This just came in...GM & Chrsyler are apparently in talks for a merger

http://www.nytimes...ess/11auto.html?hp

Samarui...how do you feel about an Dodge Cobalt? :p

Posted by Agent Skelly This just came in...GM & Chrsyler are apparently in talks for a merger http://www.nytimes...ess/11auto.html?hp Samarui...how do you feel about an Dodge Cobalt? :p

never happen.

I will say this, any merger with Renault is the kiss of death for an auto manufacturer. It was one of the deciding factors in what iced American Motors in the early 1980's. I hate to sound optimistic, but Detroit is going to have ride this out just like they did the late 1970's and early 1980's.

Many of you younger guys don't remember those years, well, because you weren't born yet, but i remember auto makers begging people to buy their cars. Why? GM and Ford were hopelessly out of step with consumer demands and they nearly paid the price for it. Chrysler did come the closest and they had to have the government step in and give them a hand.

Well, I figured one of the big 3 would merge at one point, but I figured Ford was apart of it. I was very surprised about Chrysler and GM talking as I always thought Chrysler was the stronger of the 3 and could get through anything.

Samarui, when I lived in Wisconsin, my father worked with people that previously worked at AMC Plant in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Their only comment about Renault took over was that Renault had a hard time understanding building "heavy cars" as they of course were used to building lightweight cars in Europe. I don't blame Renault for trying to get into the North America market, but I think they needed to understand what was going on North American long before they merged.

And remember Samarui, the Congressional Loan Guarantee for Chrysler let them actually produce a product that R&D was brewing for years...the Caravan which was what people wanted.

Posted by Agent Skelly Well, I figured one of the big 3 would merge at one point, but I figured Ford was apart of it. I was very surprised about Chrysler and GM talking as I always thought Chrysler was the stronger of the 3 and could get through anything. Samarui, when I lived in Wisconsin, my father worked with people that previously worked at AMC Plant in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Their only comment about Renault took over was that Renault had a hard time understanding building "heavy cars" as they of course were used to building lightweight cars in Europe. I don't blame Renault for trying to get into the North America market, but I think they needed to understand what was going on North American long before they merged. And remember Samarui, the Congressional Loan Guarantee for Chrysler let them actually produce a product that R&D was brewing for years...the Caravan which was what people wanted.

The Caravan/Voyager was an example of Henry Ford II's mismanagement into the 1970's. Iacocca had approached him with the idea of the 'garageable' van as early as 1975. It was called "Project Carousel" and it was shunned as too out of step with what the market then wanted. Iacocca held on to the idea and took it to Chrysler Corp who perfected the idea and sold every stinking one.

Posted by Samurai The Caravan/Voyager was an example of Henry Ford II's mismanagement into the 1970's. Iacocca had approached him with the idea of the 'garageable' van as early as 1975. It was called "Project Carousel" and it was shunned as too out of step with what the market then wanted. Iacocca held on to the idea and took it to Chrysler Corp who perfected the idea and sold every stinking one.

Yeah, I remember reading about Iacocca's hatred of stations wagons because they were basically an engineering hack to make a full size car longer, which lead him to think about the idea of the Caravan.

Of course, when Ford got wind of the Caravan, they started an R&D slap-together project known as the Aerostar. GM at least had an original R&D design that wasn't based upon any other platforms; the Safari/Astro

You do realize what will happen if it becomes a merger, don't you?

GM being the "bigger" of the two, will hack and slash and suck up any and all possible profit from Chrysler, then on top of it, there will be absolutely nothing recognizable of Chrysler left in the new "corporation". The deal will include huge selloffs of Chrysler assets, then, possibly closure of GM assets because of redundancy.

We're going through something similar right now with where Sam and I work.

IP just bought Weyerhauser's industrial packaging and corrugated factories. Now, IP is closing IP plants, three of them so far, because of the fact that these plants are much better tooled and much more capable of producing the same things that IP's 3 plants could.

If it happens, we won't see anything even close to a Chrysler product come off of GM's assembly lines. Or vice versa. It'll be a hack and slash merger with GM eating Chrysler alive.

The only reason GM won't buy Chrysler is that right now, they have a value of like zero. GM stock was down to like 5 or 10 bucks a share, from a once 40 or 50 dollar per share price. Also, Chrysler probably has a debt bigger than the GNP of England. So...GM not wanting to take the debt, will merge with them, then let the creditors devour Chrysler, and GM will swoop in and pick up the pieces and do what I said above. Selling off the assets and trying to turn it into a profit for them.

What's even more interesting is that Chrysler stock is listed as Saturn DaimlerChrysler. Share price of about 12 dollars, GM is down to around 4.89.

