Posted by G to the Race Nah, you probably know dozens of people who are true believers or hardcore atheists that you have never heard a peep from either way. The most pious Catholics I know are more likely to fight for non-believers than to make their faith public. Some folks just aren't dicks about their faith. Now, you make very persuasive points about the reach of religion into our lives and I agree that we should fight that tooth and nail. I just prefer the tone to be civil and pragmatic; on this forum and other "progressive" internet outlets the attacks are vitriolic, personal, and constant. I can't say how many "Look what I found on facebook from this bible-thumper" posts I've seen on the front page of Reddit. It's just frustrating to know that people who claim reason as their guiding light can act like fucking children about those who don't. If they are effecting your life, fight them all you can, but mocking them on the internet does nothing but create sympathy for them.

From people saying bless you when you sneeze, to being asked to say grace at public functions to laws enacted based on moronic interpretations of scripture - everyone is affected all the time in nearly every aspect of our lives.

You could never say a word outside your church, but the church gives money to political parties that make the laws that we all live by. You vote for the party that most matches your religious beliefs (look at mormon block voting or sharia law requests in Ontario). They pass these laws based on those same beliefs and we are all oppressed by unreason.

Laws are enacted every day because of unreasonable beliefs:

Abortion law
criminalization of homosexuality
gay marriage bans
stem cell research bans
invading iraq
stickers on text books
funding for faith based organizations
religious statutory holidays
god on money
sentencing addicts to religious 12 step programs

Posted by Mr_Fiend Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

So, tell me, why can't I just quote some graffiti that I saw which says, "There is no God?"
How is that any less valid than you quoting the Bible saying that there is?

Posted by splumer True, most people, believers or not, have little influence on the world at large, but religious thought for many informs everything they do, and spills over into their dealings with others. Example: my son's girlfriend worked at Chick-Fil-A. They would have bi-weekly employee meetings, and the boss would start things off with a prayer. All employees were expected to take part in the prayer. Also, how many people voted for Rick Santorum because of his religious views? Not enough, apparently, but enough to get him elected senator a couple times. The AV company I used to work for did installs for big churches. I installed a Midas audio console that by itself ran about $10k. Their total bill for their install was over $150k. Here's the church's web site: www.parksidechurch.com

The question, "How much money is given to churches when it could do some actual good, like feeding a hungry person or giving shelter to a homeless person?" is the exact reason I don't come down hard on churches more--they DO good things like this ALL THE TIME. Now, the megachurch BS is beyond my understanding and it sickens me when folks my age align themselves with these places. I mean, what are you seeking that would lead you to listen to a shuckster for life lessons? And, oh well about the now three people I know who became rich on the backs of their flock. Good work if you can get it.

Posted by G to the Race The question, "How much money is given to churches when it could do some actual good, like feeding a hungry person or giving shelter to a homeless person?" is the exact reason I don't come down hard on churches more--they DO good things like this ALL THE TIME. Now, the megachurch BS is beyond my understanding and it sickens me when folks my age align themselves with these places. I mean, what are you seeking that would lead you to listen to a shuckster for life lessons? And, oh well about the now three people I know who became rich on the backs of their flock. Good work if you can get it.

This is one of those fallacies we stickied!



The church is good because they do good things.

Hitler did good things too, but history judges - on the scale of things - that he might have been a bad man.

The unstated implication here is that these good things would not get done if not for the church.

This is called "Black or white" or the false dilemma.

Why can't people do good things without the church? or without believing ridiculous things about the universe? It is hard for secular organizations to get money in the US with faith based funding allocations, and the overarching religiosity in the US, but many good works are done without jesus and his foolish teachings.

Why do you need to believe that some imaginary dude came back from the dead to also help fellow human beings?

It is hard to characterize the good works of religious people as selfless sacrifice when the promise of eternal reward might also have something to do with it.

The simple fact that mega churches exist and use the same reasoning is all the more reason to examine the motives and need for faith based charity.

