Posted by Trixi Why do you imply that there are religious restrictions placed on marriage simply because same-sex marriages are not permitted?

there are religious restrictions placed on marriage simply because same-sex marriages are not permitted

Q.E.D.

Posted by Trixi Much, if not most, of what you value in civilization has a Christian origin like universities, hospitals, museums and, wait for it...the idea of HUMAN RIGHTS!

No. Not even remotely true. That is psychotic reasoning. First, the human race advances on it's own, and time and time again religious institutions have gotten in the way. Your argument there is like saying the would be no art if not for Christianity. That because the church forbade art if it was not religious. Second, Everything that you hold dear in you faith comes from somewhere else. As a student of the occult, I have seen how things done by Jesus in the bible reflect various Eastern and African practices. Only problem is that what was taught by Jesus was not properly recorded and even changed. You were lied to and you turned the liars into saints.

Marriage, in the Christian sense anyway and as practiced by most Americans, is a religious sacrament specifically between a man, a woman and God as validated for believers by natural law and our Holy Scripture. The main problem most Christians have with gay marriage is that our religion (and even modern psychiatry up until our "politically correct" revolution) teaches that homosexuality is abnormal human behavior which should be addressed as such.

I thought love was a major part of Christianity, yet those are such hateful words. Jesus would be ashamed, yet would have compassion for your misguided concepts. He warned of being self-righteous, and preached humility. I see neither. It is my idea that each person should be allowed to do what they want. If they do something harmful or malicious, then they will have to deal with consequences. If you think they are going to hell for their sins, well that is their "cross to bear". Let them go to hell. And what if a church decides that gay marriage is accepted? The you are being oppressive to another faith, another big no no.

We do not believe being homosexual is a sin, we only believe that acting out sexually on those feelings is sinful. We understand that a person may have no control over their sexual desires, (we all have our particular cross to bear) but they do have control over their actions and claiming those actions are okay just because consenting adults agree to take part in them does not make it so and is rightfully discouraged by Christians and other people of good will.

And I have to deal with the hurt of such an oppressive mind set on a daily level. I see people being pigeon-holed into roles that do not fit what is in their heart of hearts. When you make a person wrong like that, you cause them pain. That is a sin against humanity and god.

Just as you have the right to disagree with Christian ideals and values in the public arena, we are also permitted to share what we accept to be true and support political action which validates and upholds those principles.

Faith is not an excuse for fascism. I disagree with christian ideals, but I don't want to out law them. That is evil.

I could envision support for legislation which would recognize some type of "life partnership" legal agreement between consenting adults, regardless of their sexual orientation, with the same rights afforded couples in a traditional marriage arrangement but without calling it "marriage". I think most Christians would have no problem backing something like that, simply because we believe in a sense of fairness and equality for our fellow man, not because we endorse the behavior. There are plenty of religious communities out there that will "marry" these sorts of couples already so there should be no need to push the religious acceptance issue further than that.

Domestic partnerships do not have all the same rights as a married couple. Moreover, What you are telling a gay couple is that their relationship is not real, and that they are different form regular people. It's segregation plain and simple.

Christianity is and always has been outlawed and/or greatly prohibited in many parts of the world. I don't believe our Constitution is set up to be able to keep people from practicing their religion but if that's someones thing and they want to try, I guess they have every right to go for it.

Where did you get that? I mean never mind the fact that the pope has been for the longest time the central power in Europe. That he had power over kings, over lands, and over lives.

Why do you imply that there are religious restrictions placed on marriage simply because same-sex marriages are not permitted? What does biology and common sense have to do with religious restrictions? Could you please define what religious restrictions exactly you are referring to? Any couple comprised of a male and a female may legally marry one another if they are of age and consent, regardless of their religious or sexual orientation.

Marriage is about biology? Since when does love have a biological limitation? Does that mean you cannot love your mother, or sister etc? Absurd. What about Jesus then? Can a man love Jesus? Also, your argument is backwards. Sexual Orientation describes what you are mentally predisposed to be attracted to. Would you marry someone you would never be intimate with? No, and it is absurd to think that other people should just grin an bear it.

