Posted by journeylady I believe that the bible was written by fallible men inspired by the word of God. Those translating and studying it are also fallible men so it's very true that we man have parts of the bible wrong.

Inspired is meaningless. If they were inspired by anything it was ignorance and superstition. The bible is a gap filler and the gap was knowledge of the natural world. They manufactured explanations for things they could not explain and feared. The bible exists in many mistranslations of the original texts, which themsleves are rife with errors, contradictions and downright nasty things to say. We undoubtedly have have many parts of the bible wrong and clearly many parts of the bible are just wrong no matter the translation. There is no evidence of god in any aspect of the bible.

Posted by journeylady I believe that the fact that people view these simple things as right or wrong displays that God's laws are written on our hearts. If a man acts lawlessly or imorally usually he tries to hide it, meaning he believes what he's done is wrong meaning the law is still written on his heart, he's just choosing to ignore it. There ARE those who don't seem to understand the difference but they are the exception rather than the rule and I don't know how to explain them.

What about islamic people? Their god, the same as your god, reportedly, thinks that it is just and morally right to crash airpalnes into buildings filled with innocent men women and children. There are billions of muslims, many of whom tacitly approve of this thinking. That's a lot of exceptions.

How do you explain normative change? We (you) used to torture people just for inquiring into the nature of the stars, but now we "know" that is wrong? The church never tried to hide their torture. Why is it wrong now, but it wasn't then?


We have a lot of studies on the creation of values and norms and we have some good explanations that follow logic - i'll get some for you later. Why can't people be good, or bad, without a supernatural deity at work?

Posted by journeylady I believe that there are a lot of deplorable things in human history and that God has allowed them to happen because he gave man free will. There are also lots of very good things in human history as well like a group of 10 year old girls who last month cut off all their hair to donate to cancer patients for wigs for example. I'm not ignorant of history, but simply the continued existance of the jewish culture and people after the number of times people have tried to exterminate them says to ME there is a God. I'm not about to believe it will say as much to you but thats what it says to me. ;]

Why did so amny of god's messengers commit so many attrocities in his name? Why would he allow this? Clearly he is not benevolent nor all powerful. That brings into question just what is god? What can he do? You can't even describe god, then he must not exist.

Perhaps they exterminators were just not good enough. they catholic church didn't think so and just looked the other way. What if someone wiped out an entire group of people? Would that mean god did not exist?

Posted by journeylady I believe it is. Most Definately. I'm an LCC Lutheran and that's doctrinal for us.

So if I just forget everything we have learned about the universe and make a leap of faith that there is this god, I can do whatever I want with my freewill and will still be saved? The slippery slope argument is invalid, but this gets as close to a good one as I have seen. You can't do anything to me on earth, for I believe, now stand back and let me rape and kill and go to Nickleback concerts, for I am saved.

Posted by journeylady I believe the only just person is Christ Jesus and through him I shall be saved by faith alone.

Yea verily! But what if Jesus was just a myth? Turns out even christian scholars can't find any evidence of this christ, but lots of other mythical beings are written about too. Zeuss, Apollo, Heel!

http://www.ffrf.or.../bybarker/rise.php

Posted by journeylady I believe that, though You appear to be wrath free right now, were judgement day to come tomorrow you wouldn't be then.

Yeah, I'm not worried. It also proves nothing, other than God is powerless to shut me up.

Posted by journeylady I can honestly say I don't understand this one fully. I believe that God attempts to show himself to all but some people close their eyes to it. God shows himself, believers see him.

That's another way of saying that if you want to believe, you can. Emotionalism.

Posted by journeylady again I don't understand this fully. I can clearly see evidence of God's creation of the world in a newborn Baby, in a thunderhead and in a single leaf among thousands of other things. I know God created all of these things. I can't explain why you can't.

Wonder is not proof of god. I can explain where babies come from and I can even show you nuerobiological reasons why you love them and they are beautiful. I know that there is a perfectly rational explanation for all of these beutiful things - and there is no god there unless you want to see a god there.