You have me until, "It is hard for secular organizations to get money in the US with faith based funding allocations, and the overarching religiosity in the US, but many good works are done without jesus and his foolish teachings." Jesus' teaching are not foolish, they are the same lessons other philosophies embrace. And in fact, "Love your neighbor as yourself" is a freaking revolution in five words. I will never buy that Jesus' teaching are foolish. Now, do I think he's gonna come back on a cloud and lift up the faithful? Not really, but they got to me when I was young so I have to bear the burden of doubt. I agree w/your stance on churches in general, but we can't deny the good done, however "foolish" the motives behind the good. Furthermore, the faithful are getting something from the church in return for their faith, what that is I can't really say but it is important to them and I'm not here to judge. So, while militant religion-haters like yourself make sound reasonable arguments that I for the most part agree with, the faithful have every right to feel as they do and I will leave them to do so.

Posted by G to the Race Jesus' teaching are not foolish, they are the same lessons other philosophies embrace.

Again, just because the literary character of Jesus seemed to be a pretty chill dude in some ways doesn't mean anything, partly because he also (understandably) espoused crazy beliefs of the time (demon possession, miracles, etc), but also because there has been so much editing of the stories that there is really no chance that there is any fair and honest representation of who ever may have existed, or what may have really happened.

Stories about his life are clearly made up, or at least extensively modified to integrate with ancient mythology. Most of the "miracles" were recorded decades after his death, even though it seems like they might have made some kind of impact at the time that they were performed, but apparently not enough for anyone to write it down.

So, yes, there is good in religion. There is good in Scientology, too. Some people do get personal benefit from those beliefs, just like I get a personal benefit from driving a car 100 miles a day to get to and from work, even though the net benefit to humanity is pretty negative from the car's pollution.

Posted by G to the Race " Jesus' teaching are not foolish, they are the same lessons other philosophies embrace. And in fact, "Love your neighbor as yourself" is a freaking revolution in five words. I will never buy that Jesus' teaching are foolish.

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Have you bought your jesus sword yet?

Revelation

2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Jesus says we should kill the children. Not foolish at all?


Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Kill the non-belivers. Makes sense. Not a revolution, but every revolution has to start somewhere, right?

Matthew 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Cut off your balls for heavens's sake.

Posted by tekriter Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Have you bought your jesus sword yet? Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Jesus says we should kill the children. Not foolish at all? Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Kill the non-belivers. Makes sense. Not a revolution, but every revolution has to start somewhere, right? Matthew 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Cut off your balls for heavens's sake.

We can quote our own Constitution that says black people on only 3/5s of a white person. Shit changes. I'm not here to argue scripture, I don't know enough about it to do so. However, the basic tenets of Christianity, loving your neighbor and forgiveness are far from foolish principles to live by. Now, you can mine up all you want from the bible to prove me wrong, I simply don't give a fuck because none of it applies to me. What I do care about is that militant religion-haters like yourself weaken the case of atheism or whatever ism they espouse by being dicks just like you are doing here.

And, BTW, Mr. Green Jeans is no better than tekwriter, they are, how do you say, two sides of the same coin?

Posted by G to the Race We can quote our own Constitution that says black people on only 3/5s of a white person. Shit changes. I'm not here to argue scripture, I don't know enough about it to do so. However, the basic tenets of Christianity, loving your neighbor and forgiveness are far from foolish principles to live by. Now, you can mine up all you want from the bible to prove me wrong, I simply don't give a fuck because none of it applies to me. What I do care about is that militant religion-haters like yourself weaken the case of atheism or whatever ism they espouse by being dicks just like you are doing here.

1. The constitution was written by men and makes no claim at being the infallible word of an all-seeing, all-knowing deity.

2. The bible is proof of nothing except that it is flawed, immoral and NOT written by an all-seeing, all-knowing deity.

3. The basic tenets AS YOU SEE THEM are an interpretation of a misinterpretation of a 2,000 year old hate manifesto and you have to ignore at least as much as you buy into to get anything good out of it.

4. I don't need to prove you wrong, you simply have not made a good case for any of the things that you assert. That is self-evident.