If you were to take that up with the general public, they would uphold the definition as given in the DOMA with their ballots, which happened in California with Proposition 8.

That point is not valid. You don't live here, you don't know. The pro prop 8 people resorted to outright lies. Using fear mongering to sway the vote. You saw the ad that I posted. Outright lies. What does marriage have to do with being a doctor? That is an abortion issue. How does allowing gay marriage change public school curriculum? You may make fun, but these were the selling points to prop 8.

Posted by Trixi Much, if not most, of what you value in civilization has a Christian origin like universities, hospitals, museums

First known universities in the "modern" world (ie, let's use Jesus as a benchmark, 2000 years ago) were created by the Muslims, centuries after Christianity arose. For the first 700 years after Christ, there were no universities...not until Islam came. Sri Lanka introduced the idea of institutional hospitals around the same time -- unrelated to any religion.

For the claim of inventing Museums, I had to turn to the internet - which tells me that the first "public" museum was the British Museum in 1759 (a tad late to be attributing to "Christianity"), and the first free Museum was the Louvre, opened post-Revolution (very definitely anti-Christian).

Christians offered many developments in science and culture, but they stood on the shoulders of giants before them. (+10 points for recognising irony in that paraphrase).

Posted by dirt Where did you get that? I mean never mind the fact that the pope has been for the longest time the central power in Europe. That he had power over kings, over lands, and over lives.

Well now, that is true, but Christianity is illegal in many places right now. And of course, the majority of the New Testament was written by a guy who had been an anti-Christian enforcer before he decided to become a cult leader.

Posted by Yehoshua First known universities in the "modern" world (ie, let's use Jesus as a benchmark, 2000 years ago) were created by the Muslims, centuries after Christianity arose.

Good point, I had let that one slip past me.

I can't really think of any progress in thought or culture that could be attributed primarily to Christianity, and obviously it has been the cause of many hindrances.

It seems that most of the "good stuff" comes from Islamic cultures and Greece. Of course, there were a whole lot of advances in architecture and bureaucracy that came from Rome, but ya know, for the most part, that place wasn't such a shining example of good Christiandom.

Posted by dirt I thought love was a major part of Christianity, yet those are such hateful words. Jesus would be ashamed, yet would have compassion for your misguided concepts.

Love is all that Christianity is about which is why I continue to post here, out of love, even though I know I will immediately be berated, belittled and made fun of.

Jesus said in Matthew 10:34-39:
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's enemies will be those of his household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me."

He warned of being self-righteous, and preached humility.

You are confusing self-righteousness with Christian duty.

James 5:19-20:
"My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back, he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

and in 1 Timothy 5:20:

"Reprimand publicly those who do sin, so that the rest also will be afraid."

It is my idea that each person should be allowed to do what they want.

This is precisely the problem.

Posted by dirt And I have to deal with the hurt of such an oppressive mind set on a daily level. I see people being pigeon-holed into roles that do not fit what is in their heart of hearts. When you make a person wrong like that, you cause them pain. That is a sin against humanity and god.

How have I hurt you by expressing an opinion you don't agree with? I never claimed anyone was "wrong" to have homosexual feelings or desires, just as I don't claim it is "wrong" for a pedophile to have sexual feelings for children. Acting on those unnatural desires and encouraging others to do so is the true sin against humanity and God.

To quote our President (regarding abortion, but it fits nicely here):

"...the fact is that at some level, the views of the two camps are irreconcilable. Each side will continue to make its case to the public with passion and conviction. But surely we can do so without reducing those with differing views to caricature."

It's one of the few things he has said that I can appreciate.

Posted by Trixi Love is all that Christianity is about which is why I continue to post here, out of love, even though I know I will immediately be berated, belittled and made fun of.

I appreciate your tenacity and conviction, and the fact that you seem to interpret your beliefs in a much less harmful way than a large percentage of your people.

But, I would really love to know if you understand the fact that quoting the bible as rationale for your actions is a really silly way to communicate with people who think that it is nonsense.

