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As much as I love the fact I was raised Catholic and still share many of the church's ideals, I feel this kind of shit is exactly against Christ's teachings.
Dear Friends in Christ,
We the People have spoken, and the 44th President of the United States will be Barack Hussein Obama. This election ends a political process that started two years ago and which has revealed deep and bitter divisions within the United States and also within the Catholic Church in the United States. This division is sometimes called a “Culture War,” by which is meant a heated clash between two radically different and incompatible conceptions of how we should order our common life together, the public life that constitutes civil society. And the chief battleground in this culture war for the past 30 years has been abortion, which one side regards as a murderous abomination that cries out to Heaven for vengeance and the other side regards as a fundamental human right that must be protected in laws enforced by the authority of the state. Between these two visions of the use of lethal violence against the unborn there can be no negotiation or conciliation, and now our nation has chosen for its chief executive the most radical pro-abortion politician ever to serve in the United States Senate or to run for president. We must also take note of the fact that this election was effectively decided by the votes of self-described (but not practicing) Catholics, the majority of whom cast their ballots for President-elect Obama.
In response to this, I am obliged by my duty as your shepherd to make two observations:
1. Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil, and those Catholics who do so place themselves outside of the full communion of Christ’s Church and under the judgment of divine law. Persons in this condition should not receive Holy Communion until and unless they are reconciled to God in the Sacrament of Penance, lest they eat and drink their own condemnation.
2. Barack Obama, although we must always and everywhere disagree with him over abortion, has been duly elected the next President of the United States, and after he takes the Oath of Office next January 20th, he will hold legitimate authority in this nation. For this reason, we are obliged by Scriptural precept to pray for him and to cooperate with him whenever conscience does not bind us otherwise. Let us hope and pray that the responsibilities of the presidency and the grace of God will awaken in the conscience of this extraordinarily gifted man an awareness that the unholy slaughter of children in this nation is the greatest threat to the peace and security of the United States and constitutes a clear and present danger to the common good. In the time of President Obama’s service to our country, let us pray for him in the words of a prayer found in the Roman Missal:
God our Father, all earthly powers must serve you. Help our President-elect, Barack Obama, to fulfill his responsibilities worthily and well. By honoring and striving to please you at all times, may he secure peace and freedom for the people entrusted to him. We ask this through Our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God for ever and ever.
Amen.
Father Newman
I thought Christ came to save not the righteous, but the sinner? How is denying people communion going to do that? Before the athiests chime in w/"It's all a fairy tale anyway," keep in mind that the fairy tale forms a great number of your neighbors' consciousness and that priests still have moral authority to some (though they probably shouldn't).
You betcha | |
1- Fairy tale. You covered that so...
2- Priest. Molestation. Google. Put these things together in the approved fashion and it pretty well covers how much "moral authority" we are working with here.
3- 1st Amendment. Protecting this churches freedom of speech and religion. If enough people that worship here disagree with this policy they will likely go find someplace else to worship. just like any other business (except for the lack of taxes, but that is another rant)
4- Race. Did this church do the same thing to Clinton supporters in '92 and '96? Or to folks that voted Hill-Dog in the primary? If not then we see the real problem here...
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Posted by G to the Race
As much as I love the fact I was raised Catholic and still share many of the church's ideals, I feel this kind of shit is exactly against Christ's teachings.
Dear Friends in Christ,
We the People have spoken, and the 44th President of the United States will be Barack Hussein Obama. This election ends a political process that started two years ago and which has revealed deep and bitter divisions within the United States and also within the Catholic Church in the United States. This division is sometimes called a “Culture War,” by which is meant a heated clash between two radically different and incompatible conceptions of how we should order our common life together, the public life that constitutes civil society. And the chief battleground in this culture war for the past 30 years has been abortion, which one side regards as a murderous abomination that cries out to Heaven for vengeance and the other side regards as a fundamental human right that must be protected in laws enforced by the authority of the state. Between these two visions of the use of lethal violence against the unborn there can be no negotiation or conciliation, and now our nation has chosen for its chief executive the most radical pro-abortion politician ever to serve in the United States Senate or to run for president. We must also take note of the fact that this election was effectively decided by the votes of self-described (but not practicing) Catholics, the majority of whom cast their ballots for President-elect Obama.
In response to this, I am obliged by my duty as your shepherd to make two observations:
1. Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil, and those Catholics who do so place themselves outside of the full communion of Christ’s Church and under the judgment of divine law. Persons in this condition should not receive Holy Communion until and unless they are reconciled to God in the Sacrament of Penance, lest they eat and drink their own condemnation.
