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1 2 3   UER Forum > Archived Canada: Ontario > Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission (Viewed 1989 times) Air  Location: Canada  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 20 on 7/30/2007 4:33 AM >   Posted by Voodoo Just out of curiousity, what is the nature of the misalignment problem at TPC and Rankine? Is it with the shafts from the turbines to the generators? Eugene Its the penstocks, apparently the walls have shifted more then anticipated (which is why TPC closed in 1974) and why Rankine was closed earlier last year too. It was originally supposed to provide power till 2009. "The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist kowalski   |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 21 on 7/30/2007 4:39 AM >   Posted by Air 33 Its the penstocks, apparently the walls have shifted more then anticipated (which is why TPC closed in 1974) and why Rankine was closed earlier last year too. It was originally supposed to provide power till 2009. I'm sorry, I don't want to have to contradict you here, but it is in fact the turbine shafts that have become misaligned, as Voodoo guessed, and not the penstocks. Air  Location: Canada  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 22 on 7/30/2007 4:48 AM >   Posted by kowalski I'm sorry, I don't want to have to contradict you here, but it is in fact the turbine shafts that have become misaligned, as Voodoo guessed, and not the penstocks. For tpc as well? "The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist kowalski   |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 23 on 7/30/2007 10:51 AM >   Yes, it was the same problem in both plants. The misalignment of the turbine shafts ultimately gets beyond what they can fix with bearings. Voodoo  Gender: Male  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 24 on 7/31/2007 11:22 AM >   I thought that might be it. Thanks for the details, folks. (Strangely enough, I design lubricants for similar bearings...) (And thanks for all the great photos from your expeditions to TPC, too!) Voodoo Air  Location: Canada  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 25 on 8/1/2007 12:07 AM >   Posted by Voodoo I thought that might be it. Thanks for the details, folks. (Strangely enough, I design lubricants for similar bearings...) (And thanks for all the great photos from your expeditions to TPC, too!) Voodoo So does that mean that the bearings can't be replaced..? I'm just curious from a non-mechanical standpoint. "The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist Voodoo  Gender: Male  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 26 on 8/1/2007 11:31 AM >   Not knowing enough about the layout of the plant (and details about the design of the bearings) I can't be sure -- I'm a lowly chemist, not an engineer. Either the need to replace the bearings for this reason was not anticipated (possible), or the replacement would be a very complicated job that wasn't justified, given that the plants were old, small (by today's standards), produced 25 cycle power (according to some sources), etc. At Rankine, at least, there seem to be shafts from the generator hall right down to the bottom that might allow access for a job like this. I'm less sure at TPC -- One of Air 33s pictures shows a deep open shaft, but I don't know enough about the plant layout to place it. Voodoo Air  Location: Canada  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 27 on 8/1/2007 11:19 PM >   Posted by Voodoo Not knowing enough about the layout of the plant (and details about the design of the bearings) I can't be sure -- I'm a lowly chemist, not an engineer. Either the need to replace the bearings for this reason was not anticipated (possible), or the replacement would be a very complicated job that wasn't justified, given that the plants were old, small (by today's standards), produced 25 cycle power (according to some sources), etc. At Rankine, at least, there seem to be shafts from the generator hall right down to the bottom that might allow access for a job like this. I'm less sure at TPC -- One of Air 33s pictures shows a deep open shaft, but I don't know enough about the plant layout to place it. Voodoo Hi Voodoo, the shafts are similar. I have one here of Rankine, First And Second However in TPC the shafts that go all the way down to the wheelpit are only easy accessible because this is where the generators were: "The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist Voodoo  Gender: Male  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 28 on 8/2/2007 2:27 AM >   What about the "toilet seat" photo? I've got a reasonably good grasp of the internal layout of TPC from the pictures that have been posted of the various expeditions, but I have to admit that I haven't been able to fit that photo into my overall mental picture of the plant. Does/did that shaft go all the way to the upper generator hall, or did it finish on the level below? Voodoo Voodoo  Gender: Male  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 29 on 8/2/2007 2:35 AM >   Also, looking at the TPC shaft photo, the generators used to sit on top of the two concrete blocks with the arches, right? (On the round, slightly raised concrete platforms?) Assuming this is so, the original floor of the generator hall between the two generators looks like it was removable. Perhaps it rested on the brackets that stick out from