I mean, I understand if your response is that, every time you use a quote, you increase the chance that someone will eventually read one of the posts in a moment of weakness and attribute some kind of wisdom to it, but do you actually know that it just reinforces the idea that you cannot think logically?

Posted by MutantMandias I appreciate your tenacity and conviction, and the fact that you seem to interpret your beliefs in a much less harmful way than a large percentage of your people.

I suspect mind-altering drugs helped alot...seriously. But that's another story. I'm just a old hippie chick that loves Christ and His Church, minus the pit hair, love beads and fringe.

But, I would really love to know if you understand the fact that quoting the bible as rationale for your actions is a really silly way to communicate with people who think that it is nonsense.

Not if those people who think it's nonsense want to know why Christians act the way they do. When dirt suggested that Jesus wouldn't want us to admonish someone who was sinning, he was presumably using the Scriptures as a reference to present his argument since all we know about Jesus' life and teachings come from Holy Scripture. My response simply quoted the same Scripture to show that he was mistaken and to support why Christians take responsibility for trying to keep their brothers and sisters from sin, which can only be found in the Bible.

I mean, I understand if your response is that, every time you use a quote, you increase the chance that someone will eventually read one of the posts in a moment of weakness and attribute some kind of wisdom to it, but do you actually know that it just reinforces the idea that you cannot think logically?

I say what I believe in without apology and enjoy intelligent discussion, otherwise I would just go post on some forum where everyone agrees with my opinions. If someone else reads a quote or post and finds wisdom in it, cool, however, I fail to see how quoting the Bible during a discussion of Jesus implies that I cannot think logically.

Posted by Trixi Love is all that Christianity is about which is why I continue to post here, out of love, even though I know I will immediately be berated, belittled and made fun of. Jesus said in Matthew 10:34-39: "Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's enemies will be those of his household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me." You are confusing self-righteousness with Christian duty. James 5:19-20: "My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back, he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." and in 1 Timothy 5:20: "Reprimand publicly those who do sin, so that the rest also will be afraid." This is precisely the problem.

I separate Jesus from the bible. The Bible is a pack of half truths. The only goal of the bible is to makes sure that the few can control the many. You say I'm wrong, that I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm saying I know more about it than you suspect. When Jesus during an exorcism, told the demon to name itself, he was doing one of the oldest forms of shamanic exorcism. To name a demon calls it, to get it to name it's self, exorcises it. Magic 101. Which is one of the many things the bible is against. Yet at the same time preaches the use of magic. Because prayer is magic. I can explain it if you wish, but you might go to hell.

some interesting reads:
http://www.gnosis....ghamm/gosthom.html

http://www.gnosis....ghamm/thunder.html

Posted by Trixi How have I hurt you by expressing an opinion you don't agree with? I never claimed anyone was "wrong" to have homosexual feelings or desires, just as I don't claim it is "wrong" for a pedophile to have sexual feelings for children. Acting on those unnatural desires and encouraging others to do so is the true sin against humanity and God.

Don't play dumb. It is exactly that reasoning among others that that harm so many people. It's not your opinion. The bible is the word of god remember. The only thing that is true./sarcasm/. which brings to the next part. . .

To quote our President (regarding abortion, but it fits nicely here): "...the fact is that at some level, the views of the two camps are irreconcilable. Each side will continue to make its case to the public with passion and conviction. But surely we can do so without reducing those with differing views to caricature." It's one of the few things he has said that I can appreciate.

I agree that we should have compassion for each other. The problem lies in self righteousness on both our parts. Through meditation and spiritual work, I have seen(not known as that is impossible) god in the purest form possible. I can spot truth a mile away as well as lies. I can see the truth in the lies, and lies in the truth. But based off the bible, I'm evil, I'm going to hell, etc. In my tradition, that is called a make wrong. Once you see god, you will understand how absurd it is to make others wrong. Once again, I can try to explain god(although it would only be a finger pointing at the moon), but if I was to do so, you would probably go to hell too.

