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 No Dynamics
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
 |  |  | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 20 on 10/31/2005 4:15 PM >
|  | | | Posted by mortimer
My sympathies, that's a horrible accusation to be hit with, although I believe the comment was more a general one, regarding the regular overnight visitors that quite often start huge bonfires in or beside the buildings. Usually it's outside, under the roof right at the very back between the active and inactive buildings, and the boarding over the entrances usually seems to be the fuel of choice.
Anyway, congrats on pulling off what sounds like a cool event. I'm glad whenever I see abandoned places put to some sort of creative use, whether it's the setting for photos, paintings or performance. Wish I could have been there.
I read through a bit of the thread on the other site, and just as a bit of advice to whomever started the thread (I'm not sure who you are on that board), linking to other people's photos without permission, or giving them credit, is not cool. The link probably stopped working because the photographer wasn't asked, and probably didn't want his work associated with a party in the Brickworks. Whether it was a positive event or just a drugged-up rave doesn't matter, you gotta ask before you can use other people's work, and understand that serious photographers don't give up copyright just because an image is posted on their website.
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Easy, big fella.
I wasn't saying it was a horrible accusation. Somebody insinuated that the show was thrown by Rosedale kids, and I merely corrected him/her. I didn't imply that the accusation was some kind of insult.
While that's kind of true about photo usage, I wasn't using photos taken by someone else on my own personal page. I didn't mention the photographer because his name isn't listed on his site. Instead of this kind of credit, I just put a link to his photo page, which was easily searchable on Google (showed up on the 1st page after searching "don valley brick works"). By linking, you're not "associating". If this were the case, the internet could be sought out to create ridiculous "associations" between people who aren't even Kevin Bacon. True, I should have gotten permission for the one photo I put on the thread. But the link? I dunno...
Needless to say, people post photos in messageboards all the time without permission. It's a lot different than putting images on your personal home page.
[last edit 10/31/2005 4:18 PM by No Dynamics - edited 1 times]
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Guy With Hat
    
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
Balconies shmalconies.
| |  |  | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 21 on 10/31/2005 5:24 PM >
| | | | Posted by No Dynamics
I co-organized the show there on Friday. I am not from Rosedale.
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Yeah, sorry. That wasn't directed at you. I'm just a bit bitter right now about stuff in general. I'm cooling it right now.
The first time I went to the Brickworks, the kids from Rosedale were throwing a big party. The only contact I had with their parties was waiting around as the only explorer there with a car drove kids too drunk to speak coherently, wailing and flailing (and violently vomiting), back to their respective homes.
Er, not that I am angry at them for THAT, shit happens, but when that's the first view you get of a Brickworks party (regardless of who threw it) then they aren't really synonymous with responsibility.
Anyway it's awesome that it went well.
[last edit 10/31/2005 5:25 PM by Guy With Hat - edited 1 times]
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mortimer
Location: teronno
| | | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 22 on 10/31/2005 5:35 PM >
| | | |
The rosedale comment was a joke, it sounded like you were mad at someone saying you were from rosedale.
Didn't want to sound so harsh about the photo stuff, but it's how I make my living... all I'm saying is it would have been nice if in the announcement, you said "see so-and-so's photos here" instead of just using someone's hard work anonymously to promote an event of your own.
| I didn't mention the photographer because his name isn't listed on his site. |
Two clicks from the original photo link you posted got me here:
http://invisibleth....com/potd/info.php
Name, contact info, and a request that you contact the photographer about using pictures. Even though you only posted one in the original message and linked to the others, you were still using the photos as a way of promoting an event. It wasn't a thread to say 'look at these cool photos I found,' it was using a photographer's work to illustrate how cool the venue was for a show you were co-promoting.
Anyway, just saying the same things as before, hopefully clearer and without you thinking I'm on the attack, because I'm not:
-funny joke (in my mind) about not wanting to be seen as a rosedalien
-Congrats on the show, wish I could have been there (and I actually mean that)
-friendly nudge to contact photographers if you're going to use their photos (posted directly, linked, however they're used) to promote an event, which is much different from posting a 'hey, look at these cool photos' thread on a message board
yep. |
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oldtimer
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
| | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 23 on 10/31/2005 5:39 PM >
| | | | Comments like this on that other forum:
Oh man, I just thought of something. What do we do if we have to go to the bathroom?
Laugh if you will, but it's a legitimate question. |
| I'm bringing a couple rolls of toilet paper for those who must shit. You can wash your hands in the swamp. |
That question has never answered. I guess UE'ers will have to watch where they step now. Even more so.
