http://whydoesgodh...utees.com/god1.htm

This is great. It's almost funny when dogmatic belief breaks down. Almost. It's also hard to forget things like the catholic church's stance on contraception in the face of the aids epidemic. But this is just funny.

evil cripples!

I found it interesting that that website was written by the same guy who is behind howstuffworks.com ("Marshall Brain"). I don't know why, but I was under the impression that he was conservative. Not that being conservative necessarily implies being religious, but I just didn't expect the guy to be a militant atheist .

DrDeke

why does he have to be militant?

Because he doesn't believe in x? If I insist that I don't believe in fairies am I a militant A-fairyist?

Are televangelists militant mono-theists? Are hindus militant poly-theists, or just the ones with websites?

Posted by tekriter Okay. I know the amputee thing is not fair. It's to hard to counter. Why don't you tell us how folks are supposed to decide what parts of the bible to ignore (due to violent suggestions, classifying women as possessions, or just plain being wrong) and what parts are the one true word of god?

Quoted from a seperate thread, but i'm moving it here because here is where it belongs.

I preface this, as usual, with the comment that everything I'm about to say is my own opinion, which is heavily influenced by the Lutheran Church Canada Doctrine.

God will always answer prayer. Sometimes the answer is no. The way it's explained to me is that God knows best.

Luke 11:11-13"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

As for the bible. All parts are the one true word of God. I make no apologies for any of it. I do not comprehend the mind of God, but I have Faith.

So God does hate amputees?

I love when you quote scripture. I got that book too.

And, just for the record, you support (or don't apologize for) slavery:

Leviticus 25:44-46
Thy bond-men and thy bond-maids which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you: of them shall ye buy bond-men and bond-maids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land. And they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession, they shall be your bond-man forever.

or for killing people for not observing the sabbath:

Numbers 15:35
And the Lord said unto Moses, The man [who was found picking up sticks on the sabbath] shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones.

Exodus 31:15
Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

and you don't apologize for human sacrifice:

Genesis 22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

or for killing unbelievers:

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. -- Deuteronomy 13:6-10

for lying:

1 Kings 22:21-22
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him .. I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.

or for incest:

Exodus 6:20
And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses.

for eating flying creeping things:

Leviticus 11:21-23
Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth; Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

for telling people that crime pays:

Psalm 73:3-7, 12
When I saw the prosperity of the wicked .... They have more than heart could wish .... Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.

for sacrificing animals:

Exodus 20:24
An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

or for being a woman and having an opinion:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

So, you have faith (which for reasonable people is defined as an excuse for believing in things that you have no reason to believe in - but really want to) that all of this is right and good?

Posted by journeylady God will always answer prayer. Sometimes the answer is no. The way it's explained to me is that God knows best.

"many believers will say, "God always answers prayers, but sometimes his answer is 'no.' If your prayer does not fit with God's will, then God will say 'no' to you." This feels odd because God's answer to every amputee is always "no" when it comes to regenerating lost limbs. Jesus says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." He does not say, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it, unless you are praying about an amputated limb, in which case I will always reject your prayer." Jesus also says, "Nothing will be impossible to you," and regenerating a limb should therefore be possible. The fact that God refuses to answer every prayer to regenerate a lost limb seems strange, doesn't it?" see the original link

Posted by tekriter So God does hate amputees?

Nope. I don't know why he won't spontaniously regrow a limb, possibly becuase he didn't build our bodies to be able to? It's one of those things I'll ask when I get to Heaven. Unfortunately I don't know that I'll be able to give you an answer at that point.

I love when you quote scripture. I got that book too. And, just for the record, you support (or don't apologize for) slavery: Leviticus 25:44-46 Thy bond-men and thy bond-maids which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you: of them shall ye buy bond-men and bond-maids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land. And they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession, they shall be your bond-man forever.

Nope, no argument there. The Bible does mention slavery and never decries it. I can't explain why, I don't like it, but still, God has reasons that I can not understand. It is said that you treat your slaves well...