the sides of the concrete block? This would allow access to the wheelpit. There is/was an overhead crane on that side, wasn't there? Mind you, I'm just guessing from the pictures... Voodoo micro  Gender: Male Slowly I turned  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 30 on 8/2/2007 3:45 AM >   Posted by Voodoo Also, looking at the TPC shaft photo, the generators used to sit on top of the two concrete blocks with the arches, right? (On the round, slightly raised concrete platforms?) Assuming this is so, the original floor of the generator hall between the two generators looks like it was removable. Perhaps it rested on the brackets that stick out from the sides of the concrete block? This would allow access to the wheelpit. There is/was an overhead crane on that side, wasn't there? Mind you, I'm just guessing from the pictures... Voodoo That's right. There were grated panels in some places that could have been removed if it was necessary to haul equipment in or out of the wheelpit. The bottom photo that Air posted shows where one of the panels originally rested. Rankine has a similar arrangement. Air  Location: Canada  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 31 on 8/2/2007 12:01 PM >   Posted by Voodoo What about the "toilet seat" photo? I've got a reasonably good grasp of the internal layout of TPC from the pictures that have been posted of the various expeditions, but I have to admit that I haven't been able to fit that photo into my overall mental picture of the plant. Does/did that shaft go all the way to the upper generator hall, or did it finish on the level below? Voodoo You mean this... This was at the far end of the plant, and It started from the first sub-level down. From what I saw it also went down to the depth of the wheelpit. I'm not entirely sure what it was used for, but there was no generator above it. It wasent visible the first time I went (in May 2006) due to mist when there was still water running through the plant. My best guess was another access down because it had a dodgy winding platform going all the way down. [last edit 8/2/2007 12:03 PM by Air - edited 1 times] "The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist Voodoo  Gender: Male  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 32 on 8/3/2007 12:58 AM >   Posted by Air 33 You mean this... Yep, that's the one. I've been able to fit most of the photos into my overall mental picture of the plant (the cross-section on Vanishing point helps a lot), although there are gaps, but that one defeated me. When you mean the far end of the plant, do you mean far end away from the falls, or towards it? Another TPC question - The brick room (rooms?) with the slot in the floor, from where the tailrace was accessed. Is there any indication of what the original purpose/function of this room was? Some of the tailrace photos show a slot in the side wall of the tunnel -- is this in any way connected with the access slot? (I'm thinking of the slots in the side walls being for a vertical gate or stop logs or similar that could be lowered from above to block the tunnel). Are these two features in the same place, or have I done a 2 + 2 = 6? Voodoo kowalski   |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 33 on 8/3/2007 1:42 AM >   Posted by Voodoo Another TPC question - The brick room (rooms?) with the slot in the floor, from where the tailrace was accessed. Is there any indication of what the original purpose/function of this room was? Some of the tailrace photos show a slot in the side wall of the tunnel -- is this in any way connected with the access slot? (I'm thinking of the slots in the side walls being for a vertical gate or stop logs or similar that could be lowered from above to block the tunnel). Are these two features in the same place, or have I done a 2 + 2 = 6? Air wouldn't be able to tell you that from experience, she's never been down there. That said, you've guessed correctly on the slots, they were there to permit the lowering of stop logs. If you'd like, you can e-mail me directly with any other questions you have about these wheelpits. Air  Location: Canada  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 34 on 8/3/2007 5:18 PM >   Posted by kowalski Air wouldn't be able to tell you that from experience, she's never been down there. That said, you've guessed correctly on the slots, they were there to permit the lowering of stop logs. If you'd like, you can e-mail me directly with any other questions you have about these wheelpits. Again, I'm gonna state that I'm not going to get drawn into an argument with you, but I'm not sure why you keep rebutting the majority of my posts since you've been unbanned, but this one is just silly. Your not the only one with info on the plant, and as I stated clearly it was an estimate on my part as I did see almost all the way down. And how would you know with absolute accuracy, one way or another whether i was there or not? I'll let you know for future reference that I don't post all my exploits online and I have gotten information about what's down there from other people who have been down there themselves, as there's a number of people here who have been down there - myself exculded. [last edit 8/3/2007 5:19 PM by Air - edited 2 times] "The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist kowalski   |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 35 on 8/3/2007 6:22 PM >   Posted by Air 33 I'll let you know for