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 sympathy in chaos
  
Location: Chicago
Gender: Male
 |  |  |  | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 20 on 12/17/2003 4:05 PM >
|  | | | I'm suprised they haven't found someone to host few pages.
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Krenta
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Nope, wasn't me.
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 21 on 12/18/2003 1:10 AM >
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I'd emailed them a while back about hosting it, but never got a response.
They'll be back someday, I'm sure...
Have Speed Graphic, Will Travel. |
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Macsbug
Noble Donor
Location: St. Paul, MN
Gender: Male
Safety First!
| | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 22 on 12/18/2003 1:22 AM >
| | | | Posted by sympathyinchaos
I'm suprised they haven't found someone to host few pages.
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I've been looking through the webarchive (www.archive.org) lately looking for an archived version of their site, which I found, but I cant get to any of the drain expos., or any pictures bigger then tumbnail size to load.
I hope they get a site back up, I remember going to that site years ago, before they had to take it all down.
"Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it." |
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mike-o
Location: Philadelphia
Gender: Male
Wake up little penguin... Penguintopia's open to the public
| | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 23 on 12/21/2003 8:58 PM >
| | | | Posted by Ninjalicious
What I've heard is that trespassing is such a minor offense that if they don't catch you red-handed they won't bother trying to prosecute...
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Posted by kowalski
...Getting busted from your site doesn't have to mean by law enforcement. It can also mean a government or private land-owner finding out that you're documenting their properties and "encouraging trespass" and taking legal action to remove that content.
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like nijalicious mentioned earlier, they won't bother trying to prosecuit for tresspassing, as far as encouraging tresspassing, I'm no lawyer, but I'd figure a case like this would be difficult for the prosecutor, what about freedom of speech/ press?
UER is a great idea and I love the LDB... but this forum sucks my ass. later |
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Carrie@HPA
Location: Stuck in Hell.. Still!
Gender: Female
Death, Distruction and Chaos.. At Your Service.
| |  | | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 24 on 12/23/2003 7:35 AM >
| | | | There's a very easy way around things like that. It's something to the extend of warnings or disclaimers, basiclly saying "For Entertainment purposes" or "We at (name) take no legal responcibility for any actions you might do after viewing this website, we do not encourage you to visit (said location) without proper legel access".
Now they can't do anything to you. For example Dumb-kid-down-the-road desides to go break into (blah location) and gets caught, tries to blame you. They'll view the site see the warning/disclaimer and nothing can be done. It's the same way those tele-psychics do it. Deny all legal responcibility.
Yes, I'm a bitch but we all knew that.
~*Carrie*~ Co-Founder Haunted Pennsylvania "Because we'll put a boot in your ass, it's the American way" |
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Capone
Location: London, Ontario
Gender: Male
UEL
| | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 25 on 12/23/2003 7:56 AM >
| | | | Posted by Carrie @ Haunted Pennsylvania
There's a very easy way around things like that. It's something to the extend of warnings or disclaimers, basiclly saying "For Entertainment purposes" or "We at (name) take no legal responcibility for any actions you might do after viewing this website, we do not encourage you to visit (said location) without proper legel access".
Now they can't do anything to you. For example Dumb-kid-down-the-road desides to go break into (blah location) and gets caught, tries to blame you. They'll view the site see the warning/disclaimer and nothing can be done. It's the same way those tele-psychics do it. Deny all legal responcibility.
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Heh, indeed... I have a small disclaimer up on UEL. "We don't encourage trespassing, don't do this yourself, etc etc". I'm thinking of putting this up though, (more for the humour value than anything):
"This site (UEL) does not encourage illegal trespassing or lawbreaking in any way, shape, or form. Abandoned buildings and drains can be extremely dangerous. Do NOT attempt to imitate what you see on this site. UEL (as a group), it's affliates, associates, members, the site owner(s), the domain provider, and the host; take NO responsibility for any arrest, fines, injury, loss of life, or ANY other consequences incurred, should you choose to imitate this site in diference of this warning. We will NOT be held accountable for your actions, and will NOT be held liable for anything you choose to do after viewing this website. Furthermore, do not believe everything you read and/or see. The actions on this site (namely: "urban exploring" - involving the act of enterance to abandoned property and/or structure(s), sometimes without prior consent of the owner(s), ie; trespassing); portrayed through both written (text) and visual (photographic) means, did NOT actually take place. All photographs are staged and/or modified, and all text is false. This site is for entertainment purposes ONLY."