Posted by Trixi Not if those people who think it's nonsense want to know why Christians act the way they do. When dirt suggested that Jesus wouldn't want us to admonish someone who was sinning, he was presumably using the Scriptures as a reference to present his argument since all we know about Jesus' life and teachings come from Holy Scripture. My response simply quoted the same Scripture to show that he was mistaken and to support why Christians take responsibility for trying to keep their brothers and sisters from sin, which can only be found in the Bible.

You made an assumption that is not quite accurate. I was basing my argument on the whole. History, magic studies, bible, reason etc. Knowing his actions, I doubt he would want to make others wrong. I don't think that what you call sin is a real. I don't believe in sin. I see too much of how it works.

Posted by dirt I separate Jesus from the bible. The Bible is a pack of half truths. The only goal of the bible is to makes sure that the few can control the many. You say I'm wrong, that I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm saying I know more about it than you suspect. When Jesus during an exorcism, told the demon to name itself, he was doing one of the oldest forms of shamanic exorcism. To name a demon calls it, to get it to name it's self, exorcises it. Magic 101. Which is one of the many things the bible is against. Yet at the same time preaches the use of magic. Because prayer is magic. I can explain it if you wish, but you might go to hell. some interesting reads: http://www.gnosis....ghamm/gosthom.html http://www.gnosis....ghamm/thunder.html

Thanks for the links. I have read most of the Gnostic literature and find it extremely interesting and enlightening. I've spent more than a few years studying the origin and content of these texts as well as the reasons why they were not included in the Bible.

A person (or Jesus) calling out a demon (a spirit being) during an exorcism is not the same as someone trying to manipulate the natural world to facilitate a personal goal, which is what magic does. Prayer is not magical, it is concentrated thought directed toward God with His will being the primary motive, not our own. Please do explain your interpretation of prayer, I am fairly certain I won't burn in hell if you do

Posted by Trixi Prayer is not magical, it is concentrated thought directed toward God with His will being the primary motive, not our own.

That's awesome. So, that's like when a basketball player says that they won because of God? And it is also extremely awesome since He works in mysterious ways and stuff, and there is no way to ever know if what He wants is what we want, and even if what He wants is the death of babies and Jews, then that is Good because He wanted it.

So, I can pray for the death of Jews, right? And then, if God blows up the Middle East, I will know that I am more holy than you, since I was praying on His side. If you had been praying for peace, then you would be a major chump. God would be all "Yo! I willed that shit to blow up, yo! Anybody praying for peace.. they be crazazy!"

Posted by MutantMandias And it is also extremely awesome since He works in mysterious ways and stuff, and there is no way to ever know if what He wants is what we want, and even if what He wants is the death of babies and Jews, then that is Good because He wanted it.

Well, that's one way to look at it. Without being too presumptuous, I would suggest that killing babies and Jews is man's will alone and not God's. Ideally, our prayers should not be offered to try to change the course of events, but to acknowledge that God is in charge and to unite our will with His.

So, I can pray for the death of Jews, right? And then, if God blows up the Middle East, I will know that I am more holy than you, since I was praying on His side. If you had been praying for peace, then you would be a major chump. God would be all "Yo! I willed that shit to blow up, yo! Anybody praying for peace.. they be crazazy!"

Of course you can pray for anything you like, even the death of Jews if you really wanted to. I prayed that Obama would lose the election. God's answer was no. I believe this is the reason why Jesus taught us to pray asking that "Thy will be done" so as not to confuse our own with that of God's. I don't assume that because Obama won the election that my prayers were not heard or that those who did pray for him to win are somehow holier than me due to the outcome of the election.

Posted by Trixi Just as you have the right to disagree with Christian ideals and values in the public arena, we are also permitted to share what we accept to be true and support political action which validates and upholds those principles.

But if you legislate based on what you consider to be moral, then actually acting morally doesn't mean anything, because you're just following the law. I'm a Catholic, but I believe that the only laws that we should have are ones that protect people. Deciding what is and what isn't moral is not the role of the government.

