Posted by bandi I love flat rate repair fees. LOVE them.

When they charge you 10 hours labor plus parts but it only takes them 3 hours to do the work see how much you love them.

Oh wait I forgot, you get paid to scam people.

Flat rate repair fees are the same as paying for services not rendered. I won't bring my vehicle to a mechanic that charges them.

Posted by That 1 Guy Even warranty flat rates?

No. Not those

Posted by TheVicariousVadder When they charge you 10 hours labor plus parts but it only takes them 3 hours to do the work see how much you love them.

I am "them".

I dunno, being a mechanic, I'm all for it. I worked on a salary in a shop before, and basically didn't make any extra money for working harder. It's good motivation for me to hustle a bit, and flat rate book times are generally pretty fair.

Posted by bandi I am "them". I dunno, being a mechanic, I'm all for it. I worked on a salary in a shop before, and basically didn't make any extra money for working harder. It's good motivation for me to hustle a bit, and flat rate book times are generally pretty fair.

I edited my previous post but my dad got ripped off (his fault for not checking around first) by the dealership where he bought his truck. $2700 for a $1000 job; because if "they put their worst mechanic on it; it'd have been up on the lift for two days but they put their best mechanic on it and it was done in three hours"

Replacing two cracked manifolds in a 2000 V8 Tundra.

Posted by TheVicariousVadder Flat rate repair fees are the same as paying for services not rendered. I won't bring my vehicle to a mechanic that charges them.

Where are you going to find a mechanic that doesn't charge flat rate?

If you are willing to pay 'time and materials', heck... I'll work on your car!

Posted by TheVicariousVadder Replacing two cracked manifolds in a 2000 V8 Tundra.

you must be mistaken... toyotas don't ever break down.
toyota doesn't even have service manuals they are so reliable.

(lol)

Posted by bandi It's good motivation for me to hustle a bit,

which is what i don't want a mechanic to do with my car... i want it done thoroughly, methodically, and soundly and flat rate rewards the opposite. ive been a mechanic for 12 years (no... 13 years now, christ im getting old...) and never worked flat rate for a minute and never felt i was being ripped off when i was always getting paid for every hour i worked (unlike a number of my friends over the years who were hired by dealerships and had to sit playing cards in the lunchroom half the day and only getting paid for the other half because dealerships can afford to overstaff their shops when they don't have to pay mechanics who are sitting idle)... and the ones who make a killing on flat rate are doing so at MY expense because i basically paid for wrench time i did not get. finding a mechanic who will work straight time is not hard to do, all six times in my adult life i had to take a car in for repairs i insisted on straight time, and i got it; i even got to watch to make sure i wasnt getting hosed... i would absolutely HATE to be expected to rush through a repair job. if it's not done right because i didn't take the time i should have, even if a hose clamp leaks a bit... it's my license my reputation my liability. but to be fair heavy equipment and forklift is a bit more relaxed about shop turnover than car garages not just any MBA in a $300 suit can open a heavy equipment shop you need good business contacts and some knowledge of the industry and that has a lot more to do with profitability of the business than how fast a tech can crank out work orders versus a car garage where 95% of your business are walk-ins off the street...

Posted by steponmebbbboom which is what i don't want a mechanic to do with my car... i want it done thoroughly, methodically, and soundly and flat rate rewards the opposite.

not entirely the case. If a flat rate tech makes a mistake, he pays for it not once but twice. When the car returns for the dreaded COMEBACK, not only does he have to repair it on his own time and not get paid, he is also not picking up any jobs that may be queued up in the mean time. DOUBLE WHAMMY!
I have always had strict policies in place at shops i've run, that myself or a supervisor is with a tech side by side diagnosing a come back so he can not claim 'defective part' or some shit to get his warranty time.

(unlike a number of my friends over the years who were hired by dealerships and had to sit playing cards in the lunchroom half the day and only getting paid for the other half because dealerships can afford to overstaff their shops when they don't have to pay mechanics who are sitting idle)... and the ones who make a killing on flat rate are doing so at MY expense because i basically paid for wrench time i did not get.

There will be no successful shop (OEm or otherwise) who play the overstaff flat rate tech game very long. Why? Because techs making 20 units a week won't stick around very long when they're broke and starving. That means high turn over. Turnover is a HUGE liability to a business. It creates inconsistent quality levels, re-training every time a new guy walks in which is expensive

but to be fair heavy equipment and forklift is a bit more relaxed about shop turnover than car garages not just any MBA in a $300 suit can open a heavy equipment shop you need good business contacts and some knowledge of the industry and that has a lot more to do with profitability of the business than how fast a tech can crank out work orders versus a car garage where 95% of your business are walk-ins off the street...