Posted by journeylady No. I believe Man's reason is flawed and without the Spirit we can't find God at all. We are incapable of finding God. God reveals himself to us and all we can do is turn away.

If he existed, we could find him.

Posted by journeylady I accept this but the oposite must be accepted at all. Because the big bang theory of the creation of the universe has not been proven and therefor the concept of creation should be given as much credence according to your 'unlikely does not equal impossible' argument.

Wrong! The lack of proof of specific points means we just have not found them YET! There is no evidence to suggest creation. See The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. No evidence means no credence. Let's hear what you think is evidence of creation?

Posted by journeylady That's assuming God designed the universe to be efficient.

then he is imperfect and not god.

Posted by journeylady When Man fell God punished Eve by making Childbirth a hideously painful process.

Nonetheless, if you try to take the evidence of design route, we are not well designed at all. We are inefficient and vulnerable to the elements. The "design": of our bodies seems to support selective adaptation over design - if we were designed, we were designed by an idiot.

Posted by journeylady I'm not a scientist, nor a theologist. This, as I've already said gets way over my head. I'm sorry but I can't address this one.

Neither can the church.

Posted by journeylady This isn't all that convincing an argument but I kind of agree with it because randon stuff doesn't look all that pleasing to me. I can't imagine that the beauty in the sunset or the delicacy of the veins of a leaf or in a flower is just a happy accidnet. I believe it had to have some kind of creator. You can dismiss it out of hand if you want but I think it's a valid argument.

You can't imagine it. By your own addmision you are not a scientist or a theologan, yet you suggest that because your limited intellect, at this time and place in history, can't conceptualize the rational explanation for it you are granted an exception in the rules of lagic and reason to make up an explanation? This is know as the argument from ignorance and it is the crux of many peoples belief - and it is wrong.

Posted by journeylady I'm not a philosopher anymore than I'm a scientist or a theologist and so (yet again) I really can't counter your argument here. I barely understand the concept. Sorry.

The concept is yours, you posted it. It is absurd for the analogy, it must be absurd for the original argument. The analogy is valid and has withstood the test of centuries of debate amongst philosophers.

Posted by journeylady no. I really don't. but I still believe in God ;]

Belief is one of the most interesting subjects. There are good psychological and nuerochmical reasons why you would believe unreasonable things in the face of so much contrary evidence. The danger is not to you, but to those who pay for actions committed based on fantastic ideas about the world.

Posted by journeylady THis is what I believe. I'm not sure it's right, I'm not sure it even makes sence but this is what I believe: You're using this argument in a time based scenerio. If you accept the statement that God exists outside of time than it becomes invalid. God HAS free will, God could make whatever decisions he wants and does. He knows the infinate different consequences and actions that those choices will bring about and choses what he wants. But the choice is still his. He exists outside of time.

Nothing that we know of can exist outside of time. Anything that is said to exist outside of time is pure concept and therfore not real - the point of our debate. it is an intersting argument to pursue - I'll try to get back to it to show you the entire argument against your out of time premise.

Posted by journeylady As I've already mentioned I'm not a theologist but I do try and stand up for and explain my beliefs as best as I can. I took the previous post from my Synod's wed cylcopedia and if you'd like to check out anything else from it the site address is Here This is a strictly old school Lutheran interpretation, so other people may have counter arguments for you. I have to say though your very aggressive stance at this discussion is daunting and off-putting, you are at least willing to HAVE the discussion and that at least gives me hope for you. Though I don't know if you'd apprecate it, I pray that the Spirit opens your eyes to God.

You can pray for me, but you will be wasting your time. I once existed on the inside and made a choice for reason and free thought. I am awake and no longer part of the matrix.

Your ideas, however, will be bulldozed by the persistence of time and the ever expanding knowledge of the universe. Reason must destroy religion and humanism will replace emotionalsim and dogma. The inevitable flow of history shows that we are slowly waking up from our own folly. Just look at the reformation and our concept of the earth being round.

