Could I have your thoughts on the PMR446 radios? I plan on buying one. Most have a range of up to a kilometer, or a mile, and will go through buildings and basements.

Icom and Kenwood both do a particularly exceptional one that I've got my eye on. But I'm not going to make a move until I've got at least some advice.

That's f*cking awesome.

I remember as a kid my mom telling me that in the future we'd have things like that...hehe

I'd buy one just for the novelty, it's definatly low-key which is good, but for UE, I want a radio, not a toy.

How much do they go for anyway?

-Mike

Posted by ExKa|iBuR That's f*cking awesome. I remember as a kid my mom telling me that in the future we'd have things like that...hehe I'd buy one just for the novelty, it's definatly low-key which is good, but for UE, I want a radio, not a toy. How much do they go for anyway? -Mike

Well unliscenced units sell for anywhere between $50 to $150, and proper full on liscenced units will go for anything up to $500.

And PMR isn't a toy by the way. We are talking about the equivolent (or usually better than the equivolent) of FRS here. Up to one mile range, through thick walls and basements, and in any weather conditions.

I know for a fact that the US Marines have ordered 13,000 Icom PMR446 units for combat duty. So these things must be pretty damn good.

And unlike FRS, there are no regulations for what you can and can't do with them. You can broadcast music on them, you can swear on them, you can track other PMR units, you can do what you want.

PMR/FRS is pretty much a toy...

I mean, how could you take a radio like this seriously...
They work on the same FRS/PMR frequencies as every other radio does.

-Mike

Save your cash man. There basicly FRS. You will have to ask more about the PMR freqs as I know nothing about them. But I have dealt with that little ICOM. Your better off geting some new FRS radios with line of sight of 7miles functional 2-3.

Posted by Mark Save your cash man. There basicly FRS. You will have to ask more about the PMR freqs as I know nothing about them. But I have dealt with that little ICOM. Your better off geting some new FRS radios with line of sight of 7miles functional 2-3.

But why the hell would I ever be more than 500 meters away from the rest of my team? Most sites aren't that big. And the Icom unit I have my eye on is anything but little, and is the latest model.

And Excalibur, I fail to understand why you seem to think that just because the PMR/FRS technology has been adapted for use with toys, all PMR/FRS radios are toys. They aren't.

The US Marines are using PMR for gods sake, do you really think that the military would run around yelling battle commands down a pink and purple walt disney walky-talky? These things have up to 14 channels, great range, reception, and work exceedingly well in and among buildings. In fact, the ICOM unit that I have my eye on, has won more awards than any single radio of any other type after only the first few weeks of production.

The fact is, your big flashy radios are all very nice, but unless for some reason you need to get in contact with someone 7 miles away, it's excessive. What is the point in fishing out several thousands of dollars for something you dont need?

Now I don't know for sure the range of the unit I want to get, but I know for a fact that they are just perfect for an UE application.

I would also like to add, that the Icom unit in question, lets you know when other radios are out of range, so you can always stay in your group area.

Thats a good point and very valid. However 1mile in radio means shorter range. Never follow the marines in technology..... (shudders) I like the out of range system. Also if you ever come to the US PMR freqs will make life easier to conceal your tracks. If it fits go for it. However the price for those and what they do...... Do shop around a little more if you havent gotten them yet. However they do work decent in buildings.

Posted by Mark Thats a good point and very valid. However 1mile in radio means shorter range. Never follow the marines in technology..... (shudders) I like the out of range system. Also if you ever come to the US PMR freqs will make life easier to conceal your tracks. If it fits go for it. However the price for those and what they do...... Do shop around a little more if you havent gotten them yet. However they do work decent in buildings.

I've already found a different radio that sells in pairs, goes over 2 miles, has a plethora of features, works on PMR, and is only $100 for the two radios, chargers, and batteries. This radio claims itself to be the smallest pmr radio available at the moment. It is the goodman tracker, and will be my first radio - considering the stats, I don't think this will be a bad starting point! I'll post the stats below for those of you who don't particularly care to search for it on google.