5. You can label me all you want (as you were trained to do), but misrepresenting my position does not make you right. Let me remind you that I have criticized your ideas and even ridiculed them - but I didn't call you names, or demonize any group of people to try to shore up a weak position. I am an equal opportunity hater of unreason, be it santa claus, or x-tian right internet homophobes.

If you think there is something unreasonable in what I have said, please point it out without all the hyperbolic hating.

Posted by tekriter 1. The constitution was written by men and makes no claim at being the infallible word of an all-seeing, all-knowing deity. 2. The bible is proof of nothing except that it is flawed, immoral and NOT written by an all-seeing, all-knowing deity. 3. The basic tenets AS YOU SEE THEM are an interpretation of a misinterpretation of a 2,000 year old hate manifesto and you have to ignore at least as much as you buy into to get anything good out of it. 4. I don't need to prove you wrong, you simply have not made a good case for any of the things that you assert. That is self-evident. 5. You can label me all you want (as you were trained to do), but misrepresenting my position does not make you right. Let me remind you that I have criticized your ideas and even ridiculed them - but I didn't call you names, or demonize any group of people to try to shore up a weak position. I am an equal opportunity hater of unreason, be it santa claus, or x-tian right internet homophobes. If you think there is something unreasonable in what I have said, please point it out without all the hyperbolic hating.

I just think it's sturm-und-drang and a whole lotta hooey. Big flippin' deal you're an atheist, aside from yourself, who cares? Same goes for the bible-thumpers, the whole lot of you should just STFU.

Posted by G to the Race I just think it's sturm-und-drang and a whole lotta hooey. Big flippin' deal you're an atheist, aside from yourself, who cares? Same goes for the bible-thumpers, the whole lot of you should just STFU.

You should care. The fact that you don't want to know whether your assertions are right or wrong sentences you to a life of mediocrity.

The fact that you don't care enough about the injustices in the world to even point them out means you have sentenced everyone around you to ignorance.

You are unable to answer any of the original questions of the post, and you don't seem to be making any point other than a) you don't understand, b) you don't want to, and c) it is somehow more reasonable for everyone to shut up than for you to simply go away?

Posted by tekriter You should care. The fact that you don't want to know whether your assertions are right or wrong sentences you to a life of mediocrity. The fact that you don't care enough about the injustices in the world to even point them out means you have sentenced everyone around you to ignorance. You are unable to answer any of the original questions of the post, and you don't seem to be making any point other than a) you don't understand, b) you don't want to, and c) it is somehow more reasonable for everyone to shut up than for you to simply go away?

I've seen enough of the atheist/theist debate to know it's all bs. Sorry I wasted your time here but you are no more likely to change mr. green jeans mind and ways than he is to change yours.

To answer the "why doesn't God cure the amputees?" thing: God doesn't exist, so God can't cure anything.

To address each of your points: a) I understand militant religion-haters as childish people who got a new toy called atheism on the internet and can rile a whole lot of people w/it. Big deal

b) I want to understand why you can't just leave people alone; you have a good argument w/religion infiltrating our laws and government, do more of that and less of the bible-quoting, it makes you look like a dick

c) when both sides STFU I will have no reason to be here.

Posted by G to the Race b) I want to understand why you can't just leave people alone; you have a good argument w/religion infiltrating our laws and government,

that's just it... the other side doesn't want to leave people alone. they want us all to believe in their god and march to their drummer. And it's not just christians. Muslims are even worse! God is an empty promise back by people with an agenda to make everyone like them. And the majority of them have this 'with us or against us' mindset as they wait around for the end of the world. What the hell? Why would someone look forward to the end of the world? What sick shit is that?

Sam I have to disagree with you. The loudest most obnoxious ones are the ones like that. I call them hypochristians. Any true Christian would be not be hateful or pushy. Its that whole thou shalt not judge thing. Sadly the more someone has to convince you they are something, the more likely it is that they are not. Im a good person, but I don't have any shirts or bumper stickers proclaiming how nice I am, they way I treat people says that for me. Same goes for religious folks, if you have to tell everyone how religious and pious you are, then obviously something about your actions makes people to think otherwise. Saying all Christians are pushy and bigots is just as bad as saying all gay men are sexual deviants and perverts or all atheist are arrogant assholes. Stereotyping is stereotyping, regardless of who is getting stereotyped.

Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby Sam I have to disagree with you. The loudest most obnoxious ones are the ones like that. I call them hypochristians. Any true Christian would be not be hateful or pushy. Its that whole thou shalt not judge thing. Sadly the more someone has to convince you they are something, the more likely it is that they are not. Im a good person, but I don't have any shirts or bumper stickers proclaiming how nice I am, they way I treat people says that for me. Same goes for religious folks, if you have to tell everyone how religious and pious you are, then obviously something about your actions makes people to think otherwise. Saying all Christians are pushy and bigots is just as bad as saying all gay men are sexual deviants and perverts or all atheist are arrogant assholes. Stereotyping is stereotyping, regardless of who is getting stereotyped.

ok, i'll give you that.

Posted by G to the Race I've seen enough of the atheist/theist debate to know it's all bs. Sorry I wasted your time here but you are no more likely to change mr. green jeans mind and ways than he is to change yours. To answer the "why doesn't God cure the amputees?" thing: God doesn't exist, so God can't cure anything. To address each of your points: a) I understand militant religion-haters as childish people who got a new toy called atheism on the internet and can rile a whole lot of people w/it. Big deal b) I want to understand why you can't just leave people alone; you have a good argument w/religion infiltrating our laws and government, do more of that and less of the bible-quoting, it makes you look like a dick c) when both sides STFU I will have no reason to be here.

a) So you still don't get it.
b) here's why: MJG: "Since the vast majority of humanity is heterosexual, then being born gay would mean that gays are born with an abnormality making them unlike the vast majority of other humans. It's a proven fact that the brains of cross dressers are physically abnormal compared to the brains of heterosexuals. Since many of them are in fact gays to begin with I would bet similar studies on gays would show the same brain abnormalities."

This sort of cliff claven hate speech from authority should never go unchallenged - by anyone.

It's also worth noting that I did not begin bible quoting - I was merely demonstrating the incorrect assertions that someone else attempted to make by quoting the not good book.

Odd that you seem to be most offended by a correctly constructed counter argument using the exact same source that was offered as evidence by someone else.

c)So your role is to stifle debate? You seem to want to appear to be a moderate and stake out some kind of middle ground, yet you throw around name-calling and insults and make all kinds of self-aggrandizing loud noises and never support your position with anything remotely resembling evidence.

It is very telling that you spend all kinds of time whining about me quoting bible passages (from a book that millions claim is the inspired word of god and claim to organize their life around), yet you are nearly silent when someone uses the bible to espouse hatred and condemnation of entire groups of people.

MJG no more speaks for all of Christianity than you speak for all of atheism. My job isn't to stifle debate, look how far we've gotten w/this! My complaint is that the internet is flush w/cute militant atheists and frankly I'm tired of them. Good for you, you don't believe in God; I don't believe in the tooth fairy but I ain't out spoutin' off about it 24/7. Your arguments are correct, your reasoning solid, i'm just tired of it.

Posted by G to the Race MJG no more speaks for all of Christianity than you speak for all of atheism. My job isn't to stifle debate, look how far we've gotten w/this! My complaint is that the internet is flush w/cute militant atheists and frankly I'm tired of them. Good for you, you don't believe in God; I don't believe in the tooth fairy but I ain't out spoutin' off about it 24/7. Your arguments are correct, your reasoning solid, i'm just tired of it.

militant atheist?
i'm too lazy for that.

Posted by G to the Race MJG no more speaks for all of Christianity than you speak for all of atheism. My job isn't to stifle debate, look how far we've gotten w/this! My complaint is that the internet is flush w/cute militant atheists and frankly I'm tired of them. Good for you, you don't believe in God; I don't believe in the tooth fairy but I ain't out spoutin' off about it 24/7. Your arguments are correct, your reasoning solid, i'm just tired of it.

My response to this exact feeling regarding the politics board was to unsubscribe.