Posted by Shael ...but we've anthropomorphisized them so much that we think of the cute and fuzzy bunny of having feelings other than the need to eat, breed and shit.

Posted by Shael I'm not saying that they don't have emotions, what I'm saying is we project a lot of human qualities on them that they don't possess.

Does not compute.

Lyrics to Wop A Din by Red House Painters

Written by main RHP man Mark Kozelek as a tribute to his cat...

She's got big green eyes And a long Egyptian face She moves across the floor At her own pace When I'm here in bed She'll jump up on my chest And when we lock eyes there's so much love I wanna cry She comes in near When I scratch under her ear And she lifts her head When I kiss around her neck Won't go to sleep When she falls along my side And two green eyes fade To a porcelain marble white And somehow when I sleep She'll end up at my feet And if I roll and kick her out I might knock her to the ground But she'll come back anyhow Ella es muy vital más triste que salir el sol pura como el agua ??? The morning comes She squints up to shield out the sun And she'll go and lay In the warmest dusty rays And I hold her face She lays perfectly in place And she'll yawn and stretch And stare me down expressionless And lay back down into her nest And if someone calls She'll race me out the hall When she hears the phone Then she knows I'm leaving home She don't wanna be alone And I know it's wrong That I'm going away so long And for her it's rough I can't be with her enough But I'll never give her enough Ella es muy vital más triste que salir el sol pura como el agua ??? And somehow when I sleep She'll end up at my feet And if I roll and kick her out I might knock her to the ground

Posted by SaraBellum If you want to eat meat or wear fur, go for it. However, attacking someone for eating veal while you're wearing a fur coat is hypocritical.

I only wear used fur. When the fur is used, its already dead, rather than buying new, where more animals are killed. Throwing away a fur coat, or dumping paint on it doesn't make it 'any less dead.' Consider it recycling.

When veal is purchased, it increases the demand, so more baby calfs are slaughtered.

Posted by monster I only wear used fur. When the fur is used, its already dead, rather than buying new, where more animals are killed. Throwing away a fur coat, or dumping paint on it doesn't make it 'any less dead.' Consider it recycling. When veal is purchased, it increases the demand, so more baby calfs are slaughtered.

Veal is tasty, but hard to cook properly.
Ever eat rabbit? or duck? or venison?
yummy yummy wild game animals.

hunting is cool as long as you eat what you kill

Posted by fedge ...and ironically, if farm animals were allowed to have more rights and protections it would be humans that starve as a result of the lack of meat production.

From GoVeg.com ...

There is more than enough food in the world to feed the entire human population. So why are more than 840 million people still going hungry?1 Our meat-based diet is partly to blame, as land, water, and other resources that could be used to grow food for human beings are being used to grow crops for farmed animals instead. According to a recent report by Compassion in World Framing, "[c]rops that could be used to feed the hungry are instead being used to fatten animals raised for food." It takes up to 16 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of edible animal flesh. The average adult human burns about 2,000 calories per day, just living his or her life. We use almost all the calories that we consume to move around, breathe, and do everyday tasks. The same is true of farmed animals. For every pound of food that they are fed, only a fraction of the calories are returned in the form of edible flesh. The rest of those calories are burned away raising the animal to slaughter weight or contributing to feathers, blood, and other parts of the animal that are not eaten by humans. This is why animals raised for food have to eat as many as 16 pounds of grain to create just 1 pound of edible flesh. Because the industrial world is exporting grain to developing countries and importing the meat that is produced with it, farmers who are trying to feed themselves are being driven off their land. Their efficient, plant-based agricultural model is being replaced with intensive livestock rearing, which also pollutes the air and water and renders the once-fertile land dead and barren. If this trend continues, the developing world will never be able to produce enough food to feed itself, and global hunger will continue to plague hundreds of millions of people around the globe. The Guardian explains that there's only one solution: "It now seems plain that [a vegan diet] is the only ethical response to what is arguably the world's most urgent social justice issue."

I've also read statistics that demonstrate that if the whole world were vegetarian, if the crops raised for animal feed were instead used to feed humans, we would have a more than adequate solution to world hunger.
... But ending world hunger would probably cost quite large corporations a moderate percentage of profit ... so instead, we'll keep people in third-world nations starving, while we needlessly, grusomely and unempathetically slaughter helpless animals.

The only thing a cow ever did wrong was be born bovine instead of human.

... I live in Iowa. We have some of the LAST real family-owned farms. I have a friend who raises pigs. Not very many, I have to say. Probably about a thousand are alive at any given time, including the tiny babies to the big sows.

It is interesting, though. He reports that most of his money turns into feed for the pigs. And that the rest of the crops that he grows are MORE profitable than the hogs are.