8 Channel operation
500mW power output
Incoming call alert
Flexible rubber antenna
Stealth Squelch
Adjustable VOX
Dual watch (2 chan mon)
Battery charge jack
Ultra clear Reception
Ultra compact design
Run on 3xAAA
Up to 2 miles on land
Up to 5 miles on water

Not bad for such a small unit. Especiall at that price per pair.

thats perfect for what you have told me what your doing. I started out the same way. I infact now use those radios as backups for escape and evasion. I have been compiling accessories for radios. Specificly throat mics. If your interested I will give you the low end cheap versions that should be great for you guys. That way in noisey enviroments you can talk and also there easier on comm in general.

Anything that has a feature called "Stealth Squelch", well...heh.

FRS/PMR is a great idea for things like amusement parks and "mom to kid" stuff, but for UE or anything semi-serious...no. The Military recently got a LOT of flak for using FRS, and they are considering pulling them completly from Military service. But, look at it this way. In a big city (or even a small one), FRS channels see lots of users, but in countries like Afghanistan and such, there's NOBODY on the frequencies, so it's not a problem.

The other issue is legality. FRS is only authorized in certain countries, and each country has it's own regulations. So, if you take an FRS radio from Canada into Bosnia for example, you could be using a frequency somebody else is licensed for. Example... up until about 3 years ago, Chicago Police used to use FRS channel 7 (462.7125) for undercover operations. At the time, FRS wasn't around, and they had a commercial license for that frequency...once FRS came along, they obviously had to change frequencies...


-Mike

I think FRS is great for the emerging team. Its the baby steps you know. Also with the sofistication there getting into now there more intersting to play with. However for evac purposes, roling pickups, corinated ops FRS wouldnt cut it.

Posted by ExKa|iBuR Anything that has a feature called "Stealth Squelch", well...heh. FRS/PMR is a great idea for things like amusement parks and "mom to kid" stuff, but for UE or anything semi-serious...no. The Military recently got a LOT of flak for using FRS, and they are considering pulling them completly from Military service. But, look at it this way. In a big city (or even a small one), FRS channels see lots of users, but in countries like Afghanistan and such, there's NOBODY on the frequencies, so it's not a problem. The other issue is legality. FRS is only authorized in certain countries, and each country has it's own regulations. So, if you take an FRS radio from Canada into Bosnia for example, you could be using a frequency somebody else is licensed for. Example... up until about 3 years ago, Chicago Police used to use FRS channel 7 (462.7125) for undercover operations. At the time, FRS wasn't around, and they had a commercial license for that frequency...once FRS came along, they obviously had to change frequencies... -Mike

There you go again talking the same old bullshit. PMR isn't some kind of joke that you can insist is only used by little kiddies and their mommies off down the amusement park. PMR stands for "Private Mobile Radio Service", whereas FRS stands for "Family Radio Service". PMR is the real thing, FRS is your crappy kiddy and child thing, so don't get the two confused.

The fact that they share the same wavelength doesn't mean that they get used for the same things you would expect them to be used for. In north america, where PMR becomes FRS, those wavelengths are designated for families and basic leisure, but everywhere else in the world, it becomes PMR, and its from there that the uses start to change.

Hospitals, psychiatric facilities, factories, and many other businesses rely on PMR, and so far haven't had any problems. So for you to insist that PMR is useless would not only be naive, but arrogant.

Let me know when you find a good use for 20 mile range. Unless you run a pirate radio station, you don't need that kind of crap. Not only are UHF, HAM and whatever easier to track, but they are also more heavily monitored by government sectors that personally I would rather stay away from. By getting a liscence for one of those things, you are basically screaming out "HEY EVERYBODY, COME AND LOOK WHAT I'M DOING". But with PMR, there are so many radios that nobody can be bothered to monitor the frequencies.