[last edit 12/23/2003 7:58 AM by Capone - edited 1 times]
So there I was, in this creepy old hallway... |
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HauntedPA
 
Location: Anywhere and Everywhere
Gender: Female
What do you mean the rum is gone?!
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 26 on 12/23/2003 11:12 PM >
| | | | Posted by Capone
Heh, indeed... I have a small disclaimer up on UEL. "We don't encourage trespassing, don't do this yourself, etc etc". I'm thinking of putting this up though, (more for the humour value than anything):
"This site (UEL) does not encourage illegal trespassing or lawbreaking in any way, shape, or form. Abandoned buildings and drains can be extremely dangerous. Do NOT attempt to imitate what you see on this site. UEL (as a group), it's affliates, associates, members, the site owner(s), the domain provider, and the host; take NO responsibility for any arrest, fines, injury, loss of life, or ANY other consequences incurred, should you choose to imitate this site in diference of this warning. We will NOT be held accountable for your actions, and will NOT be held liable for anything you choose to do after viewing this website. Furthermore, do not believe everything you read and/or see. The actions on this site (namely: "urban exploring" - involving the act of enterance to abandoned property and/or structure(s), sometimes without prior consent of the owner(s), ie; trespassing); portrayed through both written (text) and visual (photographic) means, did NOT actually take place. All photographs are staged and/or modified, and all text is false. This site is for entertainment purposes ONLY."
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Wow..that's a long winded one.
We've got a few things our site that are "in/on the way" of certain locations. If you miss the red and blue flashy lights with the bright yellow type you're just an idiot and shouldn't be doing anything near the places anyways!
Sample of one such warning:
If you say you didn't see that you're truely "short bus special"
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White Rabbit
Women's Advocate
Location: Missouri
Gender: Male
| | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 27 on 12/24/2003 12:38 AM >
|  | | | Speaking of humorous disclaimers... here's the one that's been on my site since it went up:
It's hard for me to write this disclaimer, because I really don't want to come off as a hypocrite. Unfortunately, thanks to our sue-happy culture, I need to have more covering my ass than my fluffy cotton tail. So, with that said:
Just because I do something stupid, doesn't mean you need to do it, too. Many of the features listed on this site can be extremely hazardous. Adding to that, many of the features are also on private property, which means you could be ticketed or arrested if you go there.
I've been urban exploring since I was just a kid (although we called it trespassing back then), but the world is very different place now. People have a much different outlook since September 11th. Because of that, urban exploring in places like skyscrapers, dams, or government buildings is much riskier than it once was. Also, you can run into some scary people in these places (drug dealers, vagrants, etc), people that might want to do you harm. You might never meet anyone, much less anyone dangerous, but believe that it could happen. Just use common sense and be aware that each place you go may carry a different set of potential consequences.
In closing, I'm not responsible for you. I would never tell anyone not to go out and urban explore, but I sure as hell didn't tell you to do it either. So if you get maimed, killed, or thrown in jail, don't come crying to me with a subpoena because it's not my fault.
I don't have any goddamn money anyway.
--WR
Underground Ozarks http://www.undergroundozarks.com
Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas |
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kowalski
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 28 on 12/25/2003 9:00 PM >
| | | | Denying responsibility has very flimsy legal support.
Keep in mind that we live in societies that are moving towards strengthening legal enforcement of shared responsibility in areas such as drunk driving and product liability. You can say whatever you like about how you're not encouraging trespass or whatever, but by documenting places in a publically accessible medium such as the web, you open yourself up to accusations that you are not only encouraging trespass, but that you are aiding/abetting that action, which was basically the crux of the RTA desist action against SydClan ["Your actions may also constitute aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring of prohibited activity contrary to applicable criminal statutes, for which there are serious consequences including indictment, conviction and punishment as a principal offender."]. Now, this was in New South Wales, which has stricter and more precise legal prohibitions against illegal entry into confined spaces than is the case in North America. But the basic crux of the legal argument applies here as well, and no disclaimer is going to protect you against the levelling of legal action where there is a will on the part of the property owner or government authority.
I'm not trying to fearmonger or suggest that people should be taking their websites down (mine will be launching within a couple of weeks). I'm just saying we're stupid to have our heads in the sand on these issues. Because eventually, someone, somewhere in the U.S. or Canada is going to get hit with the full arm of the law for something, probably in some connection with terrorism fears or legislation. Everyone's been surprisingly lucky so far. That won't last indefinitely. As this community becomes more visible, more authorities are going to take notice, and someone's going to be a real hardass and strike back hard. There have already been some close calls (especially Chicago).
