Nice quote

This case is not about the need to separate church and state. It's about the need to separate ignorant, scientifically illiterate people from the ranks of teachers.

Posted by MutantMandias Nice quote It's about the need to separate ignorant, scientifically illiterate people from the ranks of teachers.

And now for a list of said people who believed in God.


Nicholas Copernicus

Johannes Kepler - he was a Lutheran

Galileo Galilei

Isaac Newton - I've read several books where he compares mathematics to God and His creation

Robert Boyle - a very strong Protestant

Michael Faraday

William Thomson Kelvin

And of course we know Albert Einstein believed the universe was created, though he never said he was a Christian



All facts, but they wont tell you that in secular schools. Cuz that would mean those people were nuts, since half of them claimed many of their ideas were inspirations from God.

I just don't understand what's wrong with keeping religion in the home and church.

Why schools at all?

Is it because of The Great Commission?

Posted by Mr_Fiend And now for a list of said people who believed in God. Nicholas Copernicus Johannes Kepler - he was a Lutheran Galileo Galilei Isaac Newton - I've read several books where he compares mathematics to God and His creation Robert Boyle - a very strong Protestant Michael Faraday William Thomson Kelvin And of course we know Albert Einstein believed the universe was created, though he never said he was a Christian All facts, but they wont tell you that in secular schools. Cuz that would mean those people were nuts, since half of them claimed many of their ideas were inspirations from God.

And.... HITLER.

Posted by Mr_Fiend And now for a list of said people who believed in God. Nicholas Copernicus Johannes Kepler - he was a Lutheran Galileo Galilei Isaac Newton - I've read several books where he compares mathematics to God and His creation Robert Boyle - a very strong Protestant Michael Faraday William Thomson Kelvin And of course we know Albert Einstein believed the universe was created, though he never said he was a Christian All facts, but they wont tell you that in secular schools. Cuz that would mean those people were nuts, since half of them claimed many of their ideas were inspirations from God.

no frame all these people in the timeframes they lived in... no fucking shit.

Posted by Mr_Fiend And now for a list of said people who believed in God. Nicholas Copernicus Johannes Kepler - he was a Lutheran Galileo Galilei Isaac Newton - I've read several books where he compares mathematics to God and His creation Robert Boyle - a very strong Protestant Michael Faraday William Thomson Kelvin And of course we know Albert Einstein believed the universe was created, though he never said he was a Christian All facts, but they wont tell you that in secular schools. Cuz that would mean those people were nuts, since half of them claimed many of their ideas were inspirations from God.

Uuhhh... these guys are ancient. The most recent among them is Lord Kelvin, who died in 1907. Most of them are from the 1600's. Of course they were religious; there really was no choice at that time.

A more modern list of scientists would feature lots of atheists and agnostics: E.O. Wilson, Schrodinger, Amartya Sen, Alan Turing, Arrhenius, Niels Bohr, Francis Crick, James Watson, Paul Broca, Pierre Curie, Richard Dawkins, Jared Diamond, Paul Dirac, Thomas Edison, Richard Feynman, Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan, Ernst Mayr, Jacques Monod, Desmond Morris, Alfred Nobel, Oppenheimer, Linus Pauling, Pavlov, Poincare, Susskind, Peter Higgs, Stephen Jay Gould, Ian Tattersall,...

There are a few Christians in modern science. Francis Collins, Freeman Dyson, Max Plank. I assure you it's a much shorter list by anyone's count.

People are free to believe whatever they wish, but what's taught in classrooms needs to be reality-based.

Posted by Hotwired Heart Uuhhh... these guys are ancient.

So that means what? That because they are from a different time that their beliefs are somehow less creditable? Science and life will always have variables, time has nothing to do with it. There is one difference though, those scientists were not trying to prove God existed, it was just simply a byproduct of their experiments and theories. Many of todays secular and athiest scientists have an obvious bias against anything that would mention God. Intentions are everything.

Posted by Hotwired Heart what's taught in classrooms needs to be reality-based.

