From what I understand ( and oh dear lord I could be wrong, I usually am) the ore itself comes from one mine in a thirdworld country in Africa. Its made and processed all over the world but the actually ore is mined in Africa :dunno: then again, I could be totally off.

Posted by atomx Solar, wind, any other renewable. Or even if it comes from coal, it still pollutes less per km/mile to charge then to burn. If you buy a solar system at the same time you can charge your home system during the day and then from that charge your car at night. Even charging from the grid will cost you around 2 cents a mile.

here in the US no one wants wind or solar plants in their backyard and nuclear (GASP!!!!!!!!) is a forbidden subject. For us in the northeast, hydroelectric is nice, but again, no one wants a damn dam in sight of the reclusive summer home. Here in the Adirondacks, we have two power companies, NYSEG and National Grid... and they walk the charges right to you.

Expensive? Really, aside from the charging system what's expensive? Motor for electric, simpler to fix than ANY internal combustion motor and far less expensive. Moving parts=3. Rotor, and 2 bearings. Parts that wear, brushes, if they use brushes. As for who can do it? The general electrician can do it. I can do it, you can do it. Electric cars have been converted, built, and maintained by simple hippies (not calling hippies dumb), and teenagers.

all well and good and valid, but a Prius, et all are not full on electric cars... they are hybrids and a douche to service and repair when something breaks. Full on electric cars would not and will not work for 90% of the United States and Canada... sorry, but where I live, the roads, weather conditions and weird weather would chew an electric car up and spit it out. Electro-cars are for nice places like the American southwest.

Now on to green Jeeps. Yes, your car has lasted 30 years, but when my car, that uses 1/5 the fuel does, cost me 1/3 the price to buy now compared to yours then and still gets me from A to B with no problems I tend to disagree that a Jeep is green. If you can't tell I'd prefer full electric. Free driving if you have your own solar.

a 2.5L Jeep really isn't that bad on fuel... it's the axle ratio that a particular Jeep is saddled with that makes all the difference.
as i have said before, if people were serious about mpg's, we'd take a look at the auto industry in Europe and go with small displacement turbo-diesels.

Posted by jeepdave Another question, has anyone ever looked into where all that lithium (sp) comes from? You would be surprised, and its not renewable BTW. God forbid a war happens there :rolleyes:

There was a "Green" study done a few years back...wish i could find it now about total eco footprint for vehicles including manufacturing through to death. It pitted a Hummer against a Prius. Vague on details but the part that stuck out for me was the manufacturing by-products and disposal whatevers related to a bunch of batteries in each Prius made it LESS eco friendly overall then a Hummer.

How accurate and factual... no idea, but it seemed reasonable

Posted by oddspot There was a "Green" study done a few years back...wish i could find it now about total eco footprint for vehicles including manufacturing through to death. It pitted a Hummer against a Prius. Vague on details but the part that stuck out for me was the manufacturing by-products and disposal whatevers related to a bunch of batteries in each Prius made it LESS eco friendly overall then a Hummer. How accurate and factual... no idea, but it seemed reasonable

i saw that article too, and it is completely correct.

http://www.pacinst...ummer_vs_prius.pdf

Posted by atomx Solar, wind, any other renewable. Or even if it comes from coal, it still pollutes less per km/mile to charge then to burn. If you buy a solar system at the same time you can charge your home system during the day and then from that charge your car at night. Even charging from the grid will cost you around 2 cents a mile. Expensive? Really, aside from the charging system what's expensive? Motor for electric, simpler to fix than ANY internal combustion motor and far less expensive. Moving parts=3. Rotor, and 2 bearings. Parts that wear, brushes, if they use brushes. As for who can do it? The general electrician can do it. I can do it, you can do it. Electric cars have been converted, built, and maintained by simple hippies (not calling hippies dumb), and teenagers. I agree that batteries have something to be desired but new technologies are coming around. We already deal with old batteries now, just has to be done on a larger scale. Now on to green Jeeps. Yes, your car has lasted 30 years, but when my car, that uses 1/5 the fuel does, cost me 1/3 the price to buy now compared to yours then and still gets me from A to B with no problems I tend to disagree that a Jeep is green. If you can't tell I'd prefer full electric. Free driving if you have your own solar.

Youve missed the point of this thread. We are talking about life-cycle energy use, not day-to-day energy use after manufacture. NET ENERGY is not a money problem, you cannot bend the laws of thermodynamics with dollars.

