Just sayin.

Let's talk more about oral, shall we?

I still LOL @ him asking for 8 million to build his hospital or "Jesus will call me home," and getting 9 million. And love that he did for lulz "I saw a 900 foot Jesus," because that isn't awesome or anything.

As gawker.com put it, Oral Roberts has finally been killed for not raising enough money.

Well, good riddance to bad trash. This dirtbag made thousands of people's lives worse with his outright lies about healing and sucking money away from the poor and less educated.

He claimed he could heal the sick, heal people with tuberculosis, and even raise the dead - except his son Ronald who killed himself - and of course his sick old self.

How come he never healed any amputees? Oh, right....

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

He was scum in every sense of the word. He took money from the poor while he lived in a 17 million dollar house. Scum as in corruption. Scum as is hypocritical. His daughter ran up $800 a month phone bills and played around with underage boys.

Let's not forget his mind-killing institution of evangelism; Oral Roberts university that gave us such super heroes as Ted Haggard, and that grinning dirtbag Joel Osteen. He was a toxic virus and a blight on the world that paved the way for a generation of slick-talking snake oil sellers like Jim Bakker and Jerry Falwell.

The money pit hospital that he built, after the 900 ft jesus told him to, only lasted 9 years before going bankrupt.

he'll be right back though:

" I’m looking to the world to come because I’m not going to stay over there. I’m coming back. And I’m going to help bring that world to come with me and put it right on top of this world right here that’s been persecuting me. And I’m going to get my rightful place. I’m going to rule and I’m going to reign. You look at Oral Roberts University, what happens to it when I get back from the other side."

This sort of begs the question why his family is sad, or even that the old bugger held on for so long. I mean he is supposedly in a better place, at least until he comes back to sort out his university (that was $50 million in the hole until it god bailed out by some moron billionaire that thought he could buy salvation)- and maybe the homos he hated so much too.

And what if he doesn't come back? What will that mean to the followers he left behind?

As Hunter S. Thompson said about Richard Nixon: "His body should have been burned in a trash bin"

Posted by tekriter As gawker.com put it, Oral Roberts has finally been killed for not raising enough money. He claimed he could heal the sick, heal people with tuberculosis, and even raise the dead - except his son Ronald who killed himself - and of course his sick old self. As Hunter S. Thompson said about Richard Nixon: "His body should have been burned in a trash bin"

Bastard never did anything for my hemorrhoids. All I can say is, a fool and his money are soon parted. I used to work for an audiovisual company that made lots of money installing AV equipment in churches. One church install we did was $300K worth of sound (Neumann mics, Midas board, etc.), lights (Vari*Lites, etc.) and video (Grass Valley video switcher, two 10K lumens projectors). My boss about killed me when I said "Wouldn't it be nice if they spent all this money on helping the poor rather than all this gear?" I got fired a few months later.

There's a church in Cleveland called The Word that attracts probably 10,000 every Sunday. We did the install on the pastor's house. All I can say is "damn." I could go into details, but I won't.

For every Anal Roberts out there (seriously, who would name their kid "Oral?") there are a hundred like him, just not on as big a scale. It is advertising, pure and simple. Only their product is salvation, not soda or shampoo or fast fod.

Posted by tekriter As gawker.com put it, Oral Roberts has finally been killed for not raising enough money. Well, good riddance to bad trash. This dirtbag made thousands of people's lives worse with his outright lies about healing and sucking money away from the poor and less educated. He claimed he could heal the sick, heal people with tuberculosis, and even raise the dead - except his son Ronald who killed himself - and of course his sick old self. How come he never healed any amputees? Oh, right.... http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/ He was scum in every sense of the word. He took money from the poor while he lived in a 17 million dollar house. Scum as in corruption. Scum as is hypocritical. His daughter ran up $800 a month phone bills and played around with underage boys. Let's not forget his mind-killing institution of evangelism; Oral Roberts university that gave us such super heroes as Ted Haggard, and that grinning dirtbag Joel Osteen. He was a toxic virus and a blight on the world that paved the way for a generation of slick-talking snake oil sellers like Jim Bakker and Jerry Falwell. The money pit hospital that he built, after the 900 ft jesus told him to, only lasted 9 years before going bankrupt. he'll be right back though: " I’m looking to the world to come because I’m not going to stay over there. I’m coming back. And I’m going to help bring that world to come with me and put it right on top of this world right here that’s been persecuting me. And I’m going to get my rightful place. I’m going to rule and I’m going to reign. You look at Oral Roberts University, what happens to it when I get back from the other side." This sort of begs the question why his family is sad, or even that the old bugger held on for so long. I mean he is supposedly in a better place, at least until he comes back to sort out his university (that was $50 million in the hole until it god bailed out by some moron billionaire that thought he could buy salvation)- and maybe the homos he hated so much too. And what if he doesn't come back? What will that mean to the followers he left behind? As Hunter S. Thompson said about Richard Nixon: "His body should have been burned in a trash bin"

*cracks fingers* I feel I should say something here. This is the truth as I believe it. I'm simply trying to make a point here by asking questions and stating the truth, nothing more.

His ministry spread Gods Word all over the world and set a bench mark for all other Christians to follow.

NO MAN CAN HEAL THE SICK, only Gods spirit working through a man can do that.

It is all about FAITH. With out it nothing is possible. Faith is believing with out seeing, therefore in order for someone to receive the healing from God that they are entitled to, they must first have complete 100% faith in Jesus, or it aint gonna happen. This is exactly why "amputees" do not get healed, or at least we do not hear about it. It is such an overwhelmingly faith destroying sight to see someone with out an arm or leg. Its totally visual and that fills your mind with doubt. How can God heal you if you dont believe he can???

