Posted by katwoman Cool! Whatever I believe is true! Wow, my life will ROCK from now on!

Funny, I though your life was supposed to rock if you blindly follow the orders of the Vatican. From many of your posts, you've given up the right to think in favour of blindly following faith.

Don't know anything about the Vatican, but hey, if you want me to follow my faith blindly, I will! At least in your mind.

Posted by Curious_George That is the last thing I would put my trust in.

Well, semantically, believing in something and trusting in something are on opposite sides of the equation.

I said I believe in humanity, not that I think it's imbued with supernatural powers. I just credit human agency more than divine intervention.

And yes, whatever you believe is your own reality. I really don't care what your reality is, especially your 'spiritual' reality, until you start condemning others and committing violence in the name of something completely subjective and narcissistic.

Posted by honorabright And yes, whatever you believe is your own reality.

Sure, but is it ultimately true? Can everyone's own realities all be true at the same time?

Posted by honorabright I really don't care what your reality is, especially your 'spiritual' reality, until you start condemning others and committing violence in the name of something completely subjective and narcissistic.

Yeah...that whole 'moral relativism' thing is tricky.

Check out the FOX News interview with the representative from the Westboro Baptist Church.

http://www.thatvid...com/view/2178.html

Posted by katwoman Sure, but is it ultimately true? Can everyone's own realities all be true at the same time?

I didn't say anything about truth. Truth is subjective, reality isn't.

And yeah, I'm familiar with Westboro antics. That lady, in particular, has awful kamma. She deserves a donkey punch.

Posted by honorabright Truth is subjective

That answers my question.

If you define God as the god of Abraham - AKA the christian god, then as an atheist I am bound by scientific principles to say that it is possible, just very, very unlikely.

Any theory can be disproven in science - that is the heart of scientific philosophy. It is "possible" to disprove the theory of evolution, but to do so you would have to invalidate a century of scientifically valid facts of evolution - there is always some fool who tries to say that gaps in the fossil record do this or carbon dating is flawed because it does not work on granite (no biological sediment, therefore no carbon-14 to decay) , but I digress...

All the so-called philosophical arguments fail to prove or disprove gods existence, and the ignorance of christian dogma is the same tautological garbage that cannot stand up to any scientific scrutiny whatsoever.

It is patently wrong to say that god must exist because he cannot be proved to not exist. God does not exist simply because you want him/her to exist. You can't prove that there is not a vogon constructor fleet coming to destroy the earth, do you now believe that there is one?

So the fact that there is absolutely no valid proof that god exists, leads me to believe that there is no god. I'll keep an open mind, but so far no one has produced this god dude/babe.

If you are a christian, then in a word, we are both atheists: I don't believe your god exists for the same reasons that you don't believe zeuss or the sun god don't exist.

Someone layed the whole jesus as proof thing on me, but the historical facts show that even the existence of jesus is unlikely - he was just made up by people. Why is the only mention of jesus in scripture show up at least 100 years after he was said to have lived? Why are there so many mythical characters (mythra, etc) of the same era written about with many of the same characteristics (born under a star, wise men attended birth, killed by followers and reincarnated, etc)? Not the "devil counterfeited the messiah in advance argument"? According to some christian scholars, the whole of christianity is explained by the precarious position that the devil made all these lookalikes to mess with our minds. That is akin to saying that spiderman, aquaman, wonderwoman and batman are all comic book characters, but superman, no, he's real. The bible is no more proof that jesus walked the earth that a comic book is proof that some guy from krypton can fly and look through walls.

Is the bible the one true word of god? Why did he get a bunch of fools that lack credibility and consistency to write it? Why is it wrong in so many places? Is the bible allegorical? Then why did this god not just say what he meant? What about all the killing of homosexuals and subjugation of women? Should we just ignore those parts and only take the parts we think are valid in the 21st century?

Historically speaking the christian church has been consistently wrong. To deny this would be to exhibit an encyclopedic ignorance of the history of this planet. The inquisition? Shroud of Turin? The two tonnes of shards of the one true cross? The crusades? Sun rotating around the earth? Salem witch trials? The holocaust (and the Vaticans complicity, or at the very least looking the other way why the third reich got rid of the evil jews), beliefs about medicine that helped spread the plague? The catholic church spreading AIDS in africa through it's 14th century view of birth control and opposition to condoms?

I have seen pits filled with murdered children. Why would a benevolent god allow this to happen? God works in mysterious ways? Is he not omnipotent? If god was, by christianity's definition, who he is supposed to be, why would he create evil - to give us freewill?