And that is determined by your beliefs. Someone who believes in a created universe, views reality much different than one who thinks life just happened and will just end with no purpose. "reality-based" curriculum can vary greatly based on its core origins and purpose.

This is why I'm adamant to teach creation, it is the sole reason behind so many mysteries that science will never grasp, such as how and why we are here. There are no ulterior motives, there is no desire for control, only to teach the truth as it has been taught since the beginning of the world.

Posted by Mr_Fiend So that means what? That because they are from a different time that their beliefs are somehow less creditable?

Yes. For example, they also believed that evil spirits entered them when they sneezed.

Posted by Mr_Fiend Many of todays secular and athiest scientists have an obvious bias against anything that would mention God. Intentions are everything.

Yes, many do have such bias, just as many religious people have irrational bias against science and mutually observable reality. The thing is, bias towards rationality is internally consistent and logical, while bias against observable reality is pretty dumb.

Posted by Mr_Fiend Someone who believes in a created universe, views reality much different than one who thinks life just happened and will just end with no purpose.

Hells yeah. And someone who believes in a created universe (i.e. They assign unreasonable and unknowable explanations for observable reality) will make decisions, predictions, and assumptions on criteria which does not exist, simply because they thought it up. Sometimes that works out, but sometimes it results in Republicans.

Posted by Mr_Fiend This is why I'm adamant to teach creation, it is the sole reason behind so many mysteries that science will never grasp, such as how and why we are here. There are no ulterior motives, there is no desire for control, only to teach the truth as it has been taught since the beginning of the world.

Creation is not "reason" in any sense of the word. I have no problem with studying creation myths. I did so in school, but I never understood why the Greek and American Indian mythologies were separated from the Christian ones. In fact, American Indian fables are far more useful and practical for learning about how to be a good and productive person than Christian stories.

Religion is philosophy at best. While I am all for self examination, wonderment at the mysteries of the universe, and the intention to live a good life and make the world a better place, the Bible is a pretty piss-poor source book for that work. It is an ever worse source book for understanding the physical reality of existence.

Posted by MutantMandias the Bible is a pretty piss-poor source book for that work. It is an ever worse source book for understanding the physical reality of existence.

And the "big bang theory" is a pretty piss-poor source as well. The truth is we dont know the truth, that's essentially what is taught in schools now. "We think matter compressed from nothing, exploded and made everything, in theory".

You all can talk all day long about how creation is crazy, but something from nothing is just plain insane, it has no ultimate truth, no definite answer, no solution to the problem.

Religion has no place in schools, except in history classes. If you want to be taught in a religious way, attend a private religious school or go to Sunday school. My son should not feel pressured by his peers or educators to join a religious organization.

Posted by Mr_Fiend And that is determined by your beliefs. Someone who believes in a created universe, views reality much different than one who thinks life just happened and will just end with no purpose. "reality-based" curriculum can vary greatly based on its core origins and purpose. This is why I'm adamant to teach creation, it is the sole reason behind so many mysteries that science will never grasp, such as how and why we are here. There are no ulterior motives, there is no desire for control, only to teach the truth as it has been taught since the beginning of the world.

What reality do you live in that beliefs determine reality?

It's like when a kid sees his parent commit suicide and screams "He's ok! He's ok!" He's no more ok than your argument makes sense.


Faith by definition is belief without evidence. Or in other words, gullibility. I denounce the notion that you can take a series of fairy tales about how a magical cloud man pretty much "I dream of Jeannie'd" the universe because the book said so, and put that in a science classroom with years of science that has been deduced from research, observation, and experimentation and call it equal? That mindset is dangerous.

Posted by Mr_Fiend And the "big bang theory" is a pretty piss-poor source as well. The truth is we dont know the truth, that's essentially what is taught in schools now. "We think matter compressed from nothing, exploded and made everything, in theory". You all can talk all day long about how creation is crazy, but something from nothing is just plain insane, it has no ultimate truth, no definite answer, no solution to the problem.

So everything came from nothing is more absurd than some magical omnipotent being creating everything from nothing? Who created the creator? Where did he come from? Did he come from nothing? Or was he just always there?