future reference that I don't post all my exploits online and I have gotten information about what's down there from other people who have been down there themselves, as there's a number of people here who have been down there - myself exculded. My position is simply that the people with firsthand knowledge can speak well-enough for themselves. While I occasionally do step into something I don't have the entire facts about and say something factually mistaken (see recent thread about G-CANS, which I respectively bowed out of when proven wrong), I generally try to avoid pushing inferences in a thread like this one, especially when I know there are other people here who know and have seen more than I have. I know that this will never be adopted as doctrine on UER, land of a thousand opinions, but when it comes to factual matters of engineering, history and topology, I'd like to think that discretion is the better part of valour. It may piss you off to be corrected on something of such factual obviousness as the engineering differences between drive shafts and penstocks, but it pisses me off to watch someone with a less than ideal amount of direct experience with these structures and a proven track record of playing fast and loose with information feed an interested third party a murky blend of facts and inferences. While your aggressive interest in topics such as the Niagara plants is appreciated, it would be perfectly acceptable to sit out from a conversation like this one occasionally and just learn something, rather than pretending to be an expert. Similarly, your interest in drains would be a lot more compelling if it was clear that you had actually explored any before you decided you'd join the community of drainers not by getting underground yourself, but rather by actively commenting on other people's exploits. Now I would have loved to have had this little exchange by private message, but you decided to do this in public and so it shall be. Moderators are more than encouraged to delete both posts if it would so please them. Voodoo: I got your e-mail this morning, but didn't have time to reply. You'll hear from me this evening. mcrae44  Gender: Male  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 36 on 8/3/2007 11:12 PM >   imo, voodoo had questions and Air was the only one to try and answer. good job, Air good job kowalski for adding more information to the answers. Some people are like slinkies - They don't serve a purpose, but they bring a smile to your face when you push them down stairs Air  Location: Canada  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 37 on 8/4/2007 7:37 PM >   Posted by kowalski My position is simply that the people with firsthand knowledge can speak well-enough for themselves. While I occasionally do step into something I don't have the entire facts about and say something factually mistaken (see recent thread about G-CANS, which I respectively bowed out of when proven wrong), I generally try to avoid pushing inferences in a thread like this one, especially when I know there are other people here who know and have seen more than I have. I know that this will never be adopted as doctrine on UER, land of a thousand opinions, but when it comes to factual matters of engineering, history and topology, I'd like to think that discretion is the better part of valour. Life is too short to argue with you, particularly when you do it with such fervor with hints of malcontent. Incase you have forgotten this is a message board system where people ask questions, provide said info and exchange info. I've never pretended to be an expert on anything (in much the way you have), but I generally try to be helpful to people on here when I do have knowledge of something. You generally don't need to be a bona-fide expert on subjects to comment on them, and people generally discuss things to learn more about them. This isent a strict peer review journal system, and people disagree all the time but its supposed to be a collegial, informative and friendly exchange. Your motivations are not as you portray them as. Voodoo asked this question a while back and nobody responded. This thread is quite old and you could have responded to it had you wanted to be helpful but you only did after I did, pointing out not only that I was wrong - which you could have done by just providing the information as is, but you didn't. Not that it matters but did you sit around waiting for me to respond so you could pounce? Part 1 Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 19 on July 26th, 2007, 10:29 PM > Posted on Forum: UER Forum | Reply with Quote Posted by Air 33 Rankine was just shut down last year, although I don't know the specific time. They have no intention of starting it up again, because there is a mis-alignment problem (just like TPC had), which is why it was shut down earlier then had been planned. It will be transfered from Fortis to Niagara Parks who have no idea what they will do with it in late 2008. Just out of curiousity, what is the nature of the misalignment problem at TPC and Rankine? Is it with the shafts from the turbines to the generators? Eugene Part 2 Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 20 on July 29th, 2007, 11:33 PM > Its the penstocks, apparently the walls have shifted more then anticipated (which is why TPC closed in 1974) and why Rankine was closed earlier last year too. It was originally supposed to provide power till 2009. Part 