"the church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow, than in the church," Ferdinand Magellan

So, the bible is invalid proof, philosophy offers nothing, and science can offer only realistic alternatives to explain the mysteries of the universe, which leads us to what? Just have faith? What does that mean? believe because you want to? If you believe, then you won't go to hell, and you will live forever and be forgiven for all you sins? All I have to do is make that one (unprovable, and scientifically invalid) assumption - that leap of faith. Sign me up. How horrible would you life be, if you had to be a good person for your own reasons - not jesus'. What if life is all we get - is it any less valuable? What if god did not create fjords? Are they less beautiful? What if god did not design a hummingbird? Is it any less wonderful?

I believe that life evolved from the elements, based on scientific proofs put forth over centuries of experimentation. I believe that each day another "mystery" of the universe is explained by science. My christian friend believes that if you say the right words over a cracker and some grape juice you are eating the flesh of jesus and drinking his blood and that fags should be stoned.

I can sit here and tell you that there is no god and jesus never existed. According to the bible the only unforgiveable sin is denying the holy spirit. So, I'm out of your heaven for good now. Why would you want to be part of a group whose central principle is to exclude others. Why is this god not shutting me up?

Posted by tekriter Why is this god not shutting me up?

He must have a keen sense of humor.

Lets get to the heart of your question:

"The Christian God is defined as a personal being who knows everything. According to Christians, personal beings have free will.

In order to have free will, you must have more than one option, each of which is avoidable. This means that before you make a choice, there must be a state of uncertainty during a period of potential: you cannot know the future. Even if you think you can predict your decision, if you claim to have free will, you must admit the potential (if not the desire) to change your mind before the decision is final.

A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty." It knows its choices in advance. This means that it has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore lacks free will. Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.

THEREFORE, THE CHRISTIAN GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

Some people deny that humans have free will; but all Christians claim that God himself, "in three persons," is a free personal agent, so the argument holds.

Others will object that God, being all-powerful, can change his mind. But if he does, then he did not know the future in the first place. If he truly knows the future, then the future is fixed and not even God can change it. If he changes his mind anyway, then his knowledge was limited. You can't have it both ways: no being can be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

A more subtle objection is that God "knows" what he is going to do because he always acts in accordance with his nature, which does not diminish his free agency. God might claim, for example, that he will not tell a lie tomorrow--because he always tells the truth. God could choose outside of his nature, but he never does.

But what does "nature of God" mean? To have a nature is to have limits. The "nature" that restricts humans is our physical environment and our genetics; but the "nature" of a supernatural being must be something else. It is inappropriate to say that the "nature" of a being without limits bears the same relationship to the topic of free will that human nature does.

Free will requires having more than one option, a desire to choose, freedom to choose (lack of obstacles), power to accomplish the choice (strength and aptitude), and the potential to avoid the option. "Strength and aptitude" puts a limit on what any person is "free" to do. No human has the free will to run a one-minute mile, without mechanical aid. We are free to try, but we will fail. All of our choices, and our desires as well, are limited by our nature; yet we can still claim free will (those of us who do) because we don't know our future choices.

If God always acts in accordance with his nature (whatever that means), then he still must have more than one viable option that does not contradict his nature if he is to claim free will. Otherwise, he is a slave to his nature, like a robot, and not a free personal agent.

What would the word "option" mean to a being who created all options?

Some say that "free will" with God does not mean what it means with humans. But how are we to understand this? What conditions of free will would a Christian scrap in order to craft a "free agency" for God? Multiple options? Desire? Freedom? Power? Potential to avoid?

Perhaps desire could be jettisoned. Desire implies a lack, and a perfect being should lack nothing. But it would be a very strange "person" with no needs or desires. Desire is what prompts a choice in the first place. It also contributes to assessing whether the decision was reasonable. Without desire, choices are willy-nilly, and not true decisions at all. Besides, the biblical god expressed many desires.

No objection saves the Christian God: he does not exist. Perhaps a more modest deity can be imagined: one that is not both personal and all-knowing, both all-knowing and all-powerful, both perfect and free. But until a god is defined coherently, and then proven to exist with evidence and sound reasoning, it is sensible not to think that such a being exists."

Dan Barker - ex christian evangelical priest (he's going to hell too!)

tekriter I have 1 question for you before I state my response.

Did you post this simply because no one rose to the bait of your last post?

I don't mean it as a criticism, I'd just like to know if you're looking for an argument or if you're interested in a debate.

Because I'm not interested in giving you my take on your post if all you're going to do is rant and rail that I'm imagining God.

Well, I suppose it it quite telling that no person felt able to rebut any of my points. I always prefer a debate to an argument if you accept that the word argument connotes an aggressive, emotionally led debate.

A debate consists of a set of arguments that can then be examined for their value.

I am serious when I state that I have an open mind and I firmly promise that I will accept the existence of god when and if I am provided with verifiable, tangible proof.

I am interested in hearing your thoughts, however I would be very interested in examining your proofs of gods existence.

Perhaps you would like to respond to any or all of my points?

I didn't reply to your first post because I remember out last debate which, from my point of view, was little more than you calling me stupid for having faith. and I thought Trixi's response to your last post was fabulous.