But I admit it, this one bugs me.

or for killing people for not observing the sabbath: Numbers 15:35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man [who was found picking up sticks on the sabbath] shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones. Exodus 31:15 Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

These ones are examples of the laws set down to protect the Israelites. The laws were all fulfilled by Jesus, so the New testament makes this point moot.

and you don't apologize for human sacrifice: Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Way to take things out of context!
This wasn't about Human sacrifice in the least. God was testing Abraham's devotion. Issac wasn't killed, God never wanted Abraham to kill him.

or for killing unbelievers: If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. -- Deuteronomy 13:6-10

This quote doesn't say 'kill unbelievers' it says if someone tries to lure you awway from me, kill him. Harsh yes, not acceptable now to be sure. (again, Old Testment New Testament differences here) Again, this was one of God's rules to protect the Israelites.

for lying: 1 Kings 22:21-22 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him .. I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.

ok, long story short. There's this king, he's an ass and bad for his people. God got this spirit to go down, make the prophets lie so he'd go to war and be killed, then a good king could take over.

Yes, The lying happened.

or for incest: Exodus 6:20 And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses.

don't get this one myself but that was actually the custom of the time, to make sure she would be cared for...

for eating flying creeping things: Leviticus 11:21-23 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth; Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

Oh No! The bible says it's ok to eat animals that fly and that walk on four feet! Whatever shall we do!!!! You've got to be kidding! What is so wrong with the Bible saying we can eat flying creeping things?

for telling people that crime pays: Psalm 73:3-7, 12 When I saw the prosperity of the wicked .... They have more than heart could wish .... Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.

Beautiful editing job there, however you forgot this part:

Psalm 73: 17-19
till I entered the sanctuary of God;
then I understood their final destiny.

Surely you place them on slippery ground;
you cast them down to ruin.

How suddenly are they destroyed,
completely swept away by terrors!

Crime doesn't pay.

for sacrificing animals: Exodus 20:24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

Yup. Sacrificing animals is good with God.

or for being a woman and having an opinion: 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Haha!

As a woman with an opinion I have to smile at this one. I love how you quote Corinthians when there are much more damning passages in Timothy...

1 Timothy 2:11-15 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

But I'll go back to your quote

"Let your women keep silence in the churches

Women are not allowed to teach in church. A woman can be as opinionated as she wants anywhere else. I don't get it, I don't like it, but yes I support it.

So, you have faith (which for reasonable people is defined as an excuse for believing in things that you have no reason to believe in - but really want to) that all of this is right and good?

I'd like your definition of reasonable people please, is it the people who think like you do?


Yes. Faith is believing in things with no logical proof.

Posted by tekriter "many believers will say, "God always answers prayers, but sometimes his answer is 'no.' If your prayer does not fit with God's will, then God will say 'no' to you." This feels odd because God's answer to every amputee is always "no" when it comes to regenerating lost limbs. Jesus says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." He does not say, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it, unless you are praying about an amputated limb, in which case I will always reject your prayer." Jesus also says, "Nothing will be impossible to you," and regenerating a limb should therefore be possible. The fact that God refuses to answer every prayer to regenerate a lost limb seems strange, doesn't it?" see the original link

I went through the original link.

It does seem strange, you know what though, there are things that seem stranger to me.

Like that Women aren't allowed to teach in the church

That The world was created in 7 days

That the entire world got flooded once and a giant boat was all that stood between us an the end of all life on our planet.

They're all strange, I don't get them.

But then again, I'm not God.

I'm sorry, I know my response isn't going to answer your question, but I don't have one.

In fact I'm only posting here cause you really wanted someone to rise to your bait, and I'm accommodating that way ;]

Posted by journeylady This quote doesn't say 'kill unbelievers' it says if someone tries to lure you awway from me, kill him. Harsh yes, not acceptable now to be sure. (again, Old Testment New Testament differences here) Again, this was one of God's rules to protect the Israelites.

So, even though the bible is the one true word of dog, some parts are wrong and some parts are right? I get it! Oh, nope, it's gone.

It almost seems as though you are saying that you filter the messages of the bible through the experiences of modernity and a personal moral filter that is external to the x-tianity. Perhaps you don't need to beleive in a magical sky-god to be a good and moral person.

