggestion is that you don't sneeze.
"What's that smell?" "Oh that would be me, I've been swimming in raw sewage, I love it!" - Naked Gun |
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Uncle Goose
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Gender: Male
The Goose knows best.
| |  | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 23 on 11/21/2003 12:19 PM >
| | | | Cyanide is indeed very dangerous and toxic. 500ppm can kill you in 5minutes and 500ppm is not much. NEVER underestimate the danger of chemicals!!
When you heat mercury then you get HgO which can cause halucinations and eventualy death. if you get too much Mercury in you body death follows usually within 10days.
Arsenic is not as deadly as it seems as in Victorian times it was a habbit to eat arsenic to increase sexual drift. It is know as a drugs but today it's rahter rare that somebody is addicted to it because it's quite hard to get in the first place and once you eat arsenic you can't loose the habbit because the effects of the detox are so horrible that rarly anyone could stand the pains caused by the detox.
A 1000 days of sorrow can disapear in a split second, it takes only one person to make it happen. |
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Intalex
This member has been banned
Ascended Being
| | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 24 on 11/21/2003 12:59 PM >
| | | | Also arsenic is present in the chemical makeup of commercially produced tobacco.
Arsenic is in fact easy to get hold of, as some of us had been saying, tin mine's leave huge heaps of it lying around their site.
Arsenic is used in rat bait, because it is nowhere near as lethal to humans as it is to rodents. Even tin miners in the early 19th century knew the risks of it however. The development of a strong pastry crust around the outside of the cornish pasty, was so that the miners could hold the pasty without worrying about eating the arsenic from their own hands.
For those of you who don't know what a pasty is, I suggest you check out this link: http://www.propercornish.co.uk/
Lots of interesting stuff about Cornish culture...
Anyway my point is just to outline what UG was saying about not underestimating these things. There is a reason why Arsenic and Cyanide are famous.
If it has labels on it, if it looks caustic, don't even bother with it, stay well away. And if you are unsure, visit your local doctor to get yourself checked out. A healthy understanding of geology and chemistry is always a good idea before you enter a suspect site too.
"What's that smell?" "Oh that would be me, I've been swimming in raw sewage, I love it!" - Naked Gun |
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Ben
Noble Donor
Location: Mojave Desert
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 25 on 11/22/2003 1:29 AM >
| | | | Posted by Twin Turbo
Cyanide IS lethal. Ignore this "ben" person saying it's safe to go round breathing it in and such. It isn't, it's a well known killer. |
What the fuck? I never said to eat the stuff. I specifically said that It can certainly be deadly. Everything I said can be backed up by references, can you back up your contention that cyanide "kills instantly"?
There are safe exposure limits. It is possible to explore a site without dying from it. I'm not arguing that there aren't dangers, just that there are safe limits.
Finally, what do you mean by this "ben" person? Ben is on my birth certificate. I doubt Twin Turbo is on yours.
Uncle Goose, what cyanide in what situation are you talking about for 500 parts per million? Hydrogen cyanide in air, potassium or sodium cyanide in water?
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Jester
Location: Vancouver,B.C. Canada
Gender: Male
Always just out of sight...
| | | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 26 on 11/22/2003 1:48 AM >
|  | | | Posted by Ben
If there was a good old boys club (TINGOBC), I don't think it would have to include people who had a lot of knowledge or experience. It just includes the people who knock down the newbs, either for their technique, ignorance about "the way things are done", or english skills.
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Ben, you just experienced precisely why some people get treated like you mentioned (at least why they're treated that way by me). It's not because they're new, it's because they're idiots...
but back to the topic.
Mines are such a sketchy exploration, so many dangers and so little chance for help in time if you do happen to fall victim to any of those dangers while exploring. I've been at Britannia mine, but it is quite safe as they go since it's just used for demonstration purposes now. The site itself is very contaminatesd though, and has been a major issue for years about what they're going to do with it... We do plan on checking some more out since BC has lots of closed mines, but I can't get to any of them without a car...
It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf. |
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Intalex
This member has been banned
Ascended Being
| | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 27 on 11/22/2003 10:54 AM >
| | | | Most the people contributing to this thread I suspect have never even tried to explore a mine.
I on the other hand, come from a family who have a long history of exploring mines for the sake of industrial archaeology.
Following on from where my father, step father, grandparents and their parents left off, I've discovered over 20 miles of previously unknown mines, and documented them accordingly. Never in my 5 years of being an explorer, have I ever heard stories of anyone dieing in mines, other than when they were still working.
Which stands to reason when you consider that these people were hacking away with pickaxes, and hammering at the walls using super heavy drills, then heaving all the rubble out using trains. It's no suprise that caveins and explosions were so common.
Just be alert, don't do anything stupid, and don't be too smart assed about the way you go about things. It would be blasè of someone to just consider themselves safe merely because they know what they are doing.
Language timothy...
| Ben is on my birth certificate. I doubt Twin Turbo is on yours. |
That has NOTHING to do with this thread, but for the sake of a little flaming, I'll simply explain to you that my personal details are none of your business. Even if it is just my first name.
