not what nature intended?
what are natures intentions?



the bible also "clearly says" a lot of shit.. for example....
http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/Bbl/Sexism/Sexism.html
come on.. the bible isn't choose your own adventure now is it?

Posted by katwoman An intellectual thing. The Bible says clearly that homosexuality is wrong, therefore; those who follow the Bible believe that homosexuality is wrong. We may or may not feel repulsed when looking at a gay couple, but the important part is the intellectual belief that it is wrong.

Ok that's cool, feelings can betray you easily, but reason and rationality betray you less often. Of course, faith, by common definition, is irrational. That said, I am irrational too

Posted by katwoman An intellectual thing. The Bible says clearly that homosexuality is wrong, ...

Yeah, a selective reading of a large self-contradictory pile of primitive tribal lore, selectively interpreted to support an irrational fear of queers that go bump in the night, with the ultimate purpose of political and social mobilization, that is, to keep churches afloat and privileged.

If this is an "intellectual thing," than I really am living in Lower Dumfuckistan.

A lot of these controversial versus such as on Sexism and various other topics need to be taken in context. Many of the verses stating that the church should not be taken at face value only as many of them are addressed to certain society's needs. For example, many of the rules in the Old Testament were addressed to the nation of Israel. One has to remember that Christianity is relatively young beginning only with the appearance of Christ.

Due to the fact that homosexuality has been considered a sin I do not agree with the principle. While I am against the practise of homosexuality I am not against the people whom practise it as I follow the practice of "Love the Sinner Hate the Sin."

By the way, please keep your responses respectful.

Posted by Curious_George A lot of these controversial versus such as on Sexism and various other topics need to be taken in context. Many of the verses stating that the church should not be taken at face value only as many of them are addressed to certain society's needs. For example, many of the rules in the Old Testament were addressed to the nation of Israel. One has to remember that Christianity is relatively young beginning only with the appearance of Christ.

So the bible is full of crap then? If half of it needs to be taken in long dead context, then whats the point? ITs basically a choose your own adventure book. "Hmm, I like that verse, but uh.. i'll skip the next one because it was written a long time ago for some other people" with all due respect, come on thats bullshit
and how many times has the bible been misinterpreted? how many people have been killed in the name of god? how many cultures and civilizations brought to ruin? I think based purely on history the bible has by far brought more harm to this world than good. Think about it..
The bible is just a tool, constructed by humans for use on humans. It works wonderfully too.

Posted by Captain Midnight The bible is just a tool, constructed by humans for use on humans. It works wonderfully too.

Well stated!!

Posted by Curious_George "Love the Sinner Hate the Sin."

A phrase that's meaningless at best, deceptive at worst.

When you live in a place where the dominant political movement is working on all kinds of ways to implement their peculiar definition of "sin" through public policy, it's clear that this is nonsense. Those who are clear about what they want to do are quite explicit about what they'd like to see happen to the people they allegedly "love" who happen to be "sinners" of particular kinds.

Reminds me of the time I pressed a particular Christian activist on this point; he says "the Bible says we must show sinners mercy," and I finished that sentence with, "while you're stoning them to death."

Of course there was nothing more for him to say, I just was a bit more clear about the bloody conclusion of the process that they'd like to put into place.

Legions of people running around babbling contradictory nonsense about love and hate around these matters while clearly expressing their phobias about particular people just allows those with clear plans some measure of plausible deniability.

It also seems that this phrase gets used a lot whan you're talking about those so-called "sins" that are part of a person's identity, those intimate choices about who to partner with or when or how to reproduce; those areas where separating the so-called "sin" and the person is really impossible.

It would be as if someone walked up to you and said, "I really hate Christianity but love Christians." You'd be looking at them rather funny, wouldn't you?

By the way, please keep your responses respectful.

Again, it must be easy for you to say, living in a place where it seems that the idea of equal protection under the law actually counts for something. Where the phobic Christian activist is viewed with some degree of wariness and is marginalized. Here they put them in the White House and throughout all levels of government.

Here it seems that the bored suburban Christian just doesn't feel like their life is worth anything unless there's someone's neck under their boot. It used to be that neck of the person under that boot would be a person of color, before blatant racism based on skin color became passe'.