It was right for hundreds of years of slavery, torture and murder based on the bible - but now it's wrong? Did dog change his mind? Why didn't he just say so in the first place?

According the the NT, the OT laws are still binding on x-tians:

Psalm 119:151-2
Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth. Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever

Matthew 5:18-19
Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

The NT is much nicer than the OT:

Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Fear god, or he will kill you and burn you in hell!


Romans 1:31-32
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Kill the fags!

By the way, where are all the other evangelists account of the life of jebus? Did they want too much bling? Or did it have to do with them being a little more contradictory and unbelivable?

More of the bible is proved wrong, or irrelevant with every age. The reformation was all about admiting that what we had learned about the world was at direct odds with the teachings of x-tianity (flat earth, sun rotates around earth, stoning women is fun...). Yet there still exists a solid core of religious literalists that believe the most foolish things in the face of so much evidence to the contrary.


REASON is the ability of the human mind to form and operate on concepts in abstraction, in varied accordance with rationality and logic.

That means that beliveing in ridiculous ideas (that have all been proven to be false) like a world wide flood, or creationism is NOT reasonable.

How is it that dinosaur fossils all pre-date the biblical creation? Sumerians invented glue 1000 years before adam and eve were chowing down on apple pie and getting it on. What up with that?

There is no evidence of any world wide flood, and the mere idea that one bozo could gather up a pair of each species is so ridiculous as to invite giggling. The idea that those animals could have bred the biodiversity we see on this planet would require an encyclopedic ignorance of even the most elementary biology. That's unreasonable.

Continuing to hold an irrational position in the face of so much good and testable evidence is called a delusion. That's unreasonable.

The biggest threat to our future is the fact that religion teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding. I am not satisfied with the foolish explanations of a first century fairy tale book that has been consistently proven wrong at every new age and has caused more division and suffering than any other single collection of superstition and bigotry that has ever seen the light of day. (crusades, inquisitions, wars, promoting starvation and aids in africa, generations of people who were afraid to even talk about sex based on one mistranslated word in the bible, and on...)

The fact that you survived long enough to argue with me on electronic media is a tribute to people like Galileo and Newton who were also not satisfied with an ignorant fable.

How do you define reason? How do you reconcile reason with a complete lack of evidence for any of the dogmatic claims of your book?

Posted by tekriter So, even though the bible is the one true word of dog, some parts are wrong and some parts are right? I get it! Oh, nope, it's gone.

That's not what I said at all. I explained that the laws are impossible for us sinful being to follow. they are still God's laws, they are still true and right. But Jesus can to fulfill the law, where we couldn't. That's what I meant by old testament, New Testament logic.

The new testament teaches Love above all.


That said, I'm done with you and your condescending and insulting arguments. Each and every mention of x-tians, dog, jebus and all your other immature crap just points further and further towards the point that you are wasting my time with your antagonizing tripe.

You are not interested in an argument on the merits of Christianity or even the disproving of Christianity. You're are simply interested in bashing and insulting those who believe in something you've decided is stupid.

I answered your original statement about the Amputee.

I'm done now.

God Bless

Posted by journeylady You are not interested in an argument on the merits of Christianity or even the disproving of Christianity. You're are simply interested in bashing and insulting those who believe in something you've decided is stupid.

I think journeylady did a great job replying to each Biblical section that you brought up, tekriter. If you are "not satisfied with the foolish explanations of a first century fairy tale book that has been consistently proven wrong at every new age and has caused more division and suffering than any other single collection of superstition and bigotry that has ever seen the light of day" then why do you bother asking all these questions? Seriously.

She wasn't bashing your beliefs or you as a person. So have a little respect?

Hey, tekriter, you keep talking about burning in hell and all that. But, are you aware that the idea of a fiery hell where you burn for all eternity is not supported by the Bible? In fact, what the Bible has to say about Hell is completely different.

The belief in a fiery Hell is a dogmatic belief that came about later.

P.S. I'm not a believer, but I do know a shit-ton about the Bible.

Posted by tekriter The fact that you survived long enough to argue with me on electronic media is a tribute to people like Galileo and Newton who were also not satisfied with an ignorant fable.