Disclaimers also can't stop someone from filing against you in civil court, or threatening to do so, as occurred with Sydclan. I'm very sure that they also had some sort of disclaimer on their site. Regardless of whether they *really* have a case or not, regardless of whether your disclaimer is worth anything, they can file, they can force you to show up in court with a lawyer and probably force you to go through the whole hearing. And that's assuming you can eventually win, which isn't a given by any stretch of the imagination.
Private Landowner or Government Agency = Lots of funds to throw at "the problem"
Urban explorer = Guy/gal with bills to pay, schooling to fund or family to support who doesn't generally have free cash floating around to put up a legal defense against a challenge to their web site, let alone pay the penalties if the challenge is successful.
Imagine if the TTC sued Ninjalicious for damages related to the increased policing costs associated with keeping people out of Lower Bay because of his publicizing the station and the way in on Infiltration.
Imagine if vandals hit some building hard and the property owner found out that you had documented the structure extensively on your website. They might sue you for damages related to the cost of repairs.
Imagine if some kid gets themselves killed somewhere and the parents can prove through their computer's cache or whatever that the kid learned about the place through your website. Your disclaimer is not going to stop them from suing if they really want to, and it may very well not be sufficient to prevent you from losing.
Even if you win, if the judge/jury rules without prejudice, you might very well still be subject to your share of court costs.
Keep in mind also that if your site is hosted somewhere other than on your own server, you're not the only defendant, and most commercial hosts are quick to dump anyone who they get cease and desisted about. If you have your own server, the company who provides your pipe can be C&D'd. I'm not saying that the grounds can be sufficient, I'm saying that determined parties will C&D anyone associated with providing your content to the internet at large if they want to shut you down. And very few companies are in a position to back you up.
The point in all this is to keep an open mind about the legal pitfalls of what we're doing. Don't discount these possibilities. They're real, they're serious, and I suspect we're going to see them played out somewhere in the years to come.
[last edit 12/25/2003 9:06 PM by kowalski - edited 1 times]
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HauntedPA
Location: Anywhere and Everywhere
Gender: Female
What do you mean the rum is gone?!
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 29 on 12/26/2003 2:27 AM >
| | | | Well I'm not quite sure how things are run in Canada, but in the states it's not exactly something that's easy to prosecute against. Having a disclaimer that says that you in no way, shape or form endorse or encourage people to trespass or go to the locations makes it hard to say that you were to blame. The person that physically went out despite such a disclaimer is acting on their own behalf.
Now mind you if there were things like specific directions to locations or detailed descriptions of how to physically get into places, you may be in trouble for that one.
I see in no way how you can be held liable for the actions of others once you have told them (sometimes in several places) that you do not encourage, endorse or advise they go to the locations. They would need some other kind of proof that you directly told them to go there. After all you didn't hold a gun to their head and tell them to. (if you did...you need some serious therapy)
For example: If you go to a hockey game. On the backs of every ticket there is a disclaimer that takes the responsibility of injury solely upon the ticket holder. They cannot sue the team, league, stadium or anyone else because of that. It holds up in court as there have been many instances where people do get hit by flying pucks, broken glass, ect.
Now a disclaimer on a website has the same weight and measure as that does. For instance, if you choose to not ignore the disclaimer on the ticket then you don't go to the game. If you choose to ignore the disclaimer on a website you forfeit your rights since it is there and very easily proven that the disclaimer is there. (as long as it is highly visible...having a link to a page with a disclaimer is probably not the best thing to have)
In a civil court all you would have to do is provide proof that you have a visible disclaimer on a site. That should be enough leverage there to have the case thrown out. If you win the case or it is thrown you do not have to pay any court charges. The only time that you do have to pay is for certain motions to be filed, counter-sueing or if you lose.
On the wrongful death bit. I don't see how posting pictures of places can be the cause of death. If someone decides to go into a location and they die there it's more the owners of the property in question's fault than the website, zine or other place they may have heard about it. I mean that's like saying because you eat too much red meat and then die of a heart attack that it's the meat producers fault. It's not. It's your own.
Basically what it boils down to is that the posting of images and even giving names to locations is not enough to warrant criminal charges being brought against you. If you have things that are sensative enough that the government is going to come after you, then you need to rethink what you're doing.