I will respond to at least part of this, but not right now as I'm at work and can't really put as much thought into it as I'd like to.

I'll post something soon.

Posted by journeylady I didn't reply to your first post because I remember out last debate which, from my point of view, was little more than you calling me stupid for having faith. and I thought Trixi's response to your last post was fabulous. I will respond to at least part of this, but not right now as I'm at work and can't really put as much thought into it as I'd like to. I'll post something soon.

I may have said stupid, but faith (often referred to as blind faith) is not proof of anything. I think that most intelligent people would agree that believing something with no logical basis is not the smartest way to conduct business.

If I believe that I am rich, because I got a publisher's sweepstakes letter that told me I am rich,(despite the FACT that my chequing account has a balance of $235.56, and the FACT that my paycheck is not much bigger each week and the FACT that my bills are much bigger) I would have some difficulty convincing the Porshe dealership to give me a Boxster on faith - no matter how much I want one.

If I have absolute faith that there is an alien spaceship coming to destroy the planet because I saw a shooting star, and tell everyone I meet what I believe; I may just get a few people to believe it as well (a la Jehova's Witnesses or John Smith and his golden tablets). The majority of the world would label me as crazy or stupid. I would be ridiculed for making all of my lifes decisions based on faith of alien invasion. It would be perfectly logical to stop saving for the future or start smoking based on my assumption that I only had a week to live.

If you resort to special pleading (ie, the above is fantastical, but you shall not question religious faith esle be labeled intolerant - are you intolerant of my alien theory?), I would like to know why religious faith has a different set of rules for proof than any other fantastical idea. I demand to know in cases where it is used to try force me to swallow it - prayer in public school, banning gay marriage on the grounds that god is against it, etc.

How is your faith any different? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm very interested in how religious persons continue to believe in a first century view of the world, despite all the evidence to the contrary and absolutely no evidence to support the existence of a god.

if you want to keep this organized, why not lay out the five or ten reasons why you believe that god exists or jesus was anything but myth. I'll respond. I'll be polite, but I will hold up anything you posit as proof to the tests of logic and reason. If your beliefs can't hold up to any scrutiny, you can't just hide behind faith - the because I said so argument.

I am afraid that even if I can show you through logic and scholarly debate that your beliefs may be baseless - that you would not be willing to accept that you could be wrong. I will praise allah and sing hosanas if you show me god. I would love for him to exist or just to know the origin of the universe. As a human being I can't understand any desire to not know truth. I could call that stupid, but many thinkers far greater than me have resorted to faith, perhaps out of fear of the unknown.

Posted by tekriter I am afraid that even if I can show you through logic and scholarly debate that your beliefs may be baseless - that you would not be willing to accept that you could be wrong.

Well...it goes both ways. A debate (scholarly or otherwise) doesn't prove or disprove anything.

A debate designed to prove or disprove the existence of God™ is futile.

It will not prove the existence of anything, but it will highlight all of the arguments.

It is most useful.


There are several large scale academic debates at US universities each year between the religious camp and the free thinkers.

It is important in our society, with all of our freedoms and so called rights, to examine the ideas that people claim to be truth and hold them up to at least the meagre candle of debate.

Of course you are right, no debate will convince the unconvincible. Religion has evolved into a tautology that is impossible to disprove. (god works in mysterious ways, god helps those that help themselves) This makes all those religious arguments philosophically invalid. You can show a devout christian all of the lies and mistakes the church has made and all the historical evidence that the church has put forth to "prove" that christ was a historical figure to be false and yet they will still believe - because they want to. EG you can't prove that there is not an alien child controlling the universe like a train set, ergo the child must exist - is not a valid argument. You could, however, put forth a large number of arguments that demonstrate that the above child is astronomically unlikely to exist based on empirical observations and philosophical arguments that are shown to be valid. We now know the mechanism for the movement of objects in space,and there is simply no evidence of control. This does not "prove", in an absolute manner, that the alien does not exist, but it will show that, for any free thinking intelligent individual that the origin of the idea is purely fantastical and baseless. Most of us would now choose to believe that there is no child.

In our society you are free to choose what you believe. There is a thin line, however, between personal belief and forcing those beliefs on others. You would all laugh if I suggested that we should change public school curriculum to teach the alternative theory of train set control of the planets and to pray each day to an alien child. The schoolboard would likely refuse to even add my idea to the agenda. Why? Are they not tolerant of my beliefs?

How is teaching the baseless theory of creationism in school any different? What evidence is there to support it? Not one valid argument has ever been made. The bible is not proof of anything. Christian "scholars" even admit the fallibility of gods's word. It is the best selling book in the world, so it must be true, right? How many Trainsetoligists do I need before we have to mention the alien child in parliament?