And what problem does big bang theory fail to solve? Is it that it doesn't offer the comfort of an afterlife in there? That the big bang theory doesn't explain abiogenesis? That we need to completely prove everything in the universe beyond a shadow of doubt, otherwise it's all completely invalid and god had to do it? At least they're trying. I think teaching children of today that we don't know the truth is just fine, seeing as though it's the truth. Is there something wrong with telling children the truth if the answer isn't exactly what you want it to be? Perhaps that's the problem it doesn't solve.

The fact of the matter is we don't know for sure everything about where the universe came from. What can be said is the big bang theory holds up to a touch more scrutiny than anything in the bible, combined.

So again, why is religion in the home and church not good enough?

Why public schools attended by children of all faiths and backgrounds?

I thought the Great Commission was about evangelizing overseas, but guess it means evangelizing and witnessing anywhere and everywhere.

It that what the push for religion in schools is about? To evangalize? Or to protect the minds of believers?

Posted by Esoterik It that what the push for religion in schools is about? To evangalize? Or to protect the minds of believers?

It's to protect the souls of people. Your body dies, but your soul, the essence of you lives on forever. I and other Christians want you to live and know the truth. It must be taught because we are born into a world full of sin and lies.

And to clarify, I dont think "religion" should be taught, as religion is an organized system of beliefs. I want the only truth, the truth of creation. And say what you want, science easily fits into creation, but that of course is not taught in public schools. The truth is covered and gone around.

Christians want it in school because we know you are being deceived.

And a belief in God changes your reality because you realize that this is not the end, you have a purpose, that bad things happen because there is sin in the world, and that everything is dying because of the curse brought on by Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God. Once that is taught in school, your perspective on life changes, your reality opens up and you see things as they really are, and you make decisions that effect your soul and others souls, eternal changes that have meaning.

Dont live the lie. Dont harden your heart to the one truth that has triumphed through thousands of years of persecution.

Posted by Mr_Fiend And the "big bang theory" is a pretty piss-poor source as well. The truth is we dont know the truth, that's essentially what is taught in schools now. "We think matter compressed from nothing, exploded and made everything, in theory". You all can talk all day long about how creation is crazy, but something from nothing is just plain insane, it has no ultimate truth, no definite answer, no solution to the problem.

The Big Bang Theory is not a source. Its a model. That's how science works. Theoretical models that match and predict observable reality are developed and tested. When further research supports the model, it gains credibility as a predictive tool, but not necessarily as an exact representation of physical reality. Models that prove faulty are usually modified or expanded in an attempt to save them, but eventually, their continued existence depends on internal consistency and predictive power. Lots of people misunderstand this, and that may be part of the problem.

Niels Bohr's model of the atom worked really well for explaining observed phenomena, and still does, as long as you are only looking to a certain level. Newton's Laws do a great job of predicting results on a certain scale. They have both been definitively proven to not be reality, but they are close enough to be useful, and are therefore still used for their simplicity and predictive powers in appropriate situations.

Looking at the Bible with ideas of internal consistency and predictive power is rather a silly exercise.

One important note is that scientific theories don't attribute reason or purpose to as to why a thrown object moves in a parabola, because that isn't relevant, just as why the universe formed isn't a relevant part of a useful model of the universe. Also, modern theoretical models about existence do not in fact suppose a universe bursting forth out of nothing. Think of the universe as a cell on a body. The body exists much longer than the cell. The cell comes into being and dies, along with countless other ones, some of which are vastly different.

Posted by Mr_Fiend Once that is taught in school, your perspective on life changes, your reality opens up and you see things as they really are, and you make decisions that effect your soul and others souls, eternal changes that have meaning.

Yeah, but some of us can be good people all on our own.

Sure, some people seem to only be able to find a reason to be a good person in religion, and that's a benefit for them.

But, in my personal experience, in the vast majority of cases, people who use religion as a source for their morality end up being hypocritical, and causing internal cognitive dissonance between what they have come to believe, and what they know to be true.

This kind of schism between religious thought and reality is rampant in America, where it is never a surprise when religious and political leaders, who are celebrated for their group-think and kowtowing to various religious themes, are found to actually live very different lives.