Now what you have is "holy race"-ism. They can't base the choice of target on skin color, that would exclude African- and native-Americans from participating and they need every person they can get their hands on. Now everyone gets to play the game, as long as they can claim to be holier than everybody else. The method of figuring out new ways to target particular neighbors is just a bit different, but under that it's still just like old fashioned racism, figuring out who you get to take their jobs, or kids, or house away from, or worse, because if you aren't stepping on somebody you must not be doing your job. For them, there always has to be some second-class citizen under them to crush, and they work in our government at every level to formalize this order.

There is nothing about this that is the least bit respectable.

I think the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" makes sense. Sure, I disagree with Christians about what is and isn't sins, but the idea makes sense. Of course being gay isn't a sin and is completely normal, as the younger generations replace the old this will become less and less of an issue, just as racism has. But for real "sins," murder say, it makes sense to me to "love the murderer, hate the act of murder." But I guess since I don't believe in capital punishment, or most things like that it makes me less hypocritical...

Posted by katwoman An intellectual thing. The Bible says clearly that homosexuality is wrong, therefore; those who follow the Bible believe that homosexuality is wrong. We may or may not feel repulsed when looking at a gay couple, but the important part is the intellectual belief that it is wrong.

Homosexuality is only referred to as wrong in Leviticus. Biblical scholars have examined the Hebrew word for sin and found out that the form of Hebraic word for sin used in Leviticus refers to ritual impropriety. As the surrounding passages refer to Molech worship and Molech worship contains ritualized homosexuality, it is this form of Molech worship which is forbidden, not homosexuality in general.

http://www.religio...e.org/hom_bibh.htm

http://www.religio....org/hom_bibh3.htm

It is only referred to in Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) and no where else as a sin. In Sodom and Gomorrah, homosexuality is used as punishment for heterosexuals.

Posted by thoughtcriminal Reminds me of the time I pressed a particular Christian activist on this point; he says "the Bible says we must show sinners mercy," and I finished that sentence with, "while you're stoning them to death." Of course there was nothing more for him to say, I just was a bit more clear about the bloody conclusion of the process that they'd like to put into place.

Heh. What a crazy guy, if he really thought that killing them was the way to go.


Much of the problem here are the people who call themselves Christians. You need to watch out for the extremists, just as Muslims or any other religion have extremists; so does Christianity.

From the responses I have been reading it would seem to me that you are seeing only "Frontage" Christianity. This type of Christianity is much like an old building that has been renovated. On the outside it appears to be an old building but its interior is new and cheaply renovated...a deception. Much like this, many people appear to have a relationship with Christ but in reality their hearts are quite the opposite. From what I have been able to judge from what I see on American news stations it would seem that a majority of the people one sees are the Fronted Christians.

One's opinion on a religion or group should not be based on the most vocal fanatical group. If we did, the Muslim faith would be nothing more than a fodder for terrorism and all of the Germans under Nazi rule would be jew haters.

Very true. I have met some very caring Christians. Unfortunately, when I visit my parents in the US, most of their neighbours (not all Americans...they live in the southern bible belt)are complete fanatics. Their first question is, "what denomination are you?" and then go on to tell me how I'm going to burn in hell, my country is a hotbed of Satan, liberal Canadians are leading North America to Hell yada yada..

I frequently get asked these questions and told these statements. Perhaps I am projecting my disgust of fundamentalists onto all Christians, which is wrong.

Posted by apprentice I frequently get asked these questions and told these statements. Perhaps I am projecting my disgust of fundamentalists onto all Christians, which is wrong.

It might be wrong, but if that's about all you're exposed to, the opinion you form isn't going to be a very pleasant one.

Posted by Valiant Dancer Homosexuality is only referred to as wrong in Leviticus... It is only referred to in Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) and no where else as a sin. In Sodom and Gomorrah, homosexuality is used as punishment for heterosexuals.

Sorry for the long delay in this reply.