Why do you think Joel Osteen is a dirtbag? What horrible things has he done?

Name one person that lived a worse life because of these men.

Oral Roberts was just a man, nothing more. He wasnt some blasted saint, he was just a man who listened to God. And the mistakes and blunders that he did make were the result of him not listening to God and doing things his own way.

I was born in the Hospital that he built, still one of the largest and modern structures in the state. Its now a cancer treatment facility that saves lives.


The world has this twisted idea that Christians should be these perfect people without flaws that walk around in frickin white robs or something. This fascinates me.

Christians are normal people faced with the same problems, same issues, and same temptations as everyone else. THE ONLY real difference between a Christian and a secular person is the fact that a Christian has a relationship with Jesus, and has broken the curse of sin off their life (as long as they have faith and obey God), and a relationship is an ongoing trial and error process.

So when you criticize a Christian, you're criticizing some one who makes mistakes just like everyone else, but at the same time they are trying to save people from death. And I dont mean physical death, everyone will die, everything has been under a curse from day one, Christians are here to save souls.

Why would anyone want to criticize Christians for trying (even though they are not perfect) to save lives and help people? Oh right, because some people are afraid of the truth and what it might mean for them if they dont repent.

Posted by Mr_Fiend *cracks fingers* I feel I should say something here.

Yawn. I'm wearing my surprised face. Oh - hold on there are some wierdos ringing my doorbell. Nevermind, just some other folks who just felt they had to say something.

Posted by Mr_Fiend Name one person that lived a worse life because of these men.

Start with all the poor, under educated folks who actually believe BS like "god will take me if you don't send me cash" and sent him millions (like $88 Million in 1980 alone), to the people who no god would feed or cloth while Oral roberts lived in an opulent mansion, drove a fleet of cars (including 3 mercedes) and embezzled money like it was his "calling", to anyone that actually believed that TV preachers could heal them and suffered for it. (mebbe his son could heal your cracked fingers)

Posted by Mr_Fiend but at the same time they are trying to save people from death.

Ay, but there's the rub. Nobody will survive their own death. The concept is A) ridiculous, B ) implausible, and C) unjustified and unencumbered by EVIDENCE, just like nearly everything Oral Roberts ever said in his quest to empty the plates of the poor and gullible to line his own pockets.

Oral Roberts was a buffoon that spoke in tongues and suggested he could "heal" people. He was a pioneer of sorts, one that we can all blame for the plague of televangelism. The hospital you mention was a misadventure and an epic failure that wasted enough money to run a small african country - and helped essentially no one - Tulsa already had too many hospitals. And where is the 900 ft jesus that told him to do it? (and why didn't jesus know that there was no need for a hospital...why do they need a cancer ward when faith alone could heal them...on that note, why would a merciful god create cancer, MS and the heartbreak of psoriasis?)

He was a crook and a liar, and we are all poorer for having seen his con and allowed him to poison our water.

God dam! My doorbell is ringing again...

Posted by tekriter Oh - hold on there are some wierdos ringing my doorbell. Nevermind, just some other folks who just felt they had to say something.

Most likely Jehovah's witnesses or Mormons. Light a small wooden cross on fire (preferably with some sort of accelerant) and start to chase them off your property with it. If you’re lucky, they may drop all of their pamphlets that sweet talk you into their cult. These may also be burned. Those are the real crooks and liars, they take money from people to help spread false truth.

Posted by tekriter Start with all the poor, under educated folks who actually believe BS like "god will take me if you don't send me cash" and sent him millions (like $88 Million in 1980 alone), to the people who no god would feed or cloth while Oral roberts lived in an opulent mansion, drove a fleet of cars (including 3 mercedes) and embezzled money like it was his "calling", to anyone that actually believed that TV preachers could heal them and suffered for it. (mebbe his son could heal your cracked fingers)

Someone has filled you full of lies and misconceptions, I'm sorry. You've apparently never been exposed to a true non religious Christian. Hopefully I can clear some things up for you and anyone else reading.

Ah yes, the almighty poor. I was poor once, grew up in the slums, a rodent infested apartment in an area with more drugs than a pharmacy. Oral's approach may have been unorthodox (and he could have been doing the exact opposite of what God was telling him, no one knows) but it’s all about someone’s intentions. That money was used to strengthen his ministry, to build buildings where people could come together, and of course support his television movement. Why are those such bad things? People have a choice, we all do. You can choose not to give someone money, it’s pretty simple really. If people willingly gave him money, how can he be a crook? And "the poor", the "under educated" as you put it, didnt empty their life savings into his church as you make it sound, thats beyond ridiculous. You sure do know a lot about his personal life, a hell of a lot more than me.

Probably what you don’t know is that Church's pay their pastors just like a company pays their CEO. The pastor runs the church, and therefore is paid based on the success and income of the church. Any old person that gives money to a church knows that it is the only source of income for the staff and pastor, its their way of life, their career, its simple. Now, what they do with that money is entirely up to them. Oral made a lot of money and apparently had "3 mercedes". I dont see anything wrong with a pastor prospering and being blessed with a successful church full of people who know exactly where the money goes, if they don’t then they are ignorant fools with blank checks ready to be written at the drop of a hat. Now if he really did "embezzle" money that belonged to the church, then God dealt with him on that.

I never met the man, but I remember being only a few feet away from him in person once. He didn’t have to say a word and still had the respect and honor of anyone around him. I don’t know if he made mistakes or not, but who the hell cares! No one’s perfect! He made an effort, more so than most people, to spread the truth around to as many lost people as possible, and you need money to do that effectively. Where there is a need, there are people who are willing to give. Cause and effect, no mystery there.