3 <Reply # 21 on July 29th, 2007, 11:39 PM > Posted on Forum: UER Forum | Reply with Quote I'm sorry, I don't want to have to contradict you here, but it is in fact the turbine shafts that have become misaligned, as Voodoo guessed, and not the penstocks. It only took 6 minutes for you to respond to me! You don't share your knowledge around here freely. You make quip comments to people when you do, and now instead of helping the lurkers how have bowed out of this thread understand what were talking about in the first place you offered up info via PM. Voodoo asked for some photographs and I provided them, he specifically asked about the toilet one (which I called such) on flickr so he was directing his questions at me. What knowledge you do have you control and you have a total inability to share such said info. That's fine when were talking about access points, but if your a said/professed expert in something, don't just say so, and constantly remind people how ignorant they are, show them with your knowledge. It may piss you off to be corrected on something of such factual obviousness as the engineering differences between drive shafts and penstocks, but it pisses me off to watch someone with a less than ideal amount of direct experience with these structures and a proven track record of playing fast and loose with information feed an interested third party a murky blend of facts and inferences. While your aggressive interest in topics such as the Niagara plants is appreciated, it would be perfectly acceptable to sit out from a conversation like this one occasionally and just learn something, rather than pretending to be an expert. No it doesn't piss me off to be corrected about matters, its called learning. What I don't like is when you seemingly set your sites on me and try to call me out for being wholly ignorant about things. I don't have the time or inclination to argue with about this, but don't think for a minute I'm gonna sit back and take such shit from you. You have another agenda at work here and I've seen you do this with other people as well, and I think you've gotten to heart of 'problem' below. Also I don't have an aggressive interest in the Niagara plants, but a significant interest in hydro generation and infrastructure. If you'd like to remind people you've been doing this longer then me, feel free to do so, but don't sit back, wait for me to respond to someone and then make statements that I wouldn't know from first hand experience -- when you have never even spoken with me by email, PM, IM or otherwise. You don't know everything about me so don't even think for a second that I'm gonna let you make such implications about me. I have spoken with others who have been down there (not you) and I trust their judgment. I might have been interested in speaking with you about it, but frankly your arrogance about things which you have knowledge about is not something I'd like to deal with when I start learning about something. There are other people who know about these spaces, and they share their knowledge and also first hand experience freely. I also too have a library card and can use google. Similarly, your interest in drains would be a lot more compelling if it was clear that you had actually explored any before you decided you'd join the community of drainers not by getting underground yourself, but rather by actively commenting on other people's exploits. I didn't realize a interest of mine had to compelling to you to be valid, but oh well. Don't play stupid either, you were the moderator of the drainers board when I emailed you and ask you to add me because I was new and wanted to learn more. It was no secret. You never asked me anything and added me a few days later. Both you and a friend of yours who I'll leave nameless have stated many times that I shouldn't be there, and that I should keep my opinions to myself. I'll also note its just you, the majority of active users on that forum have been nothing but helpful, and I wouldn't even know about the board if it wasn't for dsankt. Everyone starts somewhere, just like you did during opex '94 when you apperantly popped a manhole for the first time. I also comment on other people's exploits because its a cordial thing to do, and I find what they do to be interesting. I have indeed been underground, and just because it hasent been too often I'm not feeling totally guilt ridden. I wouldn't know anything about this area if it wasen't for dsankt shooting me a few links and speaking with a more helpful drainer friend of yours. I'm not asking for handouts here, but you never offered any advice to me, and someone else tipped me to predators approach document. So yeah, your not the only source of info here. Now I would have loved to have had this little exchange by private message, but you decided to do this in public and so it shall be. Moderators are more than encouraged to delete both posts if it would so please them. Your hostile responses to me where public, so I responded as such. I don't have a problem having this discussion in public. Its somewhat personal, but I'd rather it was stated here and then people can make their respective judgments about both us how they see fit. You've also made all your quips at me publically and just so everyone knows we have never met in person, spoke in anyway online either. Your the one that's aggressive with me and you have been since you returned. If you have personal problems with me, what