Makes me want to think twice before posting any more locations. I now have to think how would I like the place filled with bonfires, beer bottles, and who knows what other paraphernalia is left behind from a rave.
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micro
 
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 24 on 10/31/2005 5:42 PM >
| | | | Posted by No Dynamics
I do feel bad about the beer bottles people left behind (although, really, it wasn't that many), so I will promise to go clean them up at some point this week. |
I really wouldn't bother. The place has been full of garbage and broken beer bottles for the longest time and I can't see how a few more could detract from a place that's already pretty trashed to begin with.
Looks like everyone had a good time though. Nice work pulling it all off and something different with the place. Kinda sorry I missed it..
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oldtimer
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
| | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 25 on 10/31/2005 6:31 PM >
| | | | I've had quite the opposite experience the three times I was there. I found the place to be rather clear of obvious post factory decommission garbage. I don't count piles of brick or sand. Some of the doorways had been barricaded by our resident caretaker - using plywood, 2x8s, pipes, more bricks. I would call such rearrangement of indigenous items visual garbage. Also I'm not counting the impressive collection of bottles in the middle of the little "private" area said caretaker occupies. I very much doubt that even many seasoned visitors to the Brickworks have seen that.
It's one of the features that kept me coming back. The noticeable lack of garbage.
If there is a deposit of obviously post-modern bona-fide garbage then I must have missed it. Of course that was before the rave.
[last edit 10/31/2005 6:37 PM by oldtimer - edited 1 times]
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yokes
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
I aim to misbehave
| | | | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 26 on 10/31/2005 6:42 PM >
| | | |
I'm with you. The place is remarkably garbage free.
Posted by oldtimer
I've had quite the opposite experience the three times I was there. I found the place to be rather clear of obvious post factory decommission garbage. I don't count piles of brick or sand. Some of the doorways had been barricaded by our resident caretaker - using plywood, 2x8s, pipes, more bricks. I would call such rearrangement of indigenous items visual garbage. Also I'm not counting the impressive collection of bottles in the middle of the little "private" area said caretaker occupies. I very much doubt that even many seasoned visitors to the Brickworks have seen that.
It's one of the features that kept me coming back. The noticeable lack of garbage.
If there is a deposit of obviously post-modern bona-fide garbage then I must have missed it. Of course that was before the rave.
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"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water and stupid men." - Richard Nickel |
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The Photomat
| | | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 27 on 10/31/2005 6:45 PM >
| | | |
| I really wouldn't bother. The place has been full of garbage and broken beer bottles for the longest time and I can't see how a few more could detract from a place that's already pretty trashed to begin with. |
That's like saying "what's another piece of trash on the streets"!
If the organizer is willing to go back and clean this up, why discourage it?
Besides the 20 or so bottles, cans and tea lights the place was pretty spotless.
I must have just missed you guys as I got there right at 8am. I would have liked to photograph the last of the party goers.
Here's a shot from what looked like the "main hub of excitement"
Photography Site: http://www.thephotomat.ca
Flickr: http://www.flickr....hotos/thephotomat/
DK Photogroup: http://www.dkphotogroup.com/ |
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micro
Gender: Male
Slowly I turned
| | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 28 on 10/31/2005 10:03 PM >
| | | | That's like saying "what's another piece of trash on the streets"!
If the organizer is willing to go back and clean this up, why discourage it?
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No, I think there's a big difference between leaving garbage behind in public streets and leaving garbage behind in *abandoned buildings*.
You can't expect these places to remain spotless, nor can you expect people to go clean up a little mess just because it offends your set of values. Some kids put on a show (in a decrepit abandoned building, no less), a good time was had, and as a result a few bottles got left behind. Big deal. Rather than making a fuss about it here (or on any other board) and making the guy feel as though he has to go out of his way to clean this shit up, I think we should try looking at it from their perspective a little and just let it go.
If you want neat and tidy, go to the distillery district or something.
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yokes
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
I aim to misbehave
| | | | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 29 on 11/1/2005 12:02 AM >
| | | | Take only photos, leave only footprints.
"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water and stupid men." - Richard Nickel |
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No Dynamics
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 30 on 11/1/2005 12:39 AM >
| | | | Posted by yokes
Take only photos, leave only footprints.