Posted by tekriter Ay, but there's the rub. Nobody will survive their own death.

To quote myself, "And I dont mean physical death, everyone will die, everything has been under a curse from day one, Christians are here to save souls."
You're very right, everyone WILL die and be put six feet under, there is no question about it. But what sets us apart from other creatures, is that we have a soul, you, me, every person has a soul that will never die.

You have a choice, everyone has a choice. You can chose to believe you are a soulless nothing, meant to do nothing with no purpose, and die a meaningless life that didn’t amount to anything, only to cease to exist because all you were was a shell of flesh and blood, nothing more than some random deer you hit and kill on the highway. Man, that must suck to live like that, really must. OR you can choose to believe that you are here for a reason, you have a purpose, you just have to ask for it. You have a soul, you have meaning even if everyone thinks you suck at life. When your body dies, your soul will still live, and by "live" I mean living in a place with no sin, no pain, no suffering. Your soul is everything you are, its what makes you human, its your conscience, something that sets you apart from soulless animals. And to "save" a soul, there has to be a place you are saving it from going; hell, pit of fire, whatever you want to call it. If you want to go to a place where Gods presence does not exist, thats it. When God lifts his hand of protection, sin and death has free roam.

"EVIDENCE", there isnt any, or at least none that you will believe. Which is normal, thats being human. I'm the same way, I have to see it to believe it. But thats where it becomes real, when you start to believe in something you cannot see, things will start to manifest, understanding, hope, sound mind, and God will reveal himself to you. Its called faith, you have to believe in Him.

Alright, call me crazy till your blue in the face. If you’re so sure, why dont you try it. Try to talk to this "God" that you apparently doubt. And I mean really try. You tell Him that you believe in Him and you know he is real and you want to listen to Him. Try it! I dare you! You dont need a bible, you dont need to be in a church, you dont need a priest, just talk to Him. The worst that could happen is you could learn the truth, gasp! Oh no, not the truth! We are all explorers on here, we take risks, go places others dare not go and most people think we are nuts, only because they havent seen what we have, they havent felt that feeling of satisfaction like we have. Think of it the same way, risk talking to God.

Posted by tekriter and why didn't jesus know that there was no need for a hospital...why do they need a cancer ward when faith alone could heal them...on that note, why would a merciful god create cancer, MS and the heartbreak of psoriasis?

No! I'm sick and tired of hearing this! God did not create sin and death! He didnt create cancer, he didnt create earthquakes, he didnt create any of that! And the old "why did God take him/her away from me?" is utter bull! Bad things happen, people get sick, earthquakes happen and disease spreads, all because of the lack of Gods graces, sin and death (Satan/Lucifer/the devil/ the big red dude with a pitch fork) Sin is simply the lack of God, exactly why someone who sins cannot enter heaven, even though God loves them, sin cannot exist in his presence, period. That doesn’t even make sense for got to create death. Where God isn’t, Satan runs free like a loose pit-bull in a kindergarten playground. God isn’t punishing you when something bad happens, you have fallen out of his graces. When you succumb to sin and its pleasures, you open the door up for satan and his angels/demons/evil spirits (again, whatever you want to call them), and THAT’S HOW bad things, such as cancer and horrible events happen. And while I’m at it, God doesn’t hate anyone, especially the gays, yep, that’s right, he does NOT hate gays.
He hates their sin, just like everyone else’s. Sin is sin in His eyes. But he gave us all a choice, life or death, and again I don’t mean physical death.

By the way you speak, I’m willing to bet you went to church at one point, or were around people who did, parents maybe? You know all the right questions to ask in order to doubt everything a Christian believes. But I’ve done my homework too, I don’t give up like other pansy Christians, I don’t sit on my ass and let people beat me up, I fight back and present my case. I have nothing against you, or anyone, neither does God. I’m trying to expose the truth here. You have so much hostility towards this man, and other men like him. I hope you will understand that these men were just trying to do the right thing, and they were just men, they can make mistakes. Their intentions were to save lives, not kill or destroy them. EVEN if they had given into the stereotype “religious, give me all your money or perish”, they still were trying to save people from eternal death. And whether you believe in God or not, I don’t think its fair to say that someone like that is a “dirt bag” or a “buffoon”. I find it funny that people have more hate/fear for preachers and God than they do for someone like hitler or saddam hussein. Makes you wonder what everyone is so afraid of, especially since no one has even seen God. Hmm…

Posted by Mr_Fiend tl;dr

Neither Jehovah's Witnesses nor Mormons believe in the symbolism of the cross, so you'd be better off showing them some pr0n or something.

Posted by Avius Neither Jehovah's Witnesses nor Mormons believe in the symbolism of the cross,

I know, it was an attempt at an inside joke haha. I forgot to add that you should also yell at them "repent sinners or burn in hell!" so you sound like the typical "Christian" as portrayed by movies and the media.

Posted by Mr_Fiend That money was used to strengthen his ministry, to build buildings where people could come together, and of course support his television movement. Why are those such bad things? People have a choice, we all do. You can choose not to give someone money, it’s pretty simple really. If people willingly gave him money, how can he be a crook? And "the poor", the "under educated" as you put it, didnt empty their life savings into his church as you make it sound, thats beyond ridiculous. You sure do know a lot about his personal life, a hell of a lot more than me.

Choice? It's more of a Faustian bargain: believe everything that's in this book (except for the REALLY kooky stuff in the first half) or burn for all eternity. Not much of a choice, really. And that's why so many people who otherwise don't think critically are Christians.