And Stealth Squelch? This is an option, not a forced feature. I don't have to use it. Just because it is there doesn't mean it makes the whole unit crap. In fact, at least I HAVE a stealth squelch option.

The only reason the military are thinking of pulling out of using FRS is because of jerks like you. They want to keep face, and save themselves from becoming a laughing stock, but people like you make it hard for them by insisting all sorts of bullshit. The fact is, you don't need 20+ miles of range on a radio. You can use boosters on vehicles, or use other radios as signal range extenders. Anything over 7 miles is excessive, especially for UE.

The UE criteria for a radio is: Must go through walls, must have long battery life (or rechargeables), must have a range big enough to cover most sites, and must have the option of using headsets or being able to cut off sound completely.

The criteria for military and police radios are very different than they are for us UErs. The police need to cover great distances, and sometimes so do the military, but UEr's dont. And you don't need to pretend they do either. Especially not as an excuse for having expensive radio gadgets.

Excuse me, but wasn't it you that said PMR and FRS are the same? I know _nothing_ about PMR, other than what you've posted. I guess it'd be more accurate to say PMR is more like what the US calls GMRS - General Mobile Radio Service. They share the same frequencies as FRS, but can use higher power (5 watts on portable and 25 on mobile).

If FRS/PMR/MURS/GMRS works for you, then go with it...all I'm saying is that I wouldn't personaly rely on radios that are not designed for the environments that UE often brings you in.

The reason the US Military (and Canadian) are pulling FRS is for three main reasons: 1, the radios just can't hold up. 2, outside of North America, their use isn't permitted, and 3, they already have spend thousands on portables made by Racal Communications for portable use. FRS is often more popular on bases for general conversation because they are much smaller and light-weight.

I (and everyone else no doubt) could really do without the attitude. Just because someone's opinions and personal choices in equipment are obviously very different isn't reason to flame someone.

The idea of this board is to exchange information...I was simply stating that the quality of FRS radios are not intended to be used as anything more than a recreational device. They aren't waterproof, aren't very loud, barely cover 3 floors in a building.

You have to realize, my opinions on radios and such are abit biased, as I deal with Motorola on a daily basis and use my radios for many things other than UE.

Motorola radios are compatible with headsets and you can mute the audio completly. As for range, it's very nice to be able to be in a tunnel underground and talk to someone 2km away on the surface. I'm not really concerned with others hearing me...just be wise in frequency selection. With FRS, everyone and their brother can hear you. With a decent external antenna, you can hear FRS from a good 10-15km away.

I'm sorry if I've offended you by giving a different point of view.

-Mike

Posted by ExKa|iBuR I was simply stating that the quality of FRS radios are not intended to be used as anything more than a recreational device. They aren't waterproof, aren't very loud, barely cover 3 floors in a building. -Mike

This is where you go wrong. FRS radios work on a frequency designated for that sort of radio, but radios on that frequency can handle much more in terms of range and audio quality. Up until now our team has used UHF, but PMR looks promising.

A good PMR radio would be waterproof, come with a volume control, and cover up to at least 2 miles, no matter how many hills, buildings, or trees are in the way.

Getting back to UHF on the subject of affordable quality however;

The Kenwood TK3100 ProTalk UHF Radio for instance, costs around $150 per unit, and beats the shit out of any radio you could ever dream of owning as far as motorola are concerned. Nothing up until the $1000s range beats this radio for quality, performance, and rugged design.

An SMA antenna connector is used to ensure maximum power output and antenna performance. On open flat ground it has up to a five mile range. In vegetative, mountainous, and urban terrain the range will be less (at around 3 to 2 miles). In buildings, average range is 20 floors and 250,000 square feet. (and really, you only get buildings bigger than this in New York. (In terms of floor size)

The Kenwood TK3100 ProTalk works in light rain, humidity, and is safe against vibrations and shock. In other words, you can drop this thing onto the floor in light rain, loose it for an hour, come back to it, step on it, then start using it again.