So why still raise hogs?
More tax cuts, and family tradition.

Posted by Shael I'm sure there is...but we project a lot of things onto them that aren't really there. I'm not saying that they don't have emotions, what I'm saying is we project a lot of human qualities on them that they don't possess. That's just part of being human. We project a lot of our own thoughts and feelings onto an animals behavior.

If I don't pay enough attention to my sugar gliders (especially if I were to only have one), they will become depressed and start to self-mutilate. Pretty physical example of some "human" emotional qualities. And look at how small a sugar glider's brain is, compared to that of a pig, cow, deer, dog, cat ... If gliders get depressed, I'll bet other animals do, as well.

And don't any of you have animals? My dog can read me so well that, when she's done something wrong, I don't even have to yell. I don't have to say anything. She has learned to read my physical cues (and probably pheromonal ones) to know that she's done something wrong, and she should behave accordingly.

You know, I still can't get MEN to read my physical cues. If DOGS can, I'd say that other animals are arguably similar.

Emma: That's all fine and dandy, except humans require more than just dairy and carbohydrates to survive.
Meat (especially red meat) are the best sources of protein and iron for humans.

And don't gimme any of that tofu bullshit. Bleh.

i'm having pork chops and fried rice right now.
yummy.
you can go back and forth all day over meat eater or vegan, but in the end, the answer is still the same:

there's too fucking many of us on this planet

Posted by Lexi Emma: That's all fine and dandy, except humans require more than just dairy and carbohydrates to survive. Meat (especially red meat) are the best sources of protein and iron for humans. And don't gimme any of that tofu bullshit. Bleh.

Um ... I don't eat dairy, either. There's something about drinking antibiotics from a cow whose udders were so overgrown that they probably dragged on the ground and were covered in open wounds and blood that ... is just not very appetizing to me. I don't believe in forcing another living creature to suffer for needs that I can have better met elsewhere.

Plus, milk has that distinct "wet dog" smell. Blech. Never liked that stuff.

And I live on far more than tofu and carbs. You must not eat a very healthy diet if you think that only tofu, red meat, and carbs exist. ;)

Many doctors will tell you to entirely cut red meat OUT of your diet, because it is SO BAD for you. You get all those morons who think, "Oooh, red meat! Good red meat, MANLY!" And they don't realize that they're also giving their body shit tons of animal proteins (which have been linked to cancer), antibiotics, and cholesterol. If you're going to make an argument for meat, it is generally a better idea to make the argument for WHITE meat.

Know what a great source of iron is?
Dark, leafy green vegetables.


But it IS easier to just say "ooh me eat animal, animals GOOD for me! Cause of world hunger MMMM ME WORTH IT!" In fact, while the majority of americans are obese meat-eaters, only 2% of vegans are obese. But I'm not saying eating meat causes obesity...

I'm saying that vegans have to be conscientious and make good decisions about what they eat (because the diet is semi-unorthodox in this society), while most meat-eaters just assume that they're getting the right vitamins and minerals.


...Oh, and I don't care if you eat meat, or not, in the long run. For me, it is a personal choice to be both more healthy and more environmentally friendly ... that and I can't live with the guilt of making another living being suffer because of my own selfishness.

Posted by Samurai there's too fucking many of us on this planet

So, instead of providing them with the plentiful foods that would result from the planet being vegetarian, your solution is to starve people to death? O.o

The thing that gets me is: how the fuck are people starving when you can simply go fishing or hunting for food?

I'm not even touching the vegan issue, it's like arguing with a wall.

Posted by Stewie The thing that gets me is: how the fuck are people starving when you can simply go fishing or hunting for food?

Well, you can't just go hunting if you live in the city or in the desert.

You should see how much food grocery stores throw away though. I'm sure they donate some of that stuff to food banks but who really wants expired food?

I hate when people waste food

Posted by Emma Peel So, instead of providing them with the plentiful foods that would result from the planet being vegetarian, your solution is to starve people to death? O.o

yup.
to be honest, at this point, i could give a fuckarama about the rest of the world.
Am I supposed to lie and tell you that I actually care about the world outside of my own continuum? No. I have my own problems.

what am i supposed to do, Emma? Save the world by eating vegetables? Fuck that. Right now, this is life as I know it.

I own my own home on a quiet street.
I drive an American car.
I work a blue collar job.
I shop at a wal-mart.
I watch football and hockey.
I know how to work a rifle.
I have actually hunted little furry animals for the sick task of eating them.

I am the antithesis of a neo-hippie vegan lifestyle and am proud of it. I mean, i don't mean to come after you, but i just can't stand it when these vegetarian types look down their nose and start whining about saving the world and the people on it. The best thing that can happen to the planet is if we shed about 6 or 7 billion people.
yeah... 6 or 7 billion.