Probably what you don’t know is that Church's pay their pastors just like a company pays their CEO. The pastor runs the church, and therefore is paid based on the success and income of the church. Any old person that gives money to a church knows that it is the only source of income for the staff and pastor, its their way of life, their career, its simple. Now, what they do with that money is entirely up to them. Oral made a lot of money and apparently had "3 mercedes". I dont see anything wrong with a pastor prospering and being blessed with a successful church full of people who know exactly where the money goes, if they don’t then they are ignorant fools with blank checks ready to be written at the drop of a hat. Now if he really did "embezzle" money that belonged to the church, then God dealt with him on that.

Ever seen "Schindler's List?" Near the end, Schindler pulls off his gold Nazi pins and remarks about how many more people he could have saved had he not bought the pins and stuff. How many more poor people could Oral have helped had he bought Caddies instead of Mercedeses? Or just one? Comparing him to a CEO right now probably isn't the best idea.

The idea is that people should have been able to trust him. More than just with their money, but with their souls. And the used-car salesmen presentation dragged a lot of gullible people in, checkbooks in hand, who actually believe he could miraculously heal the sick. I can't fault people for being stupid, but people who take advantage of that are... well, they defy description.

You have a choice, everyone has a choice. You can chose to believe you are a soulless nothing, meant to do nothing with no purpose, and die a meaningless life that didn’t amount to anything, only to cease to exist because all you were was a shell of flesh and blood, nothing more than some random deer you hit and kill on the highway. Man, that must suck to live like that, really must.

That's a good point, and that's what keeps a lot of people believing. For me, knowing that I evolved from (hopefully) lower-order animals and that death is indeed the end makes my life all the more precious, because I know that this is the only chance I get. It also makes me more determined to make a difference in the world, because I know it will go on long after I'm gone.

Your soul is everything you are, its what makes you human, its your conscience, something that sets you apart from soulless animals.

Why are animals soulless? So monkeys and dolphins that can communicate and appear to have self-awareness are soulless?

"EVIDENCE", there isnt any, or at least none that you will believe. Which is normal, thats being human. I'm the same way, I have to see it to believe it. But thats where it becomes real, when you start to believe in something you cannot see, things will start to manifest, understanding, hope, sound mind, and God will reveal himself to you. Its called faith, you have to believe in Him.

How about some evidence I can't believe? (Although I'd say by definition it wouldn't be "evidence") How does one know one is having a "religious" experience and not suffering from a psychological problem? Some people have seen Jesus's face on toast, or oil tanks, etc. I see demon faces in the tiles of my shower. Does that mean I'm damned? How do I know that they're real and not just figments of my imagination?

Alright, call me crazy till your blue in the face. If you’re so sure, why dont you try it. Try to talk to this "God" that you apparently doubt. And I mean really try. You tell Him that you believe in Him and you know he is real and you want to listen to Him.

I'd recommend asking for evidence of his existence. If I were to say I believe in him, I presume he'd know I was lying. The honest thing would be to ask for evidence. I think that's fair. And something that couldn't be ascribed to coincidence. Maybe, Osama bin Laden surrendering after his conversion to Christianity. I'll leave my dog explaining Fermat's Last Theorem for another time.

No! I'm sick and tired of hearing this! God did not create sin and death! He didnt create cancer, he didnt create earthquakes, he didnt create any of that! And the old "why did God take him/her away from me?" is utter bull!

But didn't God create everything? Isn't he omnipotent?

When you succumb to sin and its pleasures, you open the door up for satan and his angels/demons/evil spirits (again, whatever you want to call them), and THAT’S HOW bad things, such as cancer and horrible events happen.

So, plate tectonics doesn't cause earthquakes? Smoking doesn't cause lung cancer? I just want clarification, because if that's the case about cancer, I need to let all the people in the med school in which I work know. Boy will they be surprised!

But I’ve done my homework too, I don’t give up like other pansy Christians, I don’t sit on my ass and let people beat me up, I fight back and present my case. I have nothing against you, or anyone, neither does God. I’m trying to expose the truth here. You have so much hostility towards this man, and other men like him. I hope you will understand that these men were just trying to do the right thing, and they were just men, they can make mistakes. Their intentions were to save lives, not kill or destroy them. EVEN if they had given into the stereotype “religious, give me all your money or perish”, they still were trying to save people from eternal death. And whether you believe in God or not, I don’t think its fair to say that someone like that is a “dirt bag” or a “buffoon”. I find it funny that people have more hate/fear for preachers and God than they do for someone like hitler or saddam hussein. Makes you wonder what everyone is so afraid of, especially since no one has even seen God. Hmm…

Glad you did your homework. I appreciate that. Really, I do. The reason one could justify calling Oral Roberts and his ilk "dirtbags" isn't that they made mistakes. Everyone does. It is another thing entirely to beg money from people who give it in the belief that they are donating money to good causes (like keeping Oral alive) when in fact a large portion of it goes to personally enrich Oral and his cronies. I call that extortion.

But don't get me wrong. There are churches that do a lot of good for communities. There's a papist church in Cleveland (where I live) where the parish priest, in addition to serving food to the poor, actually fixes the cars of parishioners who can't afford to have their cars fixed. That church also runs a clothing exchange where people who need a suit or whatever for a job interview can get one cheap or free, from suits people have donated. The priest has not, to my knowledge, appeared on TV.THAT is the kind of work churches should do.

I could also argue that Oral sinned with pride (being on TV), greed (does one really need THREE cars?), and lust. I can't accuse of sloth, though.

And who names their kid "Oral" anyway?