Now that is a pretty fuckin impressive deal for that price range, which just goes to show, that you don't need the best radio on the market to do UE.

Now what you got there is NOT a toy.

Motorola SP50.

Retail.. 350 dollars.

5 watts output. Rain/dust resistant. Can be dropped 300 feet onto concrete (found that one out personally) with just a small crack on the radio...


I've got one of the ProTalk radios... They are pretty nice, but they are only 4 channels, and don't have any options like scan, selective calling, call alert, etc... That, and they are a pain in the ass to program.

Depends on your school of thought I guess, but like I said, I'm very partial to Motorola..in my books, nothing beats them, when you consider value, features, durability. Sure, you can get cheaper radios, but I'd like to see that Kenwood radio survive a fall 500 feet onto concrete with nothing more than just a scratch

-Mike

Posted by ExKa|iBuR Motorola SP50. Retail.. 350 dollars. 5 watts output. Rain/dust resistant. Can be dropped 300 feet onto concrete (found that one out personally) with just a small crack on the radio... I've got one of the ProTalk radios... They are pretty nice, but they are only 4 channels, and don't have any options like scan, selective calling, call alert, etc... That, and they are a pain in the ass to program. Depends on your school of thought I guess, but like I said, I'm very partial to Motorola..in my books, nothing beats them, when you consider value, features, durability. Sure, you can get cheaper radios, but I'd like to see that Kenwood radio survive a fall 500 feet onto concrete with nothing more than just a scratch -Mike

What exactly do you use the scan feature for? Is it for finding other radios, finding other frequencies being used by radios, or what?

And you are right, the Kenwood ProTalk won't survive falling 166.6 meters, because it isn't designed to. But the price of them means you can afford to lose one or two that way. Especially when you consider the price of a radio that COULD survive that fall.

Ultimately, I don't have a use for most of the features included with some radios. All I want is a button I hold down for talking, a jack for a headset, and good range/reception. I find VOX annoying because it cuts off a the first few letters of every word you say, and I dislike radios without volume control. I like radios to have belt straps for when you are using a headset, too.

The Kenwood ProTalk is the closest radio to all the above, without spending a massive amount of money.

Scan isn't so much useful to find other radios, but, for example, I use my two UHF SP50's for UE type things. I have 10 different frequencies programmed in, with a mix of PL tones and such. I find scan especially useful for the pre-UE things. Like, I'll keep the radio on scan for about half an hour before doing any UE, that way I can tell if anybody is using the frequency, etc...


-Mike

Posted by ExKa|iBuR Scan isn't so much useful to find other radios, but, for example, I use my two UHF SP50's for UE type things. I have 10 different frequencies programmed in, with a mix of PL tones and such. I find scan especially useful for the pre-UE things. Like, I'll keep the radio on scan for about half an hour before doing any UE, that way I can tell if anybody is using the frequency, etc... -Mike

Oh I see, so it works very much like the radio version of a portscanner.

hate to burst your bubble but 99% of time when a radio comes with a claim of a certain range it is bullshit, as range is so relative and so situaton dependent. I have found FRS (similar to PMR) to be barely adequate most of the time, and sometimes totally useless, More power is definatley better, although i am not saying throw out all FRS (or PMR) gear but jsut remember its limitations. The best range i ever got with my frs radios was about 1/2 mile and that was in fairly open unobstructed space, yet when my friend had frs radios and i was using my ham on frs feqs (yes i know its illegal) they coudl hear me much further, but i couldnt hear them. FRS (PMR) radios are cheaply built, they have a horribly poor excuse for antenna, and the reciever on them usually sux. I would say get a ham radio and operate it on frs, gmrs, murs freqs and nobody will both you.

speaking of do you know how easy or hard it is to get a ham to talk on FRS etc.