Christianity is changing and maintaining a grip on the outdated view of the world will be much like trying to hold grains of sand in your hand in the surf. They will all be washed away by the ocean of reality. I just hope it is in my lifetime.

I apologize for my manner, but I'm intense and motivated by this topic. I feel betrayed and misled by the church and can't help but be offended by dogma.

more to follow. Thanks.

Posted by tekriter Oh, yeah, what evidence of design? There is no evidence of design...

What do you mean by this? That there is no direct evidence that some "higher power" made everything, or that things seem to have been too slipshod to have been "designed?" You've got to consider the possibility that there is a god, but a god that had faulty ideas when creating things. This is all assuming that god is really all-powerful and all-knowing etc. It could just be that he is more powerful and more knowing.

Posted by tekriter Why did so many of god's messengers commit so many attrocities in his name? Why would he allow this? Clearly he is not benevolent nor all powerful. That brings into question just what is god? What can he do? You can't even describe god, then he must not exist.

Geez, I can't describe Tokyo, but I'm quite sure it's there. That's a terrible argument. Again, who's to say god's not all powerful, just because he doesn't do something you want him to do? I must say, I don't think he's benevolent. God is wrathful and angry. I'm not entirely sure why. It's like parents who reinforce bad behavior and then get pissed when the kid burns the house down.

Then you've got the whole "why do bad things happen to good people" thing. Many Christians go with the education through trials idea. If you don't have crappy things happen to you, you'll never appreciate what you've got.

Posted by tekriter then he is imperfect and not god.

First, I have to say that just because someone makes something that isn't perfect, that doesn't mean that the creator of that thing isn't perfect..... It means that perhaps this creator made things in a certain way on purpose. To teach something perhaps.

Then again there's the possibility of an imperfect creator. Just because god seems greater than humans, doesn't necessarily make god great just greater.

Posted by tekriter Nothing that we know of can exist outside of time. Anything that is said to exist outside of time is pure concept and therfore not real - the point of our debate. it is an intersting argument to pursue - I'll try to get back to it to show you the entire argument against your out of time premise.

Nothing that we know of. So as you've said, it just hasn't been proven. Just because it's still theory doesn't mean it's false. Please continue this argument, I'm interested.


Sorry all that was jumbled, but I'm having a difficult time knitting my thoughts together today. I can clarify where needed.

Irish, look at it this way. If you've studied any first year chemistry where introductory quantum physics was discussed, you will recall Plank and the blackbody radiation theorem. It was discovered that when an elemental metallic sheet or plate was bombarded with light at a specific frequency and wavelength, electrons were ejected and thus, a measurable electric current was generated. Plank could not see the light as it existed outside of the visible human spectrum. He theorized it existed. Fast forward a decade or more later ( don't have any of my chem texts here) and these frequencies of light were proven to exist as they exposed film plates when they were exposed to only those wavelengths. Science did prove this theory correct as it has in so may other ways (particle physics, nuclear physics, medicine). As new questions and theories arise, in time they are answered and proven. The origins of humankind and the universe are finding more validity from scientific research than from religious dogma and ancient writings.

Posted by tekriter I apologize for my manner, but I'm intense and motivated by this topic.

Your intensity is pretty evident, however no one on this forum is going to prove or disprove the existence of God no matter how long we banter back and forth.

Posted by tekriter I feel betrayed and misled by the church and can't help but be offended by dogma.

This would explain your motivation, but why the harsh criticism of those who choose to believe?

No offense tekriter but you present nothing but the same old tired arguments that Christians have heard from pseudo-intellectuals for years. Trying to convince a bunch of people on a web forum that God doesn't exist with two-page long posts and ridiculous generalizations smacks of someone who needs a little attention.

Posted by Father Maurice Lester The origins of humankind and the universe are finding more validity from scientific research than from religious dogma and ancient writings.

I cannot argue with you there m'dear. Not one bit.

Posted by tekriter Inspired is meaningless. If they were inspired by anything it was ignorance and superstition.

When I say inspired what I mean is that God put the words into the men and they wrote down what he wanted them to. Not that the thought of God in their minds was a nice one and it made them want to write.