Posted by Mr_Fiend I know, it was an attempt at an inside joke haha. I forgot to add that you should also yell at them "repent sinners or burn in hell!" so you sound like the typical "Christian" as portrayed by myself in my previous post.

Fixed.

Again, more good points, and I will try to answer them, but I dont have all the answers. I'm just a man who knows God.

Posted by splumer Choice? It's more of a Faustian bargain: believe everything that's in this book (except for the REALLY kooky stuff in the first half) or burn for all eternity. Not much of a choice, really. And that's why so many people who otherwise don't think critically are Christians.

There you have it though. A choice to avoid sin and temptations (which is not easy, I struggle every day) and live a righteous life, or live the life of sin (which IS death, death of the soul) and yes, "burn" for all eternity, its a metaphor, but your soul will be tormented and I don’t even want to think what that would be like. Why make it complicated though. You dont have to believe everything in the bible, shoot, you could never read a single word in it and still be saved. Its just a book, a guide book really, for those who are lost. You get "saved" by accepting Jesus into your life and then live for him from then on. Its a simple choice, life or death, but people choose death everyday because they do not understand, then God tries to speak to them but cant get through because of all the sin in their life, and that makes Him sad.

Posted by splumer Comparing him to a CEO right now probably isn't the best idea.

You're probably right, but its just a metaphor. The entire bible is full of metaphors. Why? Metaphors are timeless, they mean the same thing 2000 years ago and even in different languages that they mean today.

Posted by splumer How many more poor people could Oral have helped had he bought Caddies instead of Mercedeses? Or just one?

Ah ha! Yes! That question is the mind set of someone who wants to save people. Now you're picking at the right stuff. I dont have an answer for that, but it is a very good point of which I think of often. Some things we will never know until God tells us Himself.

Posted by splumer It also makes me more determined to make a difference in the world, because I know it will go on long after I'm gone.

Thats good, make a difference, thats what you are here for. But what about you? Do you want to simply cease to exist? Or do want to be forever rewarded for everyone you saved?

Posted by splumer Why are animals soulless? So monkeys and dolphins that can communicate and appear to have self-awareness are soulless?

Now, here is where the bible is important, its to give you understanding, to help you answer the question, "Why?". God said we were given dominion over the animals, and also that we were created in His image. God is a spirit, or a soul, they are the same thing. So if we were created in His image, we would have a soul and then given dominion over "the beasts of the land". God loves His creation, but He loves man more than anything, so much in fact that HE gave man an eternal soul so that man will always be with Him. Self-awareness has nothing to do with a soul, a soul just means you are eternal, the essence of what makes you who you are will never go away. God did not say he created animals in His image.

Posted by splumer How about some evidence I can't believe? (Although I'd say by definition it wouldn't be "evidence") How does one know one is having a "religious" experience and not suffering from a psychological problem? Some people have seen Jesus's face on toast, or oil tanks, etc. I see demon faces in the tiles of my shower. Does that mean I'm damned? How do I know that they're real and not just figments of my imagination?

Believe me, I'm just as skeptical as anyone else on matters like that. It wasn't until I was close to dying (or atleast thought I was) that I was in an extremely vulnerable state. I felt a malevolent presence try to come onto me, felt like my inner being (soul, or spirit) was being pulled away from "the light". I asked God for help. I ended up crying for hours after what I experienced, and I consider myself a tough guy that does NOT cry for anything. My life was in the wrong place, and when I was close to death, I got a taste of where my soul would go if I didnt change. I dont know if all those stories are real, and to tell you the truth, they probably arent, just "religious" people wanting attention. I wouldnt expect anyone to believe things like that unless it happens to them personally.

Posted by splumer I'd recommend asking for evidence of his existence. If I were to say I believe in him, I presume he'd know I was lying. The honest thing would be to ask for evidence. I think that's fair.

You're missing the point though. Its about taking "the leap of faith". You have to open your heart (aka your soul, there is another metaphor) to Him, only then will you know He is real. "God show yourself to me that I may know you're real" or something of sort, its a verse in the bible somewhere, I dont memorize verses. He created us in His image so that we could talk to him just as I'm talking to you now. He is a living being like you and me, just talk to Him. And you dont need a priest to forgive your sins either, thats one reason Jesus died, to break that barrier.


Yes, God created everything. But sin, is the result of not listening to God and disobeying him. Sin or "darkness" is simply the lack of God or "light". When Eve ate that fruit, she chose with the free will she was given to disobey God, when she went against what he said, his presence was lifted and "sin" (the lack of God) came into the world.

No God didnt create cancer, but He also gave us minds to invent medicine and help make a world with sin a better place. The people who refuse medicine and pray God heals them are fools! Yes pray for your healing, yes be in faith, but its wise to use recourses available. Heck, if you pray for healing God could answer your prayer by telling you to take a certain medicine or vitamin that may heal you, surely things are starting to make sense here. There are many great doctors and scientists out there that are strong believers in Jesus.

Ha! Yes, of course smoking causes cancer, and plates shifting do cause earthquakes. The earth is dying, why? Because from day one, sin was let into this world. Whats sin? The lack of God. What is God? Life. With out God there is death and sin. This is one reason why most all Christians are not giving into this global warming thing. The planet is dying. Yes, it cant hurt to try to preserve it and take care of what God has given us, but just like EVERYTHING else, it will die eventually because of the curse from the fall of man.

Posted by splumer But don't get me wrong. There are churches that do a lot of good for communities.

Thats great, thats what church's should do. BUT, are they saving souls? That is the ONLY thing that matters in eternity (because souls are forever).