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This is like turning urban exploration into a religion. If you make statements like that (and I KNOW it's the supposed "urban explorer code"), you've got to justify them with some semblance of rationality. I agree with the statement in many instances, but certainly not in all, or even most. I would say it mainly has to do with security, ie more refuse leads to more security leads to less exploration. That might be true sometimes. But not in the Brick Works. Another justification could be that it somehow "taints" the environment, but who's to say what kind of refuse and decomposition is desirable in an abandoned building. Why is partying of a more recent kind frowned upon? It's like Christians who can read about sex and depravity in the Bible but nowhere else.
Urban explorers don't have THE RIGHT to how abandoned buildings are dealt with after they're abandoned. They're just one group of people who uses said buildings for their own purposes. As Micro said, it all comes down to the imposition of values on other people who don't necessarily subscribe to your view on a given subject.
Personally, in the MANY times I've been to the Brick Works in the past, I've never been bothered by the piles of bottles left behind by rowdy teens. It adds to the charm, for me.
That said, I'm still going to go back and clean shit up, even though as you can see from the photo, it's nothing insane. It seems to be the consensus that a clean up is in order (and I do believe in personal responsibility, don't get me wrong), and since most of the people going there are the people on this board, it is probably in the interest of most people that shit gets tidied up. So, yeah... there you go.
Finally, IT WAS A GREAT SHOW.
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No Dynamics
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 31 on 11/1/2005 12:49 AM >
| | | | Posted by oldtimer
Comments like this on that other forum:
That question has never answered. I guess UE'ers will have to watch where they step now. Even more so.
Makes me want to think twice before posting any more locations. I now have to think how would I like the place filled with bonfires, beer bottles, and who knows what other paraphernalia is left behind from a rave.
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IT WASN'T A FRIGGIN' RAVE. Not every place where people congregate outside of standard venues to hear music constitutes a rave.
Don't worry, nobody shat anywhere. I forgot to bring toilet paper. And I'm sure if they did it, they did it outside.
Finally, why be such a small-thinking square about events in abandoned buildings? Personally, I think arts-and-music-related events in said spaces trump solitary journeys-to-take-pictures as far as "amazingness" goes. Not to knock going to places and taking pictures. That's great too. A few beer bottles isn't going to ruin that. (Anyway, as I've said before a couple times, I'm going back to the Brick Works to clean up, so don't worry)
[last edit 11/1/2005 12:56 AM by No Dynamics - edited 1 times]
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mortimer
Location: teronno
| | | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 32 on 11/1/2005 5:42 PM >
| | | | Hey, don't get so worked up about the rave thing, it's inevitable that people will assume that's what it was. Probably because the Brickworks have hosted a fair number of them in its history. Besides, it really doesn't matter if anyone on UER thinks it was a rave or a concert or whatever, this site isn't really the audience for that sort of thing anyway.
Anyway, don't sweat the garbage. Like I said before, and a few others have echoed, any creative use of an abandoned (or just underused) space is a good thing, in my view. It's the same reasoning that makes skaters using the financial district as a giant skatepark such a great thing (I used to be one of them).
Creative re-use of space, public, private, abandoned or otherwise, is a beautiful thing. It means people are out living instead of sitting at home watching tv (or a computer screen).
And for those worried about the database, and the general population making use of it, well, if you don't want anyone to know about your super-secret extra-special locations, don't tell anyone about them. If you want to share without letting the whole world know, the internet is not the place to do it, the real world is. It's really that simple.
yep. |
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yokes
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
I aim to misbehave
| | | | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 33 on 11/1/2005 6:20 PM >
| | | | | Creative re-use of space, public, private, abandoned or otherwise, is a beautiful thing. |
As a general rule, I tend to agree. However, it stops being a beautiful thing when the re-use of the space makes the space worse off.
"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water and stupid men." - Richard Nickel |
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mortimer
Location: teronno
| | | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 34 on 11/1/2005 6:33 PM >
| | | | | As a general rule, I tend to agree. However, it stops being a beautiful thing when the re-use of the space makes the space worse off. |
I agree, except I also believe that, as much as we'd like to be, us UE folk are not in any sort of position to judge who or what is proper use. I know we like to preach a lot, but our ethics are exactly that - our ethics, not what we should enforce on anyone else with a different set of values. Sure, we can encourage people to be a bit more responsible, but in the end, we're all trespassers.
I also don't think a few beer bottles makes the Brickworks any worse off than it already is, as they're easily picked up and/or moved, unlike the (not very good) graffiti, although I don't think you were specifically talking about this case anyway.
yep. |
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Guy With Hat
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
Balconies shmalconies.
| | | | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 35 on 11/1/2005 6:46 PM >
| | | | Calm down, bros. We really shouldn't be worried about this specific event, it looks like it went swimmingly and despite the leftover bottles and (if I remember correctly) candles left burning, the event was handled very responsibly. Heck, well-organized and well run parties in abandoned buildings are something I FULLY support.