2. Barack Obama, although we must always and everywhere disagree with him over abortion, has been duly elected the next President of the United States, and after he takes the Oath of Office next January 20th, he will hold legitimate authority in this nation. For this reason, we are obliged by Scriptural precept to pray for him and to cooperate with him whenever conscience does not bind us otherwise. Let us hope and pray that the responsibilities of the presidency and the grace of God will awaken in the conscience of this extraordinarily gifted man an awareness that the unholy slaughter of children in this nation is the greatest threat to the peace and security of the United States and constitutes a clear and present danger to the common good. In the time of President Obama’s service to our country, let us pray for him in the words of a prayer found in the Roman Missal:
God our Father, all earthly powers must serve you. Help our President-elect, Barack Obama, to fulfill his responsibilities worthily and well. By honoring and striving to please you at all times, may he secure peace and freedom for the people entrusted to him. We ask this through Our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God for ever and ever.
Amen.
Father Newman
I thought Christ came to save not the righteous, but the sinner? How is denying people communion going to do that? Before the athiests chime in w/"It's all a fairy tale anyway," keep in mind that the fairy tale forms a great number of your neighbors' consciousness and that priests still have moral authority to some (though they probably shouldn't).
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...and dinosaurs walked with man 4000 years ago.
A priest has no place within a conversation between a patient seeking medical advice and her physician. Period.
"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
PICS | |
"Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." -- Genesis 38:24
The same god said we should burn whores and their unborn children as well as told George Bush to invade Iraq.
Strange that the Catholic church has declared that abortion is a sin, yet Pope Pius XIII never declared it a sin for Catholics to have participated in the slaughter of the Jews during the holocaust. It seems that the church may not be the moral compass we should look to for answers.
The church, historically, has had no qualms when it's men have ordered the slaughter of thousands of innocent people: the crusades, the inquisition or the Salem witch trials just name a few. Yet when women are offered a choice of life or death, whether their own or a fetus, then the church objects.
The church has only the proclamations of men on which to base thier position, as the bible is ambiguous about abortion. There are no specific references to abortions - yet abortion existed at the time the bible was written. The bible is not at all ambiguous on it's position toward women:
"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33. 1
"And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26,
Nor is the Catholic Church:
"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1
The result of the church's zealous opposition to women's rights, science and an honest ethical debate is that the WHO estimates that 19 million unsafe abortions occur around the world annually and that 68,000 of these result in the woman's death.
In ethical terms perhaps we should ask ourselves if it is ethical for the state to legislate women to carry a fetus to full term. Not permitting women a choice over being pregnant and reproducing (consider the catholic position on birth control) is not compatible with justice in a free, democratic state. Even if the fetus is a person and abortion unethical, it shouldn’t be prevented through unethical means.
There exists a separation of church and state for a reason. Perhaps people should not confuse political and ethical debates with religious ones.
Freedom of religion allows for people to believe anything they want. Even if Catholics don't have a problem with all of the contradictions of the church - they are still free to believe what they want.
They are not supposed to be free to impose that unfounded belief system on the rest of us.
I'll be happy to join all of the infidels and people that voted for Obama in hell as it seems to be a more reasonable place. In the meantime: if you dont want an abortion: don't get one.
[last edit 11/18/2008 2:14 AM by tekriter - edited 1 times]
It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen | |
This is hilarious in that there isn't a single person on the planet who's "pro-abortion." Everyone agrees that it's pretty much disgusting and immoral. The reason people are pro-CHOICE is that it's even MORE immoral to carry a child to term if you can't take care of it, or if you don't want to risk childbearing complications, etc. No one advocates abortion as a form of birth control.
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Posted by tekriter
The church, historically, has had no qualms when it's men have ordered the slaughter of thousands of innocent people...the Salem witch trials
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Quoted for giggling.
Our Citizen.
Our Justice.
Bring Omar Khadr back to Canada. | |
Posted by Cap'n Morgatz
This is hilarious in that there isn't a single person on the planet who's "pro-abortion." Everyone agrees that it's pretty much disgusting and immoral. The reason people are pro-CHOICE is that it's even MORE immoral to carry a child to term if you can't take care of it, or if you don't want to risk childbearing complications, etc. No one advocates abortion as a form of birth control.
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Exactly. I heard a "joke" from an anti-abortion zealot recently: You're in a room with Hitler, Mussolini and an abortion doctor. You have a gun with only two bullets. Who do you shoot? The abortion doctor twice. Nice, huh?