You still haven't said why you think that God or souls exist in the first place. As far as I can tell, the only reason anyone thinks that at all is because of a bunch of old stories written by nomadic shepherds thousands of years ago. Why believe those old stories, instead of, say, the ones written by some OTHER group of prehistoric shepherds? What is the difference between the "leap of faith" required to believe in God, and the "leap of faith" required to believe in unicorns, mermaids, or the tooth fairy?

Posted by Avius You still haven't said why you think that God or souls exist in the first place. As far as I can tell, the only reason anyone thinks that at all is because of a bunch of old stories written by nomadic shepherds thousands of years ago. Why believe those old stories, instead of, say, the ones written by some OTHER group of prehistoric shepherds? What is the difference between the "leap of faith" required to believe in God, and the "leap of faith" required to believe in unicorns, mermaids, or the tooth fairy?

Mermaids and unicorns, although awesome, cannot save your soul, and cannot defeat sin, and they also do not love you. Faith can of course be applied to anything, just with different out comes. Faith isnt Christianity, its how you become a Christian. The dictionary defines it as believing in something that has no proof, which is basically true. The proof is when the Lord changes your soul when you give it to him, but before you can get there, you have to believe full heartedly in something you can not see-faith. You might mock it, but its not easy to have zero doubt in something.

And you're right, I didnt make my case clear as to why souls exist. I'd rather put it this way though, far more effective."You are a soulless nothing, no more important than a pile of shit". At least that way you will want to believe you have a soul with a purpose.

But again, I dont think there is a way to prove souls/spirits exist. So there you go, something think about "am I really a spirit living inside a human body?".

You start reading the bible and talking to God, you will start to get an understanding. You will begin to see things as they really are, and understand things that confused you haunted you. I know I have a soul, but I cant really explain why, I just know 100%.

I'm not actually trying to mock anything, just asking the question. I can respect you for standing up for your beliefs! A few years ago, I was carrying YOUR side of the conversation, and I know how hard it is to weather that storm. Sorry if some of my previous posts came off as a little snarky, I was trying to be thought-provoking without writing a novel!

(Here's the novel.)

I was a very religious person for most of my life. I've read the Bible front to back several times (Old Testament included), and if you add the hours up that I spent studying individual passages, it would probably equal months of my life. I've been on mission trips, and witnessed to strangers on the street. I know you can derive a lot of comfort from this stuff. However, the better and better I understood it, the more I realized how absolutely indefensible it is. Finally, after 18 months of incredibly emotional inner struggle, I could not make myself believe it any longer.

I understand, that as a christian, you believe that the loss of this knowledge must make a person into a self-loathing, nihilistic wreck. But guess what? That's not true. Since I figured out that religion is just a fictional construct, I've been happier, more confident, and less scared of death than I ever was as a believer.

The wonder and amazement I feel at the mysteries and complexities of our natural universe far outweigh any reverence I felt for the stories of my youth. And the knowledge that my existence is the result of a million, billion iterations of random chance makes me feel far more special than I ever felt as the play-doh project of an invisible creator.

I promise on my honor, if you can trust the word of a non-believer, that I am neither confused nor haunted. I've actually experienced both mind-sets, and as incomprehensible as I know it seems to you, the rational wonder of an evidence-based belief system is superior in every way to living in a cloud of faith, blindly trusting the stories that are handed to you.

Those old shepherds were pretty good at telling stories, sitting around the campfire and wondering what was holding the stars in the sky. They didn't have radio telescopes, so I can forgive them. But it's the 21st century, and as a species, we need to get past these old superstitions and realize that if we want to get to heaven, we've got to work together and BUILD it.

Posted by Avius Sorry if some of my previous posts came off as a little snarky, I was trying to be thought-provoking without writing a novel!

Thank you, but I didnt take any offense. Its all part of debating, which is what we are doing here, not yelling at eachother but rather asking questions and trying to answer them. I'm more than prepared for anyone lashing out at me for speaking the truth.

There is too much of a good thing, people do get burn out on the church. I believe what happened to you (and I'm sure would agree) is that you never experienced what you thought you should have as a believer. If that makes sense. Somewhere, someone didnt listen to God telling them you were struggling and needed help, someone didnt make it in time. The only reason I'm hear today was because there were people praying for me. Some people arent as blessed and have it harder, thats life.

I've never been on a mission trip, I've never witnessed to strangers on the street (I hope to someday change that about myself), I got too caught up in what the world had to offer; drugs, women, and so on. And that stuff IS fun, its awesome! BUT only for so long, then you start to feel empty and worthless inside. You can only enjoy all of the worlds pleasure for so long before they start to eat away at your soul, the very thing God wants to save. Pretty soon you lose who you are, and the only way to get it all back is through Jesus, plain and simple.

Posted by Avius I understand, that as a christian, you believe that the loss of this knowledge must make a person into a self-loathing, nihilistic wreck. But guess what? That's not true. Since I figured out that religion is just a fictional construct, I've been happier, more confident, and less scared of death than I ever was as a believer.

No, actually not. I know several people who are a prime example of a "model citizen" or the type of person that would give their last dime to help someone. There are plenty of giving non selfish, sound minded people out there who are not Christians, sad, but true. Thats wonderful, but it wont get you to heaven. God has gifted them with talents meant to glorify Him, not the world. Whats even more sad is that there are many Christains that are a complete mess, I know a few. Christians deal with all the same issues as everyone else. GOOD WORKS alone will NOT get you to heaven, thats a lie. It says in the bible the only way to heaven is through Jesus, somewhere in Matthew I believe, dont ask me what verse because like I said I dont memorize verses.