i visit and document and what I take an interest in I honestly can care less, but I've made myself pretty clear here and will not be roped into more 'debates' with you as you have a clear history of doing this with others and I enjoy my time here otherwise. Note: I'd rather the mods keep this post here even though its deviated from the original post. "The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist kowalski   |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 38 on 8/5/2007 3:32 AM >   Posted by Air 33 Life is too short to argue with you. The length of your reply would seem to contradict this. People disagree all the time but its supposed to be a collegial, informative and friendly exchange. I shouldn't have to remind you that you're the one who got upset here. That I've been having to correct a number of posts you've made in the past week or so is a product of you writing about a bunch of things I know about, and not evidence of a campaign waged against you. While as mentioned before I raise my ample eyebrows at the prolific way you present yourself here, I'm not targeting you. I think I even originally apologized for having to jump into this thread by correcting you. Voodoo asked this question a while back and nobody responded. This thread is quite old and you could have responded to it had you wanted to be helpful Voodoo asked his question a week ago. I didn't reply in the subsequent four days between his question and your reply because I had a busy four days. As for the thread, you're correct that its old --- I was banned when it was originally posted. I'm not even sure why this conversation was occurring in this thread at all, since it has nothing to do with Mcrae's abortive trip into the gorge, but that was Voodoo's choice. did you sit around waiting for me to respond so you could pounce? It only took 6 minutes for you to respond to me! Yes, that must have been it. I waited for four days with the foreknowledge that you would come in and say that it was the penstocks that were out of alignment (something that could be corrected comparatively easily with some sheet steel and a welding torch]. Who am I, Moriarty? But clearly what I should have done was left your incorrect post in place for several hours or days before I addressed your error, during which time all manner of readers could misinform themselves about the nature of the mechanical problems with these plants. But no, then you'd have had a problem with me not sharing the information I knew. now instead of helping the lurkers how have bowed out of this thread understand what were talking about in the first place you offered up info via PM. Well, I was actually trying to end a bunch of unnecessary Q&A back-and-forth in a thread that it had very little to do with and which should have been buried long ago. Unfortunately that lofty goal was short-circuited by your need to object to my (correct) statement that you don't know enough about this area to be the one answering every question. Despite the fact that I'm correcting you again, and thus clearly continuing my vendetta, you've guilted me into responding to another thing you're mistaken about, for the benefit of all the lurkers who care deeply about the layout of the TPC wheelpit: There is no "dodgy winding platform going all the way down" the southernmost well of the wheelpit, rather there are a series of intermediate levels with floor sections/catwalks surrounding it, connected at that end of the plant by a caged emergency ladder. What knowledge you do have you control and you have a total inability to share such said info. I have a highly-developed ability to share information. See my website. I've also shared plenty of information about the layout of this particular plant with various interested parties, including Stoop and JD before they came over and did their much-aggregated trip into the tailrace with dsankt. But if you're expecting me to preemptively make a big thread where I tell you and anyone else who's interested every scrap of information I know or can look up about these facilities, you're being a bit absurd. Most of it is pretty irrelevant, and some of it should just have been seen first-hand by those people with the composure and drive to get down into that wheelpit when it was possible. It's not going to change the lives of those that didn't get down there, and I feel no compulsion to tell people about it unless they ask me. But if you really want to know what I've told Voodoo by e-mail, here it is in a nutshell: -- There was one sequence of stairs into the Toronto wheelpit, plus some emergency ladders and the long-inoperable elevator. -- The slot rooms were for lowering stoplogs into the tailraces. -- That's the entrance to one of the slot rooms in my avatar at left. -- The construction shaft and drift that was used during construction of the TPC tailrace are not evident within the finished tailrace. Clearly a collection of very essential information I should have taken it upon myself to make a thread about or at least e-mailed to you long ago. Everyone starts somewhere, just like you did during opex '94 when you apperantly popped a manhole for the first time. Yes, after I'd been walking in and out of plenty of drains for more than a year before that. Nobody helped me the first time I walked (waded) into a drain, I just went and did it. Someone else tipped me to predators approach document. So yeah, your not the only source of info here. Given