Wow, I am completely mystified this comment. For some one who claims superior intellect you sure have inadequate level of respect.

You should also note that Christianity was created after Jesus was crucified (hence the name) and that the Old testament is Judeo-Christianity.

Posted by Curious_George You should also note that Christianity was created after Jesus was crucified (hence the name) and that the Old testament is Judeo-Christianity.

Yes, this is why journeylady kept talking about how Old Testament laws were put in place to protect the Israelites, but things changed when Jesus came (New Testament).

Okay, my bad. I did not mean to stray into an ad hominem attack. I'm sure that Journeylady is a very good person (I mean that) and that she actually believes the things she says she does. In fact, Journeylady is by far more eloquent than many people of faith, or otherwise, and more friendly in her approach, and to that I have enormous respect. I apologize unconditionally for not acting as such.

More central to this discussion, is her ideas and beliefs that I take exception to. I will strive to be more respectful of the person, but no one here has put forth a compelling reason to give religious ideas and dogma more respect than any other assertions without evidence.

I respect Christian ideas no more than Osama’s for the same reasons. No amount of special pleading makes it okay to accept the cleary flawed and unarguably divisive ideas about the god of Abraham (or any other) without question.

White Rabbit, perhaps you should read the New Testament. Here Hell is:

"Anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22, quoting Jesus)

"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:29, quoting Jesus; see parallel passage in Mark 9:44, which adds, "where the fire never goes out.")

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28, quoting Jesus)

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:40-42, quoting Jesus)

"Throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Parable of the Talents, Matthew 25:30)

"Then he [the King] will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, Matthew 25:41)

"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." (James 3:6)

"The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-15)

"The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile...the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulpher. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

Is that part excised from the “shit-ton” you know? Of course many religions have backed away from this vision of hell - but that just shows that literalism is clearly flawed.

Journeylady,

It is difficult to separate the idea from the person when arguing with religious persons. I’m assuming (and I’m sure Journeylady will correct me when I’m wrong) that you are a member of your parent’s religion (less than one in twelve members of a religion leave the church of their parents). Lutheranism means that you are a literalist, and have been indoctrinated your entire life into a belief system that discourages free thought.

People that argue from faith often do not understand that the very principle they argue for means that they can not be wrong. The dogmatic, faith-based position is unfalsifiable and therefore NOT valid on its face. Religious people will keep arguing from the same position even in the face of undeniable evidence to the contrary – because their truth comes from a holy book and they know in advance that it can’t be wrong.

People that argue from reason believe things based on a preponderance of evidence and willingly admit that they can be wrong, and modify their ideas when presented with new evidence. It is clear to all of us that human understanding grows with each day. To not abide new ideas is to deprive yourself of an entire universe of wonderous knowledge.