"religion is just a fictional construct". You're right sir! It is! Christianity should never be labled as a "religion". Catholicism, Judasim, Islam, those are religions, all pomp and circumstance, wear this, wear that, pray at this time, cross you hands over your chest and hail marry. Thats all crap! A waste of time, not to mention Islam hating Christians and explaining to kill them! Those my friend are religions!

Christianity is having a relationship with Jesus, yeah sure, go to church, its important in order to build your Faith for conversations such as this, but you dont have to go to church to be a Christian.

"Invisible creator", You have to open your eyes (your spiritual eyes, yes, I went there) to see His works in every area of life. You say invisible but to me, just looking at the stars or seeing a child born reminds me that we were created with purpose and a specific design.

Posted by Avius But it's the 21st century, and as a species, we need to get past these old superstitions and realize that if we want to get to heaven, we've got to work together and BUILD it.

Okay, so since you have heard all the stories, I'm guessing you read about the tower of babel? Its a prime example. Those men thought they were smarter than God, they attempted to build a tower to heaven believing they were so advanced. God changed their languages to prove that he is in charge and the only way to heaven is through Him.

But again, in the end, you can chose not to believe, and think these are all just "stories". All of what I said means nothing if you are not willing to have Faith and believe. You understand that, you'll understand what Oral Roberts lived for and why so many people supported him.

I believe what happened to you (and I'm sure would agree) is that you never experienced what you thought you should have as a believer.

Actually quite the opposite. I had many quite potent spiritual experiences. Some of the most potent ones happened less than a year before I started my conversion to agnosticism. The problem is that all the inconsistencies and internal contradictions in the doctrine started bugging me. And as I sought out knowledge to rectify the contradictions, in every single case, logic and rationality won out. It was painful. A thousand times I would learn something new, and think, "this can't be!" but it was. And eventually I just couldn't believe it any more. If you just take a piece of doctrine, and trace it to its source, it's not coming from God. It's coming from people.

I got too caught up in what the world had to offer; drugs, women, and so on. And that stuff IS fun, its awesome! BUT only for so long, then you start to feel empty and worthless inside. You can only enjoy all of the worlds pleasure for so long before they start to eat away at your soul

I'm glad that religion helped you escape from an empty life, but that has nothing to do with whether religion is true or not. Buddhism, or Mormonism, or a hundred other mutually exclusive philosophies do the same for people all over the world every day. The fact is that religion helped you out. But that only demonstrates that religion can be helpful in some circumstances, not that the universe was created by magic.

I actually still don't drink, use drugs, or sleep around. I still value almost all of the moral standards I grew up with, and I think that the human need for "spirituality" is real, and often ignored by secular arguments. I just don't think it actually has anything to do with spirits.

the only way to get it all back is through Jesus, plain and simple.

How do you know, just because that is how it happened for you, that it is the ONLY way? What do you say to the huge number of people who have been rescued from a bleak existence by some other philosophy, be it religious or secular?

GOOD WORKS alone will NOT get you to heaven

That is true, but then again, you have yet to give me any good reason to believe that there is any afterlife whatsoever. Wishful thinking does not alter the fabric of the universe, unfortunately.

Christianity should never be labeled as a "religion".

I have do disagree with that. You don't have to be part of an ORGANISED religion, or particular CHURCH, but a religion is any set of beliefs which use supernatural explanations to answer philosophical questions, as far as I'm concerned.

just looking at the stars or seeing a child born reminds me that we were created with purpose and a specific design.

Deeply emotional experiences such as these, while absolutely wonderful, do not in any way give us information about the forces that created the universe. They have perfectly rational physiological explanations related to the rearing of young and the need to find patterns in chaos.

That is like saying that when you feel really hungry, you can know that Santa Claus is real, because he is fat and therefore HE is probably hungry.

I'm guessing you read about the tower of babel? Its a prime example. Those men thought they were smarter than God, they attempted to build a tower to heaven believing they were so advanced. God changed their languages to prove that he is in charge and the only way to heaven is through Him.

I have indeed. And I must say I was a little disappointed when you pulled this one out. The tower of Babel is an utterly fictitious fairytale. God did not prove anything there, because there was never any tower. The pyramids in Egypt were the tallest structures on Earth for thousands of years, and they aren't even very tall. Besides, if God hates tall buildings so much, how did our civilization ever survive the construction of the Woolworth Building?

Languages have PROVABLY evolved gradually, over time. Even in recorded history. Spanish? Italian? French? All descended from Latin along with a bunch of others. You can go to any library worth its salt in England and WATCH as English evolved out of Old German. Of course, the ancient Israelites didn't know that when they were making up their creation myths.

But again, in the end, you can chose not to believe, and think these are all just "stories"

Indeed. It is true that you can believe ANYTHING if you put your mind to it. But, like that great teacher of old, I will leave you with a parable.

There were once in a certain land two laborers waiting by the way, when a wealthy merchant passed by. The merchant paused, and brought forth from his cloak a small box of fine workmanship. "Inside this box is a gem so rare and beautiful," he said, "that the man who owns it would be able to buy anything his heart desires! However, since I already have everything I desire, I will give it to you. All you must do is a small task for me in return!" and he shook the box, which indeed rattled as if it contained such a gem.

The first man arose and said, "Surely I will do this thing for you! What is your command?"

The merchant replied, "You must sell all you have and give the money to me, and be my servant for ten years."

The second man also arose. "If what you say is true, then what you ask is a small favor indeed; The fortune of a lifetime for only ten years' labor is more than fair!" He paused. "But how do I know that you will give me the stone when my servitude is over?"

"Why, as you seemed such a smart fellow, I thought you might ask," The merchant said. "I will give you the box this very day. But only after your labor is complete will I give you the key to the box!" and he rattled the box again for effect.