I have animals, and a man...both of which I don't understand and I probably never will.
I have one cat that needs a psychiatrist, the other cat is just retarded and I mean that in the nicest of all ways. As far as the man...well...he's just got hangups that we're working through.
As far as vegetarianism...my whole problem with it is if the human body were designed to get most of it's nutrients from non animal sources, then what the hell do we have canine teeth for?
Also...if we want more food for more people...stop growing so much organic produce. It's fine for your home garden, but there is nothing wrong with a nice genetically engineered tomato that resists disease and insects. It also keeps the normal farmers in business. Genetically engineered crops are the staple of the world's food supply and right now, there are people and organizations that are trying to stop genetically engineered seeds from being grown in 3rd world countries that could benefit from the source of food. They continue to inform the governments of these countries that there is something wrong with genetically engineered varieties that resist disease and insect destruction.

Shael

Posted by Samurai i don't mean to come after you, but i just can't stand it when these vegetarian types look down their nose and start whining about saving the world and the people on it.

It's okay. I am the only vegetarian in my family, and I don't really care that much. But fur-is-murder debates sure are fun. I don't look down on you for eating animals because it is part of your culture.





Oh, and I qualify more in the "punk" category than the "hippie" category ... just FYI. I like good music, not smokin' it up <3

Posted by Emma Peel Oh, and I qualify more in the "punk" category than the "hippie" category ... just FYI. I like good music, not smokin' it up <3

You know, I can't name too many punks that give a shit about animal rights as much as you do. Most seem more self absorbed with anarchy and other destructive hate subjects.

No, you're not punk. You're Emma. That's right, we came up with a new label for you.

Oh, and I qualify more in the "punk" category than the "hippie" category ... just FYI. I like good music, not smokin' it up <3

Right... i still don't understand why people still try to categorize themselves... just be yourself, not some stupid stereotype! I like punk music too, and I am heavily into animal rights, human rights, etc., but i don't call myself a punk.
What makes you punk?

Posted by Emma Peel I don't look down on you for eating animals because it is part of your culture.

not sure how to take that, Emma.

Posted by Stewie You know, I can't name too many punks that give a shit about animal rights as much as you do. Most seem more self absorbed with anarchy and other destructive hate subjects.

You should check out www.microcosmpublishing.com if you think that's all punk is about.

Posted by Samurai not sure how to take that, Emma.

I was basically saying that I don't look down on anybody for eating animals. My family eats animals. Hell, my sister has leathers and a coat trimmed with raccoon. It is part of American culture/society, and it is what is acceptable here. I don't look down on you, just because you eat meat. I try not to judge a person based on shit like that. There are still cannibals in certain tribes in the world, but it is part of their culture, so we really can't judge them based on that. I'm not saying you're a cannibal but ... you know. I hope you get what I mean. I was just saying that whether or not you eat meat, I don't really care, because it doesn't make you a bad person. At least in my book.

vicexsquad: I wasn't saying, "YEAH I'M A PUNK THAT'S IT ANARCHY FUCK THE GOVERNMENT!" ... I was saying that I wasn't a neo-hippie, as was previously suggested by someone else. It was just a note that IF someone were to throw me into a category, I prefer the punk one


Stewie: There are lots of "punks" who care about animal rights. Depends on which ones you're talking to ... there are also punks who manage to do disgusting and horrible things to animals during their shows ... just depends on who you're talking about.

Actually one of my favorite bands, Anti-Flag (A political-punk group that I think talks TOO much during shows, and spends too little time actually playing) is vegetarian. All of them are at least vegetarian, some are vegan, I think. Don't really know.

...

Man, you guys. I love this board. Everybody jumpin' on each other for every little thing - it feels like the good ol' days, when we bitched about politics in Other. It's all good, people.


In an interesting side-note, someone almost gave me a "FUR IS MURDER" lecture today! Hahaha! I have a coat trimmed in FAKE fur (if it were real, I think it would be bear or something), and boots trimmed in FAKE fur (maybe looks like a very black/grey raccoon? Don't know what it is supposed to resemble)...

Someone stopped me, "HOW MANY ANIMALS HAD TO DIE FOR YOU TO WEAR THAT??" I kind of blinked at her, gave this little smirk of disbelief that I get when someone is being retarded at me, and said, "None. It's all fake fur." She angrily replies back, "WELL, IT LOOKS REAL!" And My response is, "Well your boobs look real, too, but I'll bet they're not." And kept walking. I know, it is Winter, and I couldn't REALLY see her boobs to accurately judge them, but it at least shut her the fuck up. ... Just thought you'd all get a kick out of that!