Here is my problem with dogmatic religious ideas:
1. Religion is not based on anything rational. Believing strongly, without evidence is considered mad or stupid – except in one aspect of our lives – religion. Either you believe things for a good reason, or you do not. Believing things because you want to is not a good reason.
2. The existence of god is highly improbable. We’ve been down that road before, but if anyone wants to play it out, just say go.
3. Religion has harmful effects on the believers:
Religion limits free thought through dogmatism and irrational superstitions.
Religion places arbitrary restrictions on people, like observing Sabbath for example, or from marrying out-groups, or on what clothes to wear, or how to act in bed or with whom.
Religion indoctrinates children who just happen to be born into a household of a particular faith – and eliminates their ability to make their own choices or learn alternative ideas. (Journeylady: have you ever wondered what is means that you are christian because you were born to a christian family, but had you been born in a hindu family that you would be hindu?)
4. Religion harms society in that:
The competing religions all offer different and incompatible views of the world. These contradictory claims lead invariably to the us versus them group dynamic that causes discrimination at best and genocide at its worst. You never have to look too far to find war or some other violence fomented by religious belief. (not to mention the plurality of world religion raises some interesting questions about all of the mutually exclusive claims of being the chosen peoples)
Religion impedes human progress. Consider the example that stem cell research is the single most promising line of research in science, but it is actually illegal in many places in the increasingly theocratic United States. Prolonging the suffering of millions over an morally indefensible position is disgusting. In the USA, several conservative religious groups have publicly opposed the concept of making HPV vaccination mandatory for pre-adolescent girls, citing fears that vaccination against a sexually transmitted disease might send a subtle message that detracts from an abstinence-based approach to sexual health. It is obscene to suggest preserving cervical cancer as an incentive for abstinence while it sacrifices the lives of thousand of women a year.
Shall we talk about the ridiculous idea of Intelligent Design? Religion “teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding” – Richard Dawkins
Religion is morally bankrupt: If you, in the absence of your god, would commit robbery, murder, or rape, you are clearly an immoral person. If you would not commit robbery, murder, or rape in the absence of your god, then your claim that god is necessary for you to be good is now undermined. Just read the bible to see that the bible is no good either literally or allegorically as a moral guide. I’m sure there are some good things there, but that doesn’t excuse or somehow cancel out the obsolete or downright offensive ideas contained there.
“If people are only good because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed” Albert Einstien
Religion is also anti-democratic and authoritarian. One only has to look at the emerging theocracy in the United States to see the danger. Pat Robertson for president? I don’t want to be told how to think or how to love based on the views of people that believe women are inferior (Robertson) or by people believe that: you can turn crackers into flesh and wine into blood by praying over them or that some guy that had no father died and then came back to life – with no proof whatsoever that these event happened.

Posted by Curious_George For some one who claims superior intellect...

Did not. I just claimed to be a skeptic and not believe things without a valid reason.

Posted by Curious_George You should also note that Christianity was created after Jesus was crucified (hence the name) and that the Old testament is Judeo-Christianity.

I do note that - I just don't care all that much. Does christian dogma include the old testament or not? I wasn't really talking about the jewish doctrines, but I disagree with them and the ideas of islam too.

You might note yourself that the (widely contradictory and increasingly fantastical) accounts of christs life and death did not appear for nearly a century after his death and are all strangely similar to any number of mythical figures from that time period.

The old testament also claims that the universe began over one hundred years after the dog was domesticated.

Posted by tekriter Is that part excised from the “shit-ton” you know? Of course many religions have backed away from this vision of hell - but that just shows that literalism is clearly flawed.

I'm familiar with every quote you posted and then some. And you're quoting scripture, but you're not reading it closely enough.

Nowhere, NOWHERE, in those quotes, or anywhere else in the Bible, does it describe Hell as a place of eternal torment where you burn forever and ever. It does allude to flames and fire, but not for the purpose of being destroyed. (Except for one exception where it does describe suffering, but that one has a very distinct and obvious meaning that I'll refute if you post.)

In all of those passages, it describes being destroyed by the flames of Hell. Not burning and suffering forever and ever. Pay particular attention to the quote about "second death" and "destroying the soul."

According to the Bible, according to a few of the quotes you posted even, Hell is complete destruction. It's ceasing to exist. It's dying and not waking up (there are passages that support that).

So, yes, my friend, I know a "shit-ton" about the Bible. Probably more than anyone you've ever met.

The idea of a Hell of eternal torment is a dogmatic invention designed to scare pagans into converting to Christianity. The early Christians and Jews did NOT believe in it.

okay, I give up. You are right. I must have misread the parts about fire and eternal hell, like:

Anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22, quoting Jesus)

"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:29, quoting Jesus; see parallel passage in Mark 9:44, which adds, "where the fire never goes out.")

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:40-42, quoting Jesus)

"Then he [the King] will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, Matthew 25:41)

"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." (James 3:6)

"The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-15)

"The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile...the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulpher. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

It's a good thing that no one really reads this stuff literally! I mean imagine if people believed this?

Clearly I'm off on my estimation of this stuff. How about you explain it to me (since you know more than anyone I've ever met) so I can get a handle on how "fire" and "eternal fire" and "never goes out" and "lake of fire" really mean something else?

You know what, fuck it. My pride feels a little wounded, so I'm going to dig right into the whole motherfucking Hell thing.