"I will do it!" said the first man. "The offer is more than fair!"

"But wait!" said the second man. "How do I know that the box contains the gem of which you speak?"

"Can you not hear it rattle?" asked the first man. "That is the rattle of a gem most precious, I am sure of it!"

"Indeed!" Said the merchant. "That IS the rattle of a gem most precious."

"But how do I KNOW?" said the second man.

"You must have FAITH."

"Oh, I have faith, I do!" cried the first man. Take me as your servant. Take all that I have!"

"I cannot," said the first man. "If you had such a stone, you would show us."

"How can you not trust such a selfless man!?" cried the first. "Any man who would make such a generous offer could not be lying! You shall never receive the treasure!"

"Alas, it is true," said the merchant. "Without faith, you shall never have the treasure. Such questions show that you do not deserve it." To the first who believed, he said, "Come, my faithful servant. Your reward shall be great." And the two departed to a far-off land.

Who, I ask, was the wisest of the two?

I write this tongue-in-cheek with a firm knowledge that it is, in fact, a five-cent marble rattling around in that box, but I imagine you'll probably say "what a great story! The first guy was totally the wisest! That second guy sure was dumb! Because NO WAY was that merchant a con man."

Oh man, yet again, some excellent points! Its conversations like this that allow people to see all the facts and make a decision for themselves. I'll reply in detail tomorrow.

Posted by Avius Actually quite the opposite. I had many quite potent spiritual experiences. Some of the most potent ones happened less than a year before I started my conversion to agnosticism. The problem is that all the inconsistencies and internal contradictions in the doctrine started bugging me. And as I sought out knowledge to rectify the contradictions, in every single case, logic and rationality won out. It was painful. A thousand times I would learn something new, and think, "this can't be!" but it was. And eventually I just couldn't believe it any more. If you just take a piece of doctrine, and trace it to its source, it's not coming from God. It's coming from people.

This is a more complicated subject, I dont claim to know it all, and I certainly dont have an exact answer for this, but I will tell you what I do know. When you start to question God, doubt begins to take over you. And to repeat myself, Its all based on Faith, and if you have doubt, you cant believe and you cant have Faith. If I tried, and I mean really tried to rationalize God in a physical sense with my earthly mind, I cant, and there is the beginning of doubt in God. Again, believe or dont believe.

Posted by Avius I'm glad that religion helped you escape from an empty life, but that has nothing to do with whether religion is true or not. Buddhism, or Mormonism, or a hundred other mutually exclusive philosophies do the same for people all over the world every day. The fact is that religion helped you out. But that only demonstrates that religion can be helpful in some circumstances, not that the universe was created by magic.

Those religions are false. Yes, you are right, millions of people find peace in Islam or Buddism, whatever, I'm not denying that. Those religions WILL NOT save your soul! Yes, God loves everyone, period, but if they do not accept Him and have sin in their lives, He cant let them into heaven (life, or eternal life as also referred to in the bible). And how do you know God is there, and your not worshiping the wrong god? Whenever I walk into a church (an evengelical church to be exact) I feel God presence there, and thats more than enough to convince me.

Posted by Avius How do you know, just because that is how it happened for you, that it is the ONLY way? What do you say to the huge number of people who have been rescued from a bleak existence by some other philosophy, be it religious or secular? That is true, but then again, you have yet to give me any good reason to believe that there is any afterlife whatsoever. Wishful thinking does not alter the fabric of the universe, unfortunately.

Again, yes, other "religious beliefs" can give you "hope" or whatever. But there is only one truth. I see no comparison between christianity and something like buddism, to me its a a logical choice. Why is it such a bad thing to poor your heart and soul into something that you think may be true? What could it hurt to live a moral sin free life for God? Is that so horrible? Regardless of whether or not you believe its true.

Posted by Avius Deeply emotional experiences such as these, while absolutely wonderful, do not in any way give us information about the forces that created the universe. They have perfectly rational physiological explanations related to the rearing of young and the need to find patterns in chaos. That is like saying that when you feel really hungry, you can know that Santa Claus is real, because he is fat and therefore HE is probably hungry.

To me, there is no chaos in this universe, but thats just me. Its ludacris to me to believe prefection and harmony came out of chance and chaos, but that is an entirely different conversation for another day. Like I said before, when you try to rationalize spiritual things with you physical mind, you cant do it, and you begin to doubt, which is how you loose faith. When you doubt, you start to lose, and sin gets ahold of you. You hear those cliche phrases, "Keep the Faith brother" or "Have faith in God", well, they are said constantly for reason, faith is the basis of everything. You lose your faith in God and His power, then you will eventually be taken over by sin and death.

Posted by Avius I have indeed. And I must say I was a little disappointed when you pulled this one out. The tower of Babel is an utterly fictitious fairytale. God did not prove anything there, because there was never any tower. The pyramids in Egypt were the tallest structures on Earth for thousands of years, and they aren't even very tall. Besides, if God hates tall buildings so much, how did our civilization ever survive the construction of the Woolworth Building?

Oh come now, we all know good and well no one has hard facts as to what did or didnt happen thousands of years ago, so no one can say it was fictitious. Ha! God doesnt hate tall buildings, thats ridiculous. It was the REASON they were building the tower that upset him, not the structure itself.


Yes, that story is thought provoking. But, Ive seen what God can do if you believe in him, and He certainly doesnt tease you with a little prize in a box if you do good for ten years. Once you accept Him, he gives you eternal life instantly (eternal life of the soul, not body!), you dont have to earn it, its been yours from day one, you just have to accept it. He wants you to have life with Him forever because He created you and loves you.