This is not something you can prove didn't happen or I can prove did so I'm done with this point. There is no way to change either of our minds here.

Posted by tekriter What about islamic people? Their god, the same as your god, reportedly, thinks that it is just and morally right to crash airpalnes into buildings filled with innocent men women and children. There are billions of muslims, many of whom tacitly approve of this thinking. That's a lot of exceptions.

Islamic and Muslim extremists are to Islamics and Muslims as the KKK are to Christians.

Most Islamics don't take that interpretation of their God, just like most Christians don't take the same imterpretation. You can take the same extreme views of any large group of people. they will have a fringe. Your argument is invalid.

Posted by tekriter How do you explain normative change? We (you) used to torture people just for inquiring into the nature of the stars, but now we "know" that is wrong? The church never tried to hide their torture. Why is it wrong now, but it wasn't then?

It was wrong then. I will concede this one though I still maintain God's law is written on our hearts. I don't know why the church, and many other people (It certainly wasn't JUST the church who did horrific things) did the things they did.

Posted by tekriter We have a lot of studies on the creation of values and norms and we have some good explanations that follow logic - i'll get some for you later. Why can't people be good, or bad, without a supernatural deity at work?

I'm sure they could, and I'd be curious to read these studies. But I will still hold to my God.

Posted by tekriter Why did so amny of god's messengers commit so many attrocities in his name? Why would he allow this? Clearly he is not benevolent nor all powerful. That brings into question just what is god? What can he do? You can't even describe god, then he must not exist.

1. God gave Man free will. We can do whatever we want. and the earth is the Devil's realm.

2. No. My God is not all benevolent. My God is an angry God, a vengeful God and a jealous God. He's also a loving God. But he's not all sunshine and puppies. And yes. he is all powerful. but just because he CAN do something, doesn't mean that he will.

3. As IrishLady said being able to describe something is not a precursor to that thing existing. Your argument is invalid.

I'm done with this point. There is no way to change either of our minds here either.

Posted by tekriter Perhaps they exterminators were just not good enough. they catholic church didn't think so and just looked the other way. What if someone wiped out an entire group of people? Would that mean god did not exist?

There are several groups of people that were completely wiped out. little subgroups just like the Jews. there were the philistines and they're not around anymore. But the Jews are God's chosen people and its very improbable that they would have survived this long without help.

and before you say improbable isn't impossible, yes I know. you've already given this argument. if we're done here then...

Posted by tekriter So if I just forget everything we have learned about the universe and make a leap of faith that there is this god, I can do whatever I want with my freewill and will still be saved? The slippery slope argument is invalid, but this gets as close to a good one as I have seen. You can't do anything to me on earth, for I believe, now stand back and let me rape and kill and go to Nickleback concerts, for I am saved.

NO! What an incredible way you have to twisting around what I've said. How the hell did you get that from my post? All I said was that I believe we are saved by faith, meaning we can't be saved by good works. There is nothing I can do to save myself. All I can do is be saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Posted by tekriter Yea verily! But what if Jesus was just a myth? Turns out even christian scholars can't find any evidence of this christ, but lots of other mythical beings are written about too. Zeuss, Apollo, Heel!

Here's something for proof of Jesus.
http://www.gnmagaz...gn44/existence.htm

Posted by tekriter http://www.ffrf.or.../bybarker/rise.php

Y'know for someone who tells us(Those christians who have pointed you to websites that have more information than we can give) that our websites are a lot of propaganda, you sure do post your own propaganda readily enough.

Posted by tekriter Yeah, I'm not worried. It also proves nothing, other than God is powerless to shut me up.

God isn't interested in shutting you up. he gave you free will to be an angry passionate thinking man. Just as he gave me the free will to be just as passionate in my beliefs.

Posted by tekriter That's another way of saying that if you want to believe, you can. Emotionalism. Wonder is not proof of god. I can explain where babies come from and I can even show you nuerobiological reasons why you love them and they are beautiful. I know that there is a perfectly rational explanation for all of these beutiful things - and there is no god there unless you want to see a god there. If he existed, we could find him.