Obviously, not all abortion foes believe that way. The world would be a much better place if women didn't have to make that choice, but unfortunately, too few people are willing to do something about that.
“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”
-Madeline Albright | |
Posted by KublaKhan
A priest has no place within a conversation between a patient seeking medical advice and her physician. Period.
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Amen.
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Posted by Cap'n Morgatz
The reason people are pro-CHOICE is that it's even MORE immoral to carry a child to term if you can't take care of it, or if you don't want to risk childbearing complications, etc.
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You are kidding, right? Killing an unborn child is somehow LESS immoral than allowing it to live and be cared for by someone who can!?
I'd like to see more women "choose" to keep their legs closed and men "choose" to keep their pants on if they are not prepared to deal with the consequences of their actions in a responsible manner which does not end in death and destruction. Just a thought.
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Posted by KublaKhan
A priest has no place within a conversation between a patient seeking medical advice and her physician. Period. |
If the patient is Catholic, he most certainly does. The patient has a moral obligation to be knowledgeable as to which medical procedures are permitted and which aren't. Every Catholic must follow the precepts of the Church in all matters. Any Catholic (not just public figures) who has failed to confess any mortal sin, and promise to do whatever is necessary to refrain from committing that sin again, cannot partake in communion. The Church has made its position clear. Get over it and move on.
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Posted by Trixi
You are kidding, right? Killing an unborn child is somehow LESS immoral than allowing it to live and be cared for by someone who can!?
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Agreed there. However, what if the pregnancy was the result of a rape or incest? I don't know if I could force a woman to carry a child produced from a rape or incest. That gives a whole different perspective.
Posted by Trixi
I'd like to see more women "choose" to keep their legs closed and men "choose" to keep their pants on if they are not prepared to deal with the consequences of their actions in a responsible manner which does not end in death and destruction. Just a thought.
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Yes it would be better if there was less "sleeping around". I personally don't agree with abortion when it's done to spare the inconvenience. That's just my two cents worth.
Returning to the topic at hand.
Posted by G to the Race
As much as I love the fact I was raised Catholic and still share many of the church's ideals, I feel this kind of shit is exactly against Christ's teachings.
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I feel the same way. The priest has no business judging people as he is a human too and is not infallible. He can speak with the people in his congregation but otherwise should stick to religion and leave the politics out of the church.
Gone for a while. Be back when I'm back. | |
Posted by Trixi
If the patient is Catholic, he most certainly does. The patient has a moral obligation to be knowledgeable as to which medical procedures are permitted and which aren't. Every Catholic must follow the precepts of the Church in all matters. Any Catholic (not just public figures) who has failed to confess any mortal sin, and promise to do whatever is necessary to refrain from committing that sin again, cannot partake in communion. The Church has made its position clear. Get over it and move on.
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No. You're wrong. A priest is a priest. A priest is not a medical doctor. A medical doctor is a medical doctor. A medical doctor is qualified to perform medical services. A priest is qualified to perform communion services. Different vocations. They are mutually exclusive.
"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
PICS | |
Posted by Trixi
Every Catholic must follow the precepts of the Church in all matters. Any Catholic (not just public figures) who has failed to confess any mortal sin, and promise to do whatever is necessary to refrain from committing that sin again, cannot partake in communion. The Church has made its position clear. Get over it and move on.
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Trixi has a point. The Catholic Church, as an organization of like-minded individuals, can set whatever rules it wants regarding who can and cannot participate in its rituals. If you disagree with the rules, you can leave the church. Nobody is making anyone be Catholic (In 21st century America, anyway).
If someone has voted their conscience and supported Obama, or any other cause, and they find themselves being censured by their place of worship, maybe it's time for them to re-think that mode of worship.
The real problem is when the church tries to force its rules on everyone else.
In places forgotten, tread where you will. -=- http://www.flickr.com/photos/avius/ | |
Posted by Avius
Trixi has a point. The Catholic Church, as an organization of like-minded individuals, can set whatever rules it wants regarding who can and cannot participate in its rituals. If you disagree with the rules, you can leave the church. Nobody is making anyone be Catholic (In 21st century America, anyway).
If someone has voted their conscience and supported Obama, or any other cause, and they find themselves being censured by their place of worship, maybe it's time for them to re-think that mode of worship.
The real problem is when the church tries to force its rules on everyone else.
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As it is so clearly doing in this instance.
"The truth is knowable. But probably not, ever, incontrovertible."
--Don DeLillo
PICS |
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Ethics