We've just had huge problems with word getting out to police or security about parties, both real and exaggerated, which have wound up getting places locked up tight and inaccessible for like half a year. Specifically I'm thinking of the Malt Plant back in aught three. I think some people on UER were going to have a little get-together there for Halloween, and either the police found out or they were tipped off by some other thing and well long story short, a bunch of squad cars showed up around the place and caught a bunch of people. Then they welded all the doors shut and put up crazy new fences. And what happened to Stan I don't know, but he's not living there anymore.
So in our defense, No Dynamics, it's not being anal. We're not laying claim to buildings, we're just worried that The Man will take exception to events and shut places down and then NOBODY can appreciate them. It's kinda a stereotype that parties in abandoned buildings are reckless and destructive but eh, I've never seen anything to the contrary, but I'd love to, it'd broaden my horizons a bit.
[last edit 11/1/2005 6:50 PM by Guy With Hat - edited 1 times]
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yokes
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
I aim to misbehave
| | | | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 36 on 11/1/2005 7:22 PM >
| | | | Posted by mortimer
I also don't think a few beer bottles makes the Brickworks any worse off than it already is, as they're easily picked up and/or moved, unlike the (not very good) graffiti, although I don't think you were specifically talking about this case anyway.
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Correct.. I was more thinking about skaters who ruin the aesthetics of outdoor areas as a result of soaping curbs and then riding/sliding them. Essentially, one person's right to enjoy public space ends where another's right begins.
"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water and stupid men." - Richard Nickel |
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oldtimer
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
| | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 37 on 11/2/2005 6:58 AM >
| | | | Posted by No Dynamics
Urban explorers don't have THE RIGHT to how abandoned buildings are dealt with after they're abandoned. |
Yes we do and here's why:
Our high standards ensure that the buildings are left as if no one even entered. Simple.
Your way is to alter them in a non-reversible way.
See the difference?
Who's to say what kind of refuse and decomposition is desirable? Surely you don't mean to ask that with a straight face.
The fact you are not bothered by piles of bottles left behind by rowdy teens defines where your sensibilities lie. Other people ARE bothered by that. Reversing such carnage would require probably industrial waste disposal bins and heavy equipment, power-washing, sandblasting and whatnot to remove all traces of said rowdiness.
You know you needn't go back there to clean up beer bottles if more of your friends were as conscientious as you seem to be. But you rise above them. Also, you'd probably score some hefty return coin for those empties.
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yokes
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
I aim to misbehave
| | | | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 38 on 11/2/2005 12:12 PM >
| | | | Respectfully, oldtimer, there is a difference in this case between moral right (your arguement) and legal right (his arguement).
Posted by oldtimer
Yes we do and here's why:
Our high standards ensure that the buildings are left as if no one even entered. Simple.
Your way is to alter them in a non-reversible way.
See the difference?
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"Great architecture has only two natural enemies: water and stupid men." - Richard Nickel |
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oldtimer
Location: Toronto
Gender: Male
| | Re: Is there an angry guy who lives at the Brickworks?
<Reply # 39 on 11/2/2005 6:26 PM >
| | | | Posted by yokes
Respectfully, oldtimer, there is a difference in this case between moral right (your arguement) and legal right (his arguement). |
Respectfully, (as I sneak a genuine Brickworks brick ® into my glove as I prepare to slap you back Bugs Bunny style) - I meld the moral and legal approaches together all the time.
I believe that if nothing is disturbed, a "No Trespassing" edict is moot. That is, I believe that people who post "No Trespassing" do so to prevent alteration of property, removal of, or the addition of unwanted property (dumping), or to avoid frivolous law suits arising out of someone hurting themselves there. Not simply for a "just because".
It's the old "if a tree falls in the forest and no-one there to hear, is there a sound" argument.
If one or more persons ingress into such property and leave zero trace that they were there, then the "No Trespassing" rule for which it was intended was never breached.
If on the other hand evidence is left behind thanks to rowdy gangs of people with zero empathy for others, then yes indeed the "No Trespassing" implication of the fences and barricades has been violated in precisely the manner that had been intended to prevent. Morally and legally.
[last edit 11/2/2005 6:29 PM by oldtimer - edited 1 times]
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