Romans 1:24-27 clearly says sex within the same gender is abnormal and sinful.
http://www.biblega...24-27;&version=31;


Genesis 2:24 clearly says marriage is to be between a man and a woman (and, the whole Bible is very clear that sex outside of marriage is wrong).
http://www.biblega...02:24;&version=31;


Genesis 18:20 mentions the sinfulness of Sodom (from where we get our word "s odomy"). http://www.biblega...20-21;&version=31;

Genesis 19 show an example: the men of Sodom wanting to have sex with Lot's two visitors, implying that rampant homosexuality was one of the main sins. And these guys were struck blind by angels for their intentions -- obviously God's stamp of disapproval.

Yeah I think the Bible pretty clearly says gay sex is wrong. One of the many reasons I don't believe much of the Bible.

It also says slavery is ok, as well as stoning sinners. Everyone on this board needs to see The Life of Brian to see how things may have been blown out of proportion (although, it is satirical) and how what the prophets wrote decades after Christ's death may have messed things up as in a child's game of telephone

Life of Brian? I love that movie! ooohhh, good stuff.

I think the Bible is a tough one. On one hand I want to say that you should pick and choose what you believe from the bible, on the other hand, picking and choosing parts of the bible to believe often ends with people taking things out of context.

Then the question of bible rewrites arises.

This sounds like fodder for a new thread. Any takers?

"Are you the Judean Peoples Front?'

"Piss off. We're the people's Front of Judea."

Posted by katwoman Sorry for the long delay in this reply.

I must also appologize for the long delay to this reply. It's been a busy few weeks.

Romans 1:24-27 clearly says sex within the same gender is abnormal and sinful. http://www.biblega...24-27;&version=31;

Romans 1:21-23

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

The preceding passage modifies the text in 24-27. Even 24 refers to God changing the people to do these things.
Here, the punishment for idolatry and thinking themselves greater than God is for heterosexuals to be forced to be homosexuals. It refers to men and women to being turned away from natural urges towards those against their natures.

Genesis 2:24 clearly says marriage is to be between a man and a woman (and, the whole Bible is very clear that sex outside of marriage is wrong). http://www.biblega...02:24;&version=31;

Genesis 2:24 refers to monogomous committed relations. The absense of same sex committed relationships within a marriage is explained that the two individuals being refered to were different sexes. Absolutely, the Bible condemns sex outside of marriage. It does not, in this passage, make any comment about who is involved in such a marriage.

Genesis 18:20 mentions the sinfulness of Sodom (from where we get our word "s odomy"). http://www.biblega...20-21;&version=31;

Only recently (since 1850's) has it referred to only anal sex. Sodomy used to refer to the many sins of Sodom such as unjustness towards fellow men, attempted gang rape, sexual immorality (adultery, bestiality, etc), impiety towards God, inhospitality towards strangers, failure of the wealthy to provide for the less fortunate, pride, etc. (source Josephus, 96 AD, Antiquities 1.11.1)

Genesis 19 show an example: the men of Sodom wanting to have sex with Lot's two visitors, implying that rampant homosexuality was one of the main sins. And these guys were struck blind by angels for their intentions -- obviously God's stamp of disapproval.

Actually, this was gang rape, not homosexuality. Indicating that sexual immorality was at issue, not homosexuality. Also, since the sins of Sodom were greivious, attempting the gang rape of messengers of God was more the straw that broke the camel's back rather than the root cause.

Well, whatever the Bible says or doesn't say about being gay, I really think that the sin of Sodom was somewhat worse than that. After all, San Francisco (just for an example) has a large gay population, and it has not yet been annihilated in a rain of fire and brimstone. Therefore I rather think something much worse was going on.

The Bible does say that being gay is a sin. Well guess what, it also says that everybody, every single body ever, is a sinner too. Much as I hate to say it, that includes me. It advises you not to try to take the mote from someone else's eye before you take the plank from your own. All have sinned. All fall short of the glory of God. All are deserving of Hell. This nice straight boy deserves to be burning right along side his gay brother. I may not be gay, but I've done plenty of other things in my life that I'm pretty sure God didn't like. I don't think we need to be caught up so much in *what* is a sin, as we should be thankful that God forgives sins. Otherwise, the gay and the straight would both be doomed. Thanks to God's grace, however, the gay and the straight can both be saved. End of story. Bye bye. See ya later.

I'll confess that I have never watched SpongeBob and have no idea what his sexual orientation is, or if, being a cartoon character, he even has one.