In my experience, most auto shop owners are NOT MBA suits. They are in fact licensed techs who were working at a shop of whatever sort and decided they could "build a better widget" and open their own shops.

*******

I'm all for flat rate techs. I believe that a person should be rewarded for skill, knowledge and in this case, investing in the right tools. If a tech has seen the same problem in a vehicle 50 times... like a leaking 3.1L GM or a broken Ford coil spring and his learned the most efficient effective way to complete the job, why shouldn't he be rewarded accordingly? Everyone benefits. the tech makes more money, the shop makes more money and the owner gets his car back quicker. Hourly techs get penalized...or at very least not rewarded for developing skill or investing in tools and equipment.
Hard to be motivated when you're not rewarded!

Okay, I see now the error in my judgment; however flat rate repairs CAN be a scam especially when the source quoted is waaaayy off the repair time. They should be somewhat proportional. The issue we had with the Tundra was he just assumed the parts were the bulk of the cost and didn't get a second opinion and he trusted the dealership where he bought his vehicle.

It's his own fault for being scammed but that doesn't mean the dealership charging 10 hours of labor when the actual repair time was 3 is an honest business practice.

Canadian Tire and Midas are the worst. Can Tire charges full rates, but their mechanics are 'apprentices' or something. I'm fine with on the job training, but only if someone with superior training is actually, say, in the shop that day. Even worse, the manager was a dork and didn't listen, and 'assumed' my Jeep had a non adjustable alternator tensioner.

Never again, the guy couldn't even replace a fuel pump in my '90 Jeep Cherokee. I stood and watched and told him, no, the fuel pump you have installed is defective. There is gas in my tank, you don't need to add more gas.

At least 15 years ago before the '90 I had and '86 Cherokee. Took it to Midas for rear shocks. The guy got it on the hoist, and I told him; The rear shock mounts are known to rust, spray them with WD 40 or something before trying to loosen them.

He said: We don't do that. There was a can of the stuff on the floor. I said; what's that, he said, it's empty. I think he was the boss's nephew or something.

I don't like to hassle mechanics, but if you say nothing and trust them, then (sometimes/often) you'lle get hosed. So I just ask to check underneath when it's on the hoist, and ask a few questions.

Tried Midas recently with my parents (still running ) '94 Voyager. The dealer has always been a joke, and the nearest Midas is way too close to them.

I asked to look at the bill, they said, we can't print it until you pay! Unbelievable. Looking at the bill, they charged 50.00 to test the charging system, and 135.00 for an Interstate battery, which I believe is a decent brand, although I've always done well with, and like Diehards. They charged 35.00 more than I've ever paid for a battery, and the test charge is a joke.

Corporate pigs looking to vacuum peoples wallets. I've found a local mechanic last year who does good work for a fair price.

Here's a clue. If they are booked up until next week, there's a good chance they do good work and are worth the wait. If they say, bring it in tomorrow morning, they are way too not busy.

Fuel saving gadgets? Lol, the only one I trust has cards attached to the spokes

i've had some bad experiences with mechanics and learned from them.
My brother works for a Chevrolet dealership and has been in the game for a while. He's very proficient and as far as I know, has had maybe one or two comebacks (and to be fair, these cars were pieces of shit that had gremlins to begin with). He works for an hourly rate. I think he's making $12 or 13 something an hour, 40 hours a week.

Posted by A. Lien Canadian Tire and Midas are the worst. Can Tire charges full rates, but their mechanics are 'apprentices' or something. I'm fine with on the job training, but only if someone with superior training is actually, say, in the shop that day.

Naturally i will be quick to defend CT. CT technicians hold the exact same license as any other licensed technician in the Province they operate in. Yes, there are bad ones, yes there are bad experiences, yes there are apprentices.

That's all


I have to admit i've had good experiences with auto service nearly everywhere! I've used an Audi dealer in Kitchener and the Hummer dealer in Edmonton & Waterloo while under warranty. All 3 gave me loaner cars outside of when they were obliged to do so. I was hooked up with by far the best tech and most honest auto business guy i've ever worked with (including the ones that work for me) who ran his own small shop.

Posted by Samurai you must be mistaken... toyotas don't ever break down. toyota doesn't even have service manuals they are so reliable. (lol)

No, that's Cobalts.

Posted by steponmebbbboom which is what i don't want a mechanic to do with my car... i want it done thoroughly, methodically, and soundly and flat rate rewards the opposite.

Were you born with your foot in your mouth?