Christ did not die on the cross. In all likelihood he never existed and was a myth propagated by people that desperately wanted to believe that there was something better than earthbound misery and servitude. That is what I believe based on a dearth of evidence. If you show me real evidence of the christ or a god, I'll buy that book.

The silence of the religious right (not right) is significant, is it not?

I cannot prove the existence of God but I do know for a fact there is alot more to this world than meets the eye. Here's some food for thought...About 12 years ago, I was going about 55 MPH on a freeway overpass with my daughter. The truck in front of me slammed on his brakes for no apparent reason and as I tried to avoid hitting the back of the truck, my car spun out of control. I did a 180 and hit one guard rail with such force it flung my car all the way back across 4 lanes of traffic, hitting the car behind me with the front bumper of my car and doing another 180 hitting the opposite rail before finally coming to a stop. Each time my car hit something, it felt as though there was an invisible force field cushioning the car and preventing it from being damaged and us from being hurt. When we got out of the car, the couple I had hit pulled up behind us in their brand new Cadillac with what ended up being over a thousand dollars in damage. There was not a scratch or dent anywhere on my car. While I stood shaking my head, baffled at how this could be, my 5 year old piped in and asked me if I had seen the angels protecting the car...

About 6 years ago, I was diagnosed with a rare and extremely aggressive cancer which is almost always fatal and only 1 percent of those that get it live past 5 years. On my way home from the doctor, thinking I was going to die, I heard an audible voice tell me that I would be healed and to have faith. My doctors are still trying to figure out why I am still alive and continue to have no evidence of disease.

I have about ten other stories very similar to these which tell me that something is going on here and someone is in control. My religious beliefs explain these occurences but science cannot thus far.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I don't see any of that as evidence of anything. You did hit the last line bang on, though. Science has not explained a lot THUS FAR.

You don't not know that for a FACT. A fact is testable and repeatable. Why did no one from Harvard come down and recreate the accident? No one believed you! Had experts examined every aspect of the scene and determined that the facts supported some action and reaction that could not be explained by science, then you might have a point. What you have is a feeling and a baseless belief based on your overwhelming desire for there to be a supernatural power.

I was rear ended by a pontiac in my volvo. There was no visible damage to the volvo, yet the pontiac minivan had $2800 dollars damage. No angels here, my car had better construction and physics on it's side.

I was in a car that skidded off a cliff and hit a tree. The cops said we should be dead - but we lived! He said that almost every accident he had witnessed like this the occupants were dead. Miracle? Nope. Is it unlikely that we were totally unhurt. Yes. Impossible? Nope.

I knew a kid in grade school that was diagnosed with Leukemia. His mom took him to church and had him miracled better. He was leukemia free for all of the next four years (unlikely, but not impossible as he was not allowed to see a doctor, but only a church official). He died in the fifth year or symptoms that were remarkably like leukemia, but his death was caused by his lack of faith according to his mother at his funeral. Miracle? Nope. Why would she continue to believe that she had miracled her son better? Well, just for faith she gets forgiven for her sins and gets to see her son again AND live forever? Now how much would you pay?

Why are you not famous? Is there an article about your case in the New England journal of Medicine, or perhaps The Lancet?

Do things happen to people that medical science cannot explain (yet) ? Sure. Did god do it? Well, there is no evidence for this, so it is unlikely.

Have you ever heard of a self fulfilling prophecy?

Of course, if you can prove any of your extraordinary claims, then I would love to see it. I am a skeptic, but I would love to know the secrets of the universe as much as the next person. Otherwise all you have is a collection of stories and your feelings about a supernatural force.

You can believe and be happy with the things you believe, just don't ask my children to pray in school based on your stories and feelings.

I hear ya, Trixi.

People who are not interested in anything other than solid, tangible "PROOF" will never stop to consider the possibility of miracles or other things that take faith to recognize.



Which is why I've nearly stopped posting here... though I'm always happy to talk to those who are truly interested another point of view.

Posted by tekriter Why did no one from Harvard come down and recreate the accident? No one believed you! Had experts examined every aspect of the scene and determined that the facts supported some action and reaction that could not be explained by science, then you might have a point

I guess if I had thought about it at the time, I might have called Harvard or someone and left my car untouched in the middle of the freeway in rush hour traffic so scientists could evaluate the situation, but I didn't. Silly me.

Why are you not famous? Is there an article about your case in the New England journal of Medicine, or perhaps The Lancet?

How do you know I am not famous in medical circles?

I am a skeptic, but I would love to know the secrets of the universe as much as the next person. Otherwise all you have is a collection of stories and your feelings about a supernatural force.

Believe it or not, I am a skeptic too. I never claimed to have the answers, just giving my personal opinion based on my own experiences.

You can believe and be happy with the things you believe, just don't ask my children to pray in school based on your stories and feelings.

I don't believe prayer has a place in public schools so don't worry.