that Predator's Approach to Draining is on the websites of both Infiltration and the Sydney Cave Clan, I didn't realize that anyone had to tip you off to its existence, nor that it was my responsibility to do so. My apologies. Air  Location: Canada  |  Re: Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission <Reply # 39 on 8/8/2007 7:14 AM >   Posted by kowalski The length of your reply would seem to contradict this. It's best to make one self clear, that's all. Yes, that must have been it. I waited for four days with the foreknowledge that you would come in and say that it was the penstocks that were out of alignment (something that could be corrected comparatively easily with some sheet steel and a welding torch]. Who am I, Moriarty? No it was just great timing. And as I said before, if you did want to share your knowledge further you were free to do so on the thread not via PM as you did with voodoo as I'm sure other interested readers were curious what we were talking about. Well, I was actually trying to end a bunch of unnecessary Q&A back-and-forth in a thread that it had very little to do with and which should have been buried long ago. Unfortunately that lofty goal was short-circuited by your need to object to my (correct) statement that you don't know enough about this area to be the one answering every question. The questions were directed at me, in relation to photos I took there. We've had arguments about TPC before, most notably about the suspended walkway platforms which I merely took an educated guess on a few months ago. And, my point which was somehow missed by you was you shouldn't make 100% certain assumptions about me and where I have been. I could have just as well been down there, which I wasn't...but I have spoken with people who have so I'm NOT stabbing around the dark here as you first implied. And, I though it was a bold statement to make considering we've never spoken. Despite the fact that I'm correcting you again, and thus clearly continuing my vendetta, you've guilted me into responding to another thing you're mistaken about, for the benefit of all the lurkers who care deeply about the layout of the TPC wheelpit: There is no "dodgy winding platform going all the way down" the southernmost well of the wheelpit, rather there are a series of intermediate levels with floor sections/catwalks surrounding it, connected at that end of the plant by a caged emergency ladder. I've also shared plenty of information about the layout of this particular plant with various interested parties, including Stoop and JD before they came over and did their much-aggregated trip into the tailrace with dsankt. But if you're expecting me to preemptively make a big thread where I tell you and anyone else who's interested every scrap of information I know or can look up about these facilities, you're being a bit absurd. Most of it is pretty irrelevant, and some of it should just have been seen first-hand by those people with the composure and drive to get down into that wheelpit when it was possible. It's not going to change the lives of those that didn't get down there, and I feel no compulsion to tell people about it unless they ask me. Clearly a collection of very essential information I should have taken it upon myself to make a thread about or at least e-mailed to you long ago. I wasn't asking for handouts, so don't make it sound that way. I wasn't joking either when I said I had a library card. As for your previous comment about getting down into the wheelpit, its as usual snippy. Yes, after I'd been walking in and out of plenty of drains for more than a year before that. Nobody helped me the first time I walked (waded) into a drain, I just went and did it. That was an illustration I was making that you started somewhere too. Criticizing me for commenting on other peoples adventures, particularly across the other side of the world doesn't make me feel less of anything -- because clearly I can't be everywhere all the time. You said also "Similarly, your interest in drains would be a lot more compelling if it was clear that you had actually explored any before you decided you'd join the community of drainers not by getting underground yourself, but rather by actively commenting on other people's exploits." You knew I was new to draining all along because that I indeed did state. If my interest is less compelling because I've discovered it through some of your friends -- so be it. People come to things differently, that doesn't determine their validity. Given that Predator's Approach to Draining is on the websites of both Infiltration and the Sydney Cave Clan, I didn't realize that anyone had to tip you off to its existence, nor that it was my responsibility to do so. My apologies. I was just cleaning the air that for someone to be considered so open and sharing with information as you claim to be, it would have just been nice to receive a little suggestion like this, rather then a verbal thrashing about being a compelling drainer and what not. When you don't know anything about drains in the first place, predators approach is like Swahili to you. ~ "The extraordinary beauty of things that fail." - Heinrich von Kleist UER Forum > Archived Canada: Ontario > Mcrae's tailrace scouting mission (Viewed 1989 times)  1 2 3   All content and images copyright © 2002-2024 UER.CA and respective creators. Graphical Design by Crossfire. 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