Let's start with good ol' Adam and Eve. When they disobeyed and sinned, they were told that, as punishment, they would "surely die." They weren't told they were going to burn, or go to Hell, or whatever. And that's because Hell IS dying--permanently. But we'll elaborate on that in a minute...

Next, let's go to a verse that gets quoted all the time, but get a key fucking point ignored. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Uh, if the unsaved go to Hell, then they're not perishing anymore than people who go to Heaven. UNLESS, people who aren't saved perish for good. Not to mention, why wouldn't the passage read "that whosoever believes in Him should not burn in Hell, but have everlasting life."

Romans 6:23 "The wages of sin is death." NOT, "the wages of sin is burning in hellfire forever and ever." The price we pay for sin is death--real death, according to the Bible.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul who sins is the one who will die." How can a soul die unless it means ceasing to exist?

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish." Jesus' own words this time. If the soul lives on in Hell or Heaven after death, then why would anyone need eternal life--they'd already have it. Answer: the unsaved simply cease to exist.

Here's another point. What you posted about "eternal fire" is constantly taken to mean burning forever and ever. Well, that's NOT what it means. To be burned by the eternal fire is to be completely destroyed. Here's some proof. In Jude (don't remember where, can't find the exact verse), it says that Sodom and Gomorrha suffered "the vengeance of eternal fire." Well, are Sodom and Gomorrha still burning? No. Because to be burned by the eternal fire is to be COMPLETELY destroyed.

Psalm 146:4 "His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish" Why would the thoughts of someone in Hell cease to exist? Because the dead are conscious of nothing--they cease to exist.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten." Again, the dead ceasing to exist.

Psalms 115:17 "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." Death is silence? That doesn't sound very fucking fire and brimstoney to me.

Another point. Through the Bible, particularly the New Testament, death is referred to as sleep. I don't really want to Google all the times, but I will if you push the issue. But the idea of sleeping in death doesn't really jive with the whole fire and suffering thing.

To expand on the sleeping issue... Both Moses and King David were said to have "slept with their fathers" after death. Lazarus, famously raised from the dead, was said to sleep in death.

Expanding on that: Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens" We can safely assume David didn't go to a fiery hell since he was sleeping with his fathers. Why, then, didn't he got to heaven? Answer: Because death is sleep. Hell is not being awoken from that sleep and given eternal life.

Now let's get REALLY fucking nerdy!

As you're surely aware, the Bible wasn't written in English. There are four words that were translated as "hell", three Greek words and one Hebrew. Let's break them down and see if they really mean a place of eternal suffering, or if that dogmatic connotation was added later:

The Hebrew word is sheol. Sheol refers to a grave or a pit or simply the land of the dead. So, yes, people go to "hell" or "sheol"--they go to their graves!

Then there's the Greek Hades, which is basically the Greek counterpart to sheol. It means more or less the same thing, with more emphasis on the land of the dead.

Then there's the Greek tartaros. You can probably get this one's meaning from Tartarus? It means a place of confinement, a dark abyss, etc. NOT a place of eternal torment.

Then there's the Greek gehenna, which is responsible for most of the misunderstanding of hell. Gehenna was a trash pit outside of Jerusalem. It's where bodies and trash and other unclean things were thrown to be burned away. So, in instances where hell is translated from "gehenna", it literally means to be destroyed--to made to cease to exist.

And, if you really want to push the issue, I can Google up every goddamn reference in the Bible of the word "hell", which Hebrew or Greek word it was translated from, and show you that the passage clearly is not talking about suffering in fire forever and ever.

Any place in the Bible where it references burning or fire in regards to Hell, it's in regards to being destroyed by the fire or similar (with one exception that I'll explain if it's brought up).

What I said is true: The preponderance of evidence in the Bible says that Hell is oblivion, ceasing to exist, eternal sleep. NOT burning in eternal fire forever and ever.

If you think otherwise, you don't know your Bible well enough. Despite being a non-Christian, I know the damn thing better than a lot of preachers.

So, there you go my friend. If you want more evidence, I can gladly Google it up. I could write a fifty page paper on how the Bible doesn't support the idea of a hell of torment.