I just love the way you always put your sentences together as if you are genuinely trying to make a point, when actually all you have figured out is that most probably Twin Turbo isn't on my birth certificate. Clever you! Is that supposed to be an insult? What was the point of saying that?
In fact don't bother answering, I think if I see one more smart assed knowitall comment from you I'll throw up all over your birth certificate.
"What's that smell?" "Oh that would be me, I've been swimming in raw sewage, I love it!" - Naked Gun |
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Uncle Goose
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Gender: Male
The Goose knows best.
| | | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 28 on 11/22/2003 4:02 PM >
| | | | Posted by Ben
Uncle Goose, what cyanide in what situation are you talking about for 500 parts per million? Hydrogen cyanide in air, potassium or sodium cyanide in water?
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I was talking about Hydrogen Cyanide in the air.
A 1000 days of sorrow can disapear in a split second, it takes only one person to make it happen. |
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Ben
Noble Donor
Location: Mojave Desert
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 29 on 11/22/2003 4:52 PM >
| | | | Posted by Uncle Goose
Posted by Ben
Uncle Goose, what cyanide in what situation are you talking about for 500 parts per million? Hydrogen cyanide in air, potassium or sodium cyanide in water?
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I was talking about Hydrogen Cyanide in the air.
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Ah. Is that really a danger in an inactive mine? OSHA maximum is 10ppm continuous for a 40 hour work week.
Thanks Twin, for proving my point.
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Freak
Location: Usually Alaska, now MSP.
Gender: Male
Hypocrite
| | | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 30 on 11/23/2003 8:42 AM >
| | | | Posted by Intalex
Most the people contributing to this thread I suspect have never even tried to explore a mine.
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I grew up exploring abandoned mines, with and without permission, so I feel somewhat qualified to comment on this.
I've discovered over 20 miles of previously unknown mines, and documented them accordingly. |
Previously unknown eh? I'm sure no one knew about those mines, especially not the people who dug them! Neither would the National Mine Map repository, to whom mines are legally required to submit maps of their workings, and whom researches and collects all available information about mines dug before this law went into effect: http://mmr.osmre.gov/
Never in my 5 years of being an explorer, have I ever heard stories of anyone dieing in mines, other than when they were still working.
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Hmm, maybe you need to do more research or occasionally watch the news, kids and other explorers die in mines all the time.
http://www.asmi.state.az.us/minhaz.html
http://www.nm.blm.gov/nmso/aml/aml_projects.htm
http://www.propertyrightsresearch.org/death_toll_rises_but_money_in_mi1.htm
I'd look up some more but you get the idea.
Turn off the internet and go play outside.
http://spamusement...hp/comics/view/137 |
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Samurai
 
Vehicular Lord Rick
Location: northeastern New York
No matter where you go, there you are...
| | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 31 on 11/23/2003 8:45 AM >
| | | | Hell, Freak... here, mines are a part of the landscape. There isn't one kid I went to school with that didn't venture into the "ice mines" (local slang) on barton hill in Witherbee, NY.
BUT, there was always this weird kind of respect for those crazy holes in the ground. Kinda weird.
Samurai
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Intalex
This member has been banned
Ascended Being
| | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 32 on 11/23/2003 8:59 AM >
| | | | Where I live, mining is our culture. There are towering mountains of sand, huge embankments of waste material, and immense pits with sheer cliffs often hundreds of meters drop.
Not only that but the prospectors bore holes to take core samples. Dropping a stone into these things is like dropping a stone into a bottomless pit.
Plus whole houses have dissappeared into collapsing chambers.
So just living in such dense mining country is dangerous enough, let alone exploring it. In fact, not too long ago, a conveyor belt that was built up the side of a sand tip to deposit quarry waste, slid down the side of it's pit because of rain. The only thing propping the conveyer up were railway sleepers. The entire conveyor belt, along with a landslide of sand and water completely flattened a local school below, killing all the teachers and children.
I luckily don't live in an area quite as dangerous as this, but places like Redruth, Gunheath, and Indian Queens have quite a frightening track record.
"What's that smell?" "Oh that would be me, I've been swimming in raw sewage, I love it!" - Naked Gun |
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Samurai
Vehicular Lord Rick
Location: northeastern New York
No matter where you go, there you are...
| | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 33 on 11/23/2003 9:43 AM >
| | | | i hear that intalex... Mineville and Witherbee NY are literally sinking into the ground. Every time there is a mine quake, the whole hamlet booms and shakes. I am going to scan a couple of pics from Mineville tomorrow... show you the great big huge and wide holes that Republic Steel left behind when they exited the area in 1972. What a mess.
And now, because the mines are filling with water and collapsing (the shafts extended out under Lake Champlain), the town, county and state have no idea what to do about the problem.
From what I've seen from the West Virginian and Pennsylvanian mining sites, neither do they.
Samurai
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Intalex
This member has been banned
Ascended Being
| | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 34 on 11/23/2003 4:50 PM >
| | | | I have a solution for you Samurai, but you'll have to suggest it with alot of cost solutions, and insist that the work it will develop will be good for the economy.