Posted by Mr_Fiend And the "big bang theory" is a pretty piss-poor source as well.

Source of what? Unlike religious texts, scientific theories don't claim to provide ultimate truths and moral guidance. Unlike religion, science is a process that admits mistakes and aims to correct. That ability to change is part of what's great about science. It's not something that needs to be frightening.

I happen to be pretty thrilled with my godless life.


me:

what's taught in classrooms needs to be reality-based.

you:

And that is determined by your beliefs.

I think that all of us who use computers, watch TV, drive cars, and participate in other technologies are implicitly agreeing on a reality that can be predicted and observed (sometimes), measured, calculated, manipulated, and so on. That's the reality of science, and that's what needs to be taught in schools.

Posted by MutantMandias The Big Bang Theory is not a source. Its a model. That's how science works.... everything else you said....

+1

Posted by MutantMandias But, in my personal experience, in the vast majority of cases, people who use religion as a source for their morality end up being hypocritical, and causing internal cognitive dissonance between what they have come to believe, and what they know to be true.

And with who they are. The latest:

U.S Anti-gay pastor Grant Storms convicted of masturbating in New Orleans park
The Rev. Grant Storms, a fiery anti-gay New Orleans preacher, has been convicted of masturbating in a public park in 2011, telling authorities that the sex act was a ‘thrill’ and a ‘fantasy.’

Anonymous/ASSOCIATED PRESS
Rev. Grant Storms was convicted in Louisiana for masturbating in a public park last year. Storms was well known for holding anti-gay protests during New Orleans annual Southern Decadence festival.

An anti-gay pastor in New Orleans was convicted of masturbating in a public park last year, telling authorities in his confession that the sex act was a "thrill" and a "fantasy."

Grant Storms, who gained notoriety by leading a raucous march against homosexuals during New Orleans' annual gay-oriented Southern Decadence festival, was found guilty of obscenity on Wednesday for the Feb. 25, 2011, incident.

Storms was busted in Lafreniere Park in suburban Metairie after a nanny spotted him behind the wheel of his parked van with his penis out and a hat partially covering his face.

After he was arrested, the 55-year-old preacher admitted to cops that it was the third time that week he had pleasured himself in the park, the New Orleans Times-Picayune reported.

During his confession, Storms told police he was cutting some grass in the park when he took a break to drink a beer and became "horny," the newspaper reported.

"Why do you go to the park and do this, as far as masturbating,” Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Office Sgt. Kevin Balser asked Storms during the interview, according to the Times-Picayune.

"I don't know," Storms said. "I guess a thrill."

"So it's a thrill-slash-fantasy for you?" Balser said.

"Yes," Storms said.

After the arrest, Storms was accused of being a pedophile because he had been busted near a park where children often play.

But prosecutors said there was no evidence that Storms was sexually aroused by children.

A search of his cell phone and computer didn't find any child porn, the newspaper reported.

Storms did not comment after the conviction.

The firebrand preacher became a national figure for his anti-gay protests during Southern Decadence, a three-day gay festival in the French Quarter held every year around Labor Day.

Carrying signs and a bullhorn, Storms slammed the event as "depraved" and called The Big Easy a "prostitute" for hosting it.

Storms was sentenced to three years of probation and ordered to recieve psychological treatment.

.

Posted by Esoterik But prosecutors said there was no evidence that Storms was sexually aroused by children.

Or that he was gay, but the article seems to revel in trying to draw a connection there.