I have to keep a standard of work quality or a)I get paid less/lose my job, and b)The dealership service score goes down, which in turn causes our warranty pay rate to go down. I'm expected to fix things properly, I HAVE to fix things properly, and I do fix things properly. I'm expected to do training every few weeks to keep up to date. If the shop is dead, we don't play cards. We do training, which we get paid to do.
We had a mechanic here who liked to take short cuts, and he's gone.

If a comeback happens, it goes on the tech's record. I found working hourly in a shop to be merciless... they seemed to want everything done a hell of a lot faster, which does lead to mistakes, and I don't benefit at all if I get more done. Now, if I work hard, I see the results on my paycheque.

I haven't been asked to hurry a job while on flat rate yet... so I'm not sure where you're coming from there.

Congrats on being a mechanic though.

Posted by TheVicariousVadder because if "they put their worst mechanic on it; it'd have been up on the lift for two days but they put their best mechanic on it and it was done in three hours"

Hahaha... WOW. That's a warning sign right there about that shop :p

Posted by bandi I have to keep a standard of work quality or a)I get paid less/lose my job, and b)The dealership service score goes down, which in turn causes our warranty pay rate to go down. I'm expected to fix things properly, I HAVE to fix things properly, and I do fix things properly. I'm expected to do training every few weeks to keep up to date. If the shop is dead, we don't play cards. We do training, which we get paid to do.

What training is provided or offered to GM techs? is it online e-learning stuff or is it the Cars Network?

Do you have access to and/or use the AC Delco tech line at all?

Posted by bandi No, that's Cobalts.

lol.
you're a mean bastard today.


where my brother works, the techs work hourly, but the service people work on commission... basically, the more jobs they send through the shop, the more cash they make so they are always merciless in their scheduling. I will say this about my brothers' shop, their techs are really good. One of the guys is a Master Tech and transmission specialist. I'm really picky about who puts their hands on my car and there isn't anyone in that shop that I have reservations about.

I have seen some awful shady shops, though. In a small area like this, they usually don't stay in business long.

Posted by bandi Hahaha... WOW. That's a warning sign right there about that shop :p

The Toyota certified dealership where he bought it. He used to have a good friend who worked there, but his friend relocated due to an argument with the General Manager. Hell the GM of dealership where I bought my Subie said he's had "words with the Toyota GM before"

However, he called Toyota and complained and Toyota even said it was unreasonable and they recommended he filed a better business bureau report against them. Both of which were ultimately uneventful and we were out the cash.

_{The full story was we were leaving on vacation for a week the next day and we got a [free] recall notice on something that he got fixed and then they said the manifolds were also cracked and he went in while it was on the lift and checked them himself ... they quoted him the total price for the job but he didn't ask for a breakdown of parts and labor; just assumed the cost was parts. Three hours later the truck was off the lift and we were on our way to Cape Cod. When we got back the bill had come in the mail during the time we where away ... He saw they charged 800 in parts and 10 hours of labor, but it was only on the lift for an additional three hours after the free recall work had been done.}

But it's all cool really ... the fucked him on labor but he's fucked them over ten times on sales. He's turned away several potential customers from that dealership (including five family members including my uncle who buys a new car every three years)

Posted by Samurai I think he's making $12 or 13 something an hour, 40 hours a week.

holy COW, i'm making more than twice that amount. Why is this guy killing himself for less than half my wage?

Posted by bandiI found working hourly in a shop to be merciless... they seemed to want everything done a hell of a lot faster, which does lead to mistakes,

why would a manager rush you if he's getting straight time for your work, theres no benefit to fast turnover all that matters in a straight time shop is utilization (hours billed for hours worked) unless he's fudging your labour times which is FRAUD and has nothing to do with the straight time system.
he/she wants your bay to get as close to 40 hours billed as possible and could care less how you spent those hours as long as you billed them and made customers happy. ive spent twelve years in the trade under this system in the shop and on the road at customers jobsites and it makes money just fine without pressuring me to work faster.

Were you born with your foot in your mouth?

lol, cute...

Posted by steponmebbbboom ive spent twelve years in the trade under this system in the shop and on the road at customers jobsites and it makes money just fine without pressuring me to work faster.

I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges.

If I got what you are saying right, you are a forklift mechanic. In other words, you are employed by the company who owns the forklifts. Naturally they are going to pay you straight time.

I was a line tech at a GM dealership for 12 years. After that I was a road mechanic for 15 years at a company that rented high-reach and heavy-lift equipment. There is no comparison in the way you earn your money between the two. The nearest thing I can think of is what we named "call-out" time. Essentially, you got four hours of pay when you were called out after hours even if the call only took a half hour.

Flat rate seems to be a difficult concept for people to understand when they've never had to earn a living that way.