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Capone
Location: London, Ontario
Gender: Male
UEL
| | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 30 on 12/26/2003 3:24 AM >
| | | | I can see where you're coming from kowalski, but I also agree with HauntedPA. For example my site has a disclaimer as I stated, and we make it policy that although we will in most cases give whatever location it's real name, we do not provide addresses, driving directions, entrance info, or anything else along those lines. I would assume with all that, you're pretty safe. I have to agree though that you're far more succeptible to getting in trouble over going to sensitive locations (which we at UEL stay away from altogether), or for some dumbass kid hurting himself, than you are for simple trespassing to some random old abandoned building like what constitutes the majority of places on most people's sites.
[last edit 12/26/2003 3:26 AM by Capone - edited 1 times]
So there I was, in this creepy old hallway... |
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El_Gordo_Uno
Location: Wenatchee, Washington
Gender: Male
This post brought to you by Allan Smithee
| |  | | | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 31 on 12/26/2003 9:38 AM >
| | | | Listen I'm not trying to bad mouth anyone posting here but I wouldn't listen to these arm chair lawyers. If you want the real deal contact a REAL LAWYER.
Why trust Joe Blow forum goer when you can either ask the police or a lawyer. Both of whom know what there talking about.
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges |
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HauntedPA
Location: Anywhere and Everywhere
Gender: Female
What do you mean the rum is gone?!
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 32 on 12/26/2003 10:34 AM >
| | | | Posted by El_Gordo_Uno
Listen I'm not trying to bad mouth anyone posting here but I wouldn't listen to these arm chair lawyers. If you want the real deal contact a REAL LAWYER.
Why trust Joe Blow forum goer when you can either ask the police or a lawyer. Both of whom know what there talking about.
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Well police don't exactly know everything either. Although you do have a point there. Asking a lawyer would be the best route to go if you were looking for a serious inquiry into the matter. I just speak from experience with similar matters is all.
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HauntedPA
Location: Anywhere and Everywhere
Gender: Female
What do you mean the rum is gone?!
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 34 on 12/31/2003 12:19 PM >
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Interesting, but what does naked chicks dancing on bars have to do with this thread?
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stealthy
You got a problem bro?
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 35 on 12/31/2003 12:29 PM >
| | | | Posted by HauntedPA
Interesting, but what does naked chicks dancing on bars have to do with this thread?
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She got busted from her website, and the title of this thread is "Getting Busted from your website"
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HauntedPA
Location: Anywhere and Everywhere
Gender: Female
What do you mean the rum is gone?!
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 36 on 12/31/2003 4:15 PM >
| | | | Posted by stealthy
She got busted from her website, and the title of this thread is "Getting Busted from your website"
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True enough although that's a different kind of scenario all together. Much more complex issues there to deal with.
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Chikote
This member has been banned
I R NO SPEL RITE
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 37 on 12/31/2003 11:32 PM >
|  | | | One way round this is to say that even though you own the website, you are not responsible for it's content. IE you aren't the one that goes off tresspassing and taking photos, you are just the webmaster.
They can't do much to prove that you are lying, especially if you put a disclaimer on your website.
Dear Chasey Lain, I wrote to explain, I'm your biggest fan, I just wanted to ask; Could I eat your ass? Write back as soon as you can. |
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ichitect
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 38 on 1/15/2004 4:22 PM >
| | | | The Jinx guys in NYC were filmed climbing the Brooklyn Bridge for a UE special on the fucking Discovery channel (if I'm not mistaken) wearing nothing but Agent Smith suits and sunglasses to conceal their identities. They run a web design company under the same name, and even have a book out. In one chapter, they identify my business partner (an occasional tag-along) by the nickname he uses on his own portfolio site (the URL to which is his full name), describe his appearance, nationality, place of origin, everything. And no problems.
So I wouldn't worry about it unless you do something exceedingly criminal while exploring, i.e. burglary, arson, etc.
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Lunis
Location: Durham Region
Gender: Male
Oh The Pleasures of Camo
| | Re: Getting busted from your website?
<Reply # 39 on 1/16/2004 6:10 PM >
| | | | another thing people (some) do is post Hey lets go tonight or give a date of when they will go..Don't do that, thats just stupid and you would think that, thats an obvious faux-pas but read some of the threads and you'll see how many people do it!
Keep Searching
Lunis
back from a long break |
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