Shael

I just have a vision of a Cummins diesel powered truck, but with a good transmission. WHOA!

lol, gotta love the Allison

it's funny... in the 60's the Torqueflite automatic transmission was indestructible, second only to the GM Hydramatic Turbo 400 and Ford C6... Now, Chrysler and Ford couldn't engineer a good automatic transmission at fucking gunpoint!

Posted by Samurai it's funny... in the 60's the Torqueflite automatic transmission was indestructible, second only to the GM Hydramatic Turbo 400 and Ford C6... Now, Chrysler and Ford couldn't engineer a good automatic transmission at fucking gunpoint!

Torqueflite-derived modern versions went away when DalmlerBenz did the Chrsyler acquistion; but some of that was Chrylser's own stupidity with underestimating parts stregth on the A604 Overdrive transmission which took 3 generations to get right.

Well, it's all talk for now anyway.

Mainly because Cerberus is looking to unload Chrysler. From what I'm reading anyway. They're carrying at least a 518 million dollar debt from losses this year and 1.8 billion from last year. GM is carrying something like 57.5 billion in debt from losses and tax screwups from last year and burning through 1 billion in cash a month just to keep operating. Analysts are figuring they'll reach their minimum capital operating balance of 15 billion sometime next year. If they go below that, it's the end of GM as we know it.

So they're scrambling to do something.

The deal would be that a finance company named Cerberus would take over GM's controlling interest in GMAC and trade Chrysler for it. It's not exactly owned by Daimler, controlling interest is owned by Cerberus, who also owns a good sized portion of GM, obtained in deals over GMAC which is getting close to failing because of the mortgage crisis. Daimler only owns Chrysler in name only, Cerberus actually owns them. Cerberus wants GMAC because of the government payouts for bad mortgages, they stand to make a killing on the payoffs of those if they take over the other 40 some percent of GMAC. GM needs the cash, so they'll take Chrysler in trade, then GM would cut costs and try to save what they could by raiding Chrysler's credit. Since they don't owe half of what GM does and can still get credit. GM is running on a cash only basis for now. This is just from what I'm reading. It looks like they're liquidating assets just to keep running. But on top of this, GM needs cash to even finance the merger, which they don't have and can't get any time soon, unless the stock price rises or they find some really stupid creditor to loan them the money.

I honestly don't see it happening, unless someone at GM smartens up.

If they raid Chrysler's credit, then that's the end of Chrysler, other than it being a name that GM uses to market their products under.

Right now, GM's goal is to be the last of the big three standing when car sales come back, that's what they're trying to do. It wouldn't surprise me if they figure out something to get this deal to work and work out something with Ford as well. GM is looking to snap up whatever they can, however they can, but I don't expect them to get far, they just don't have the money available and won't have it for a while, unless by some miracle things turn around in the next few days or couple weeks.

About the only thing I can actually say and it's something I'm planning on doing soon is...get a few shares of GM. If they get deals to work, they will be the last company standing. Right now, it's at 5 bucks a share, dirt cheap and you're not losing much, so just in case, pick up a hundred shares, it won't hurt. Right now, the stock's not worth crap, but if they make it work...it'll be back up to 50 bucks a share in no time.

Shael

routan = rebadged caravan. lame

Posted by Nismo routan = rebadged caravan. lame

Actually, it just uses the Chrylser's RT platform but has no other shared components with the Grand Caravan at all.

same shittt son

Posted by Nismo same shittt son

But its not! Don't make me brake this down by part you punk

At least in the case of the Routan... if ANYONE got the minivan thing right, it was definitely Chrysler, so I can see VWs reason since the Eurovan was a fucking joke.

NOW... the new Sebring convertible, does it share a platform with the VW Eos, or are they just REALLY similar in appearance?

They look EXTREMELY similar, except for the grille. And on the Routan, that too will fail like any other VW van (except for the campers and hippie vans), since soccer mons only trust Dodge Caravans, Honda Odysseys, and Toyota Siennas. I think it's really game over for all of the big three, nobody can save them, and they can't save themselves.

aye but VW will still lease and dodge has stoppedl easing. UPPERHAND

Posted by 90rock I think it's really game over for all of the big three, nobody can save them, and they can't save themselves.

i guess i better start stockpiling my Chevrolets.

Honestly, I don't think it's the end of any of them. There will be at least one standing.

One of them will figure out how to come out ahead of the others and absorb the other two, marketing products under the names they manage to buy out or merge with. Detroit's not dead yet, they made it through the Great Depression, World War II, the oil embargo and fuel rationing of Carter's administration...I think they'll survive this, if not in one form, it'll be in another. Who knows, maybe one of the foreign companies will swoop in and take over controlling interest.

GM is solvent until probably June of next year. There's still some time for them, and I haven't been looking into Ford or Chrysler, but I'm betting both of them are in about the same boat.

Shael