Ok. fine. again I can't figure out how to prove to you God's existence in this form (in fact as I've already mentioned I don't believe there is a way at all for me to prove it to you) So I give up on this point. I'm done with this one.

Posted by tekriter Wrong! The lack of proof of specific points means we just have not found them YET! There is no evidence to suggest creation. See The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. No evidence means no credence. Let's hear what you think is evidence of creation?

I'm sorry but that's just crap. saying that my unprovable theory must be discounted because there's no evidence when your unprovable theory must be given credence because there's no God involved in it is just wrong. either they are both possible or neither are. your choice.

Posted by tekriter then he is imperfect and not god.

No. just because he's perfect doesn't mean he has to make everything perfectly.

Posted by tekriter Nonetheless, if you try to take the evidence of design route, we are not well designed at all. We are inefficient and vulnerable to the elements. The "design": of our bodies seems to support selective adaptation over design - if we were designed, we were designed by an idiot.

I don't know what God's plan was in our design. I can't know the mind of God.

Posted by tekriter You can't imagine it. By your own addmision you are not a scientist or a theologan, yet you suggest that because your limited intellect, at this time and place in history, can't conceptualize the rational explanation for it you are granted an exception in the rules of lagic and reason to make up an explanation? This is know as the argument from ignorance and it is the crux of many peoples belief - and it is wrong.

Please stop making conclusions ok? you can go ahead and say it's an argument from ignorance. you can say a lot of things (and do) But it's pretty rude to pepper your posts with 'it's wrong' you don't get to make that decision.

Posted by tekriter The concept is yours, you posted it. It is absurd for the analogy, it must be absurd for the original argument. The analogy is valid and has withstood the test of centuries of debate amongst philosophers.

The concept is the something I got from the Church I don't understand it. find am LCC Lutheran minister if you want to debate it further.

Posted by tekriter Belief is one of the most interesting subjects. There are good psychological and nuerochmical reasons why you would believe unreasonable things in the face of so much contrary evidence. The danger is not to you, but to those who pay for actions committed based on fantastic ideas about the world.

I believe because I have the Spirit within me. And it's a dangerous world. Not all of it comes from religion and not all of it from Christianity though I will admit that some horrible tihngs have been done in the name of God. I don't know for sure that they were or wern't God's will.

Posted by tekriter Nothing that we know of can exist outside of time. Anything that is said to exist outside of time is pure concept and therfore not real - the point of our debate. it is an intersting argument to pursue - I'll try to get back to it to show you the entire argument against your out of time premise.

as already mentioned 'that we know of' is the crux here. God is incomprehensable. there are lots of concepts that turned out to be real in science. why are they alright and not this one? your own argument can be turned against you here.

Posted by tekriter You can pray for me, but you will be wasting your time. I once existed on the inside and made a choice for reason and free thought. I am awake and no longer part of the matrix.

It's my time and I don't think it's a waste.

Posted by tekriter Your ideas, however, will be bulldozed by the persistence of time and the ever expanding knowledge of the universe. Reason must destroy religion and humanism will replace emotionalsim and dogma. The inevitable flow of history shows that we are slowly waking up from our own folly. Just look at the reformation and our concept of the earth being round.

You can believe that if you want. I don't.

Posted by tekriter Christianity is changing and maintaining a grip on the outdated view of the world will be much like trying to hold grains of sand in your hand in the surf. They will all be washed away by the ocean of reality. I just hope it is in my lifetime.

It won't be.
One of the reasons I love the Church I'm in is that it isn't changing. they call my church the 'church of the dark ages'because we still teach things that were taught over 400 years ago.

Posted by tekriter I apologize for my manner, but I'm intense and motivated by this topic. I feel betrayed and misled by the church and can't help but be offended by dogma.

The church is not God. that's all I can say to that. There are so many different denominations and I don't know that mine has it right, or that any church has it right, we're probably off in some respects. But God isn't the Church.

That's the big difference.

JL