Posted by Mr_Fiend It's to protect the souls of people. Your body dies, but your soul, the essence of you lives on forever. I and other Christians want you to live and know the truth. It must be taught because we are born into a world full of sin and lies. And to clarify, I dont think "religion" should be taught, as religion is an organized system of beliefs. I want the only truth, the truth of creation. And say what you want, science easily fits into creation, but that of course is not taught in public schools. The truth is covered and gone around. Christians want it in school because we know you are being deceived. And a belief in God changes your reality because you realize that this is not the end, you have a purpose, that bad things happen because there is sin in the world, and that everything is dying because of the curse brought on by Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God. Once that is taught in school, your perspective on life changes, your reality opens up and you see things as they really are, and you make decisions that effect your soul and others souls, eternal changes that have meaning. Dont live the lie. Dont harden your heart to the one truth that has triumphed through thousands of years of persecution.

you are so FULL OF SHIT! You're just like every other pompous religious twat i have come across on my 39 years on this damn ball. You think that your flavor of invisible friend is right and true and everyone needs to be saved. Fuck you. Yeah, that's right. Fuck you and everyone that believes the same bullshit you believe in. HOW DARE YOU! Who do you people think you are? Have you ever critically looked at your faith and realized how full of shit it is? I mean, full to the brim of the brown and gooey that comes out the business end of a cow.

Here's a little secret i'm going to let you in on, mr fiend... that big secret that most everyone knows, but you and other true believers don't, is that religion and faith to an extent is not about the afterlife. It's not about salvation. It's not about your soul. It's not about afterlife insurance premiums. It's 110% about control. It's about controlling you through FEAR. Yep, fear. You really think that there is a man in the sky that watches everything you do and if you don't subscribe to his personally autographed big book o sin you're going to a lake of fire when you cack? Have I got a bridge to sell you, young man. You're controlled. You're like pavlov's dogs... you people are trained to hate on command and wrap it in a righteous flag of 'saving souls'. Man, you people don't even hear yourselves or you'd realize how CRAZY you are.

Religion and faith were originally marketed to people who fucked sheep on hillsides, would kill their wives for serving yak on a stick cold, or kill their neighbor for a nice set of wooden spoons and matching bowls. It was all about controlling behavior. As time went along, language evolved and soon people were at a loss to explain the observations of the world around them... faith filled the reason vacuum. So at first you had pantheism, the belief in many gods; wind god, earth god, water god, yadda yadda yadda... Eventually, as time went on, people stumbled on to the idea that humans will buy anything with attractive enough packaging... (a lesson that, oddly enough, still holds true today), so the concept of GOD (duh duh duhhhhh!!) was created, in two flavors.... you had the christian god (who, if you have read the old testament was a vengeful cranky motherfucker) and allah (who again, was and is a cranky, vengeful motherfucker). And the glue that held the brand together? Ohhh... Old Scratch... Satan. Well, gee whiz golly gee... oh noes.

Now, naturally, as time went on, man began to think (Oh NO!!) and cypher out the world around him. This was of course running in parallel with organized religion converting (or killing... that's nice) people as fast as they could. So, all those early scientists had to rock their theories in drag or be KILLED as a heretic.

So you see, kiddo, religion is and always has been about control. Controlling what you say, what you think, what you feel, what you believe. It's not about your soul, or afterlife insurance, it's about telling others how to live their lives whether they like it or not. AND THAT IS A DANGEROUS FALLACY.

you criticize science for not having all the answers. Well, science may not, but they've got enough to point the finger away from your god. And christian ALWAYS bring up the big bang... well, sweechuck, do some reading on the big bang theory and WHY it just might be right, because the concept of god sitting in the dark and thinking, "you know what I need? i need a universe to play with. Yep, i'll make this insignificant ball in the outskirts of an insignificant galaxy. Oh yeah, and I'll make these fucked up looking creatures to play with and they can all worship me me me!"

start thinking along those lines and you'll realize how fucking crazy religion is.

and now, I don't care if you're pissed off. What are you going to do, call up your god and have me vanquished? Gonna get a 21st David to come to my house and slay me with a rock smoothie. Religion is a joke and if you really put your faith in it, you're just a slave for slaughter.

oh yeah and one more thing... if you put so much faith in your religion, why does it hate so fucking much? Look at this asshole Mandias posted? Anti-gay preacher caught in a PUBLIC PARK stroking his cock. Yeah, buddy, REAL christian behavior right there. Its like your faith preaches out of both sides of its mouth (like a good salesman), love your neighbor, but not if he's gay. Or a muslim? or a hindu? or pink?

hehehe... you know why your christ hasn't come back? lol... he's fucking embarassed!