Also, the opinions of people in human rights issues, such as same sex marriage, are completely irrelevant, because, for example, in the case of same sex marriage, it's the business of exactly two people- those who wish to get married. Should we have had a vote to get rid of the old Jim Crow laws? Should we have had a vote to determine voting rights?

Okay, so you were doing magic when you prayed for Obama to lose, because you were hoping to manipulate the natural world to facilitate a personal goal.

But, thank you for making this clear to me, prayer is the act of hoping that whatever is going to happen is what is going to happen.

Posted by Trixi A person (or Jesus) calling out a demon (a spirit being) during an exorcism is not the same as someone trying to manipulate the natural world to facilitate a personal goal, which is what magic does. Prayer is not magical, it is concentrated thought directed toward God with His will being the primary motive, not our own. Please do explain your interpretation of prayer, I am fairly certain I won't burn in hell if you do

note: It's early so my brain is jelly.

All magic is done with the mind. You are placing your attention on a particular thing. When you pray to god, you are asking the ALL to manifest your will. When doing magic, it is the same thing.

Based off my personal research, I have come to a few conclusions. But here is the deal, I want you to place in your attention on the thing behind the words, not the words themselves.

Lets begin with the foundation. Everything is alive. No only is everything in a constant state of vibration, there is also awareness. This vibration is called Ākāśa by the yogis. The there is Prana, this is the finer energy that get filtered into various other states like mind, love(not the physical emotion), gravity etc. Ātman is the spirit. While each person has Ātman, they are all connect and in a sense there is only one Ātman. Jesus knew this:30. Jesus said, "Where there are three deities, they are divine. Where there are two or one, I am with that one."

77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

God is the sum of all things. Each one of us is god, and so is the split piece of wood. There is no will of god, will is a human thing, a filter. God is infinite, there is no reason, and there is no reason to put things on god that are limits.

I'm tired. . .

Posted by Roland I'm a Catholic, but I believe that the only laws that we should have are ones that protect people. Deciding what is and what isn't moral is not the role of the government.

I completely agree. Which is why I support legislation which would allow any couple the same legal rights as traditional married couples yet do not attempt to redefine marriage to include same-sex or other types of unions.

Also, the opinions of people in human rights issues, such as same sex marriage, are completely irrelevant, because, for example, in the case of same sex marriage, it's the business of exactly two people- those who wish to get married...

Marriage is not a human rights issue, it is a sacrament.

"Conjugal love involves a totality, in which all the elements of the person enter—appeal of the body and instinct, power of feeling and affectivity, aspiration of the spirit and of will. It aims at a deeply personal unity, a unity that, beyond union in one flesh, leads to forming one heart and soul; it demands indissolubility and faithfulness in definitive mutual giving; and it is open to fertility. In a word it is a question of the normal characteristics of all natural conjugal love, but with a new significance which not only purifies and strengthens them, but raises them to the extent of making them the expression of specifically Christian values."--C.C.C. 1643

Same-sex couples who consider themselves Christians and "married" are in rebellion and should be counseled with compassion and love, not encouraged.

Posted by dirt note: It's early so my brain is jelly. All magic is done with the mind. You are placing your attention on a particular thing. When you pray to god, you are asking the ALL to manifest your will. When doing magic, it is the same thing. Based off my personal research, I have come to a few conclusions. But here is the deal, I want you to place in your attention on the thing behind the words, not the words themselves. Lets begin with the foundation. Everything is alive. No only is everything in a constant state of vibration, there is also awareness. This vibration is called Ākāśa by the yogis. The there is Prana, this is the finer energy that get filtered into various other states like mind, love(not the physical emotion), gravity etc. Ātman is the spirit. While each person has Ātman, they are all connect and in a sense there is only one Ātman. Jesus knew this:30. Jesus said, "Where there are three deities, they are divine. Where there are two or one, I am with that one." 77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." God is the sum of all things. Each one of us is god, and so is the split piece of wood. There is no will of god, will is a human thing, a filter. God is infinite, there is no reason, and there is no reason to put things on god that are limits. I'm tired. . .

That was beautiful. Thank you