Where I live, the local mining companies have been covering their heaps over with grass, after landscaping them using bulldozers and diggers. They've reshaped the landscape, turned the pits into fishing lakes, and wherever possible let nature take back a hold again.
It's taking quite a few years, but filling the mines with concrete, using the land to open new roads, and even opening up the famous Eden Project has really helped cornwall.
The income from the fishing lakes and Eden Project are paying for all the costs, and are generating an influx of tourists and workers alike.
Also filling the mine shafts in with concrete has stopped the caveins in most places.
I'm not suggesting it's anywhere near "fixed" what mining has done, and lots of pits and heaps still remain, but it has prevented certain places in cornwall from falling beyond rescue. Maybe it could work for Mineville and witherbee too.
"What's that smell?" "Oh that would be me, I've been swimming in raw sewage, I love it!" - Naked Gun |
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Samurai
Vehicular Lord Rick
Location: northeastern New York
No matter where you go, there you are...
| | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 35 on 11/25/2003 5:31 AM >
| | | | The problem isn't as easily solved as all that because these mines are DEEP... In fact, that was why Republic Steel pulled out of the area. It was too expensive to pull the ore out from that far down. I talked to an old timer here this morning when i was getting my paper, and he said that from the surface to where he was working, the ride took close to an hour and that was just to the bottom of the elevator.
For the titanium/ilmenite mine out in Tahawus and the garnet mine at Barton Hill NY, those pits filled with water and have become lakes. The tailing piles that have been left behind here, the older ones have grown over and look like odd-shaped hills. The largest one between Mineville and Port Henry doesn't seem to have anything that wants to grow on it.
The problem of Mineville-Witherbee has gotten worse in the past 10 years. Back in 99, before I moved to Tennessee, a hole opened up down on the corner of my street... That was kinda scary considering I live not 30 yards from it! I'm not sure how they are going to solve this problem. Concrete wouldn't work because of the way that these mines were cut/dug. Some of the chambers are larger than Yankee Stadium, the support columns something like 25-40 feet in diameter. From what this old guy said this morning, it was like a whole other universe down there. And these mines have been filling with water since 1973 when Republic Steel finally shut the pumps off and left for good.
Samurai
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'Dukes
Noble Donor
Gender: Male
At least someone llikes me
| | | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 36 on 11/25/2003 5:54 AM >
| | | | Amazing what you can pick up here. I've always lived upstate in NY, and have been in the Lake George region for a year and a half. I'm probably fifty miles from Samurai and never had any idea that mining was so big up here. I assumed most of the mines were dead, such as those in Graphite, which no longer really exist, (the early source of all the Ticonderoga #2 pencils, for those which remember that from middle school), and didn't realize that the Lake Champlain had such problems.
My eccentric Uncle in Colorado bought a gold mine in the early '80's. I remember one building where all of us kids were allowed to lay on our stomachs and look down this shaft that seemed to go forever... We couldn't walk up to it .
Thanks to all for providing local info which you never hear about in the mainstream news!
I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying. |
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Samurai
Vehicular Lord Rick
Location: northeastern New York
No matter where you go, there you are...
| | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 37 on 11/25/2003 7:08 AM >
| | | | from May to November check out the Mining & Railroad Museum in Port Henry right next to the Moriah Town Hall... Another cool place you might want to check out for some more history (enough that it will make your head hurt  ) is the Adirondack Musiem in Blue Mountain Lake, NY.
Samurai
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'Dukes
Noble Donor
Gender: Male
At least someone llikes me
| | | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 38 on 11/25/2003 7:24 AM >
| | | | The adirondack museum is cool. I guess they have an original layout of the macyntire mine as is was in the 1800's. I'll have to check out the Port Henry museum.
I last went to the adirondack museum in the '80s, tried to go there two weeks ago to do some research on the Tahawus mine, but never realized they were closed after Ocober.
I got your tour winner right here pussies, at least he'd crash out trying. |
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Intalex
This member has been banned
Ascended Being
| | Re: Mine hazards:
<Reply # 39 on 11/25/2003 12:09 PM >
| | | | They don't need to fill all the mines and chambers, just the ones under street level. They could fill them with anything from sand and rocks to concrete.
And beleive it or not it is possible to level the verticle tips. I've seen it done before. There is still one surviving "sand pyramid" in cornwall, which has become quite famous and hasn't been taken down, but all the sand banks and tips have been landscaped.
Recently two young girls were running around the mica dams here in cornwall, which are basically like huge sand dams that eventually get filled up with mica and about 7 or 8 feet of water in the deepest parts. The girls got stuck in the sand like mica while they were running around exploring, and started to sink. They were eventually removed by firemen who were alerted by one of the workers, but now the mining company has to look at making their sites safer.
This is terrible news, it means that lots of sites will get closed off and entrance gates will be put everywhere. And I can kiss goodbye to just wandering into a site. Well, possibly.
"What's that smell?" "Oh that would be me, I've been swimming in raw sewage, I love it!" - Naked Gun |
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