Posted by jeepdave Another question, has anyone ever looked into where all that lithium (sp) comes from? You would be surprised, and its not renewable BTW. God forbid a war happens there :rolleyes:

That is the achilles' heel of electric vehicles right there. There isnt even enough COPPER in the world to scale use of electric passenger cars up to supplant our use of internal-combustion passenger cars. Let alone lithium and other exotic materials. Same can be said of solar panels, Ethanol, Bio-Diesel and just about any other alternative energy proposition. Look at every one of them and consider our current energy consumption levels, (1) How long will it take and (2) How much will it cost to build the required infrastructure that will attain that energy demand? There is NOTHING currently on the table that can replace our voracious appetite for fossil fuels, when that supply runs out our only option is to stop consuming. This means our best plan for the future is conservation of energy, period.

Best way to do that is to use what we've got, while it still works. The Jeep is a proven platform that works and is simple to repair, in a lean economic environment where everyone has to do more with less, jeeps vw bugs and other dead-simple out-dated cars and trucks thrive where others cannot. look at what people are driving in any third-world country when they can afford to drive at all, THATS whats truly green. I can back all these claims with references from trusted sources for anyone who's interested.

Don't worry...in 2030, we will discover Mars has copper

I'm not saying that full electric is good for everyone, but only %95 of the population and their everyday use.

Why don't you want solar or wind in your back yard? Because wind makes some noise, sorry, but wait coal is killing you. You don't want solar cause it's expansive to install (and free from then on in), sorry, but wait coal is killing you. You don't want to drive a car that will allow you do drive to work and back with just charging it overnight, it doesn't smell from burning fossil fuels, require oil changes, and coolant.


Just quickly found an article on recycling Li-ion batteries.
http://www.hybridc...tteries-26047.html


And a quick look at what can be done.
http://www.teslamo...nce/tech_specs.php
236 mile range. (I know you can do better with gas/diesel, but there's nothing coming from the tailpipe)

Posted by atomx I'm not saying that full electric is good for everyone, but only %95 of the population and their everyday use. Why don't you want solar or wind in your back yard? Because wind makes some noise, sorry, but wait coal is killing you. You don't want solar cause it's expansive to install (and free from then on in), sorry, but wait coal is killing you. You don't want to drive a car that will allow you do drive to work and back with just charging it overnight, it doesn't smell from burning fossil fuels, require oil changes, and coolant. Just quickly found an article on recycling Li-ion batteries. http://www.hybridc...tteries-26047.html And a quick look at what can be done. http://www.teslamo...nce/tech_specs.php 236 mile range. (I know you can do better with gas/diesel, but there's nothing coming from the tailpipe)

for the second time, there are not enough of the exotic materials key to production of solar panels in existence to build enough panels to make a significant impact in our dependence on fossil fuels. Again you are not considering the energy that went into production of wind and solar generators nor are you considering the limited supply of materials available. Do you have any idea how many wind farms and solar generators would have to be built to generate the same amount of energy we are consuming from fossil fuels?

I think what we will see for North America is that all people in the big cities and subrubs who do daily communtes will be on electric, but the people elsewhere will go to diesel/natural gas/propane/e85/etc which at that point, America will no longer need to import oil because the demand from US sources will be sufficient for locomotives, trucks, etc.

Posted by Agent Skelly I think what we will see for North America is that all people in the big cities and subrubs who do daily communtes will be on electric, but the people elsewhere will go to diesel/natural gas/propane/e85/etc which at that point, America will no longer need to import oil because the demand from US sources will be sufficient for locomotives, trucks, etc.

I see a massive migration of gear heads to rural areas.

Posted by atomx I'm not saying that full electric is good for everyone, but only %95 of the population and their everyday use. Why don't you want solar or wind in your back yard? Because wind makes some noise, sorry, but wait coal is killing you. You don't want solar cause it's expansive to install (and free from then on in), sorry, but wait coal is killing you. You don't want to drive a car that will allow you do drive to work and back with just charging it overnight, it doesn't smell from burning fossil fuels, require oil changes, and coolant. Just quickly found an article on recycling Li-ion batteries. http://www.hybridc...tteries-26047.html And a quick look at what can be done. http://www.teslamo...nce/tech_specs.php 236 mile range. (I know you can do better with gas/diesel, but there's nothing coming from the tailpipe)

There's been some studies around Canadian wind farms showing that people living near wind farms experience weird health problems. dizzyness and hearing problems, constant nausea etc.... I'm not yet convinced but interesting none the less.

The Li-Ion article jumps the gun a little bit given that it seems most of todays hybrids are still using NIMH batteries, which are completely different. Until Li-Ion becomes the staple for the automotive industry, it doesn't seem to be of importance (though good on them for being ahead of the curve if it goes that way)

As far as the Tesla goes.... i'm a huge fan but I understand that the rated specs are not actually what they are performing at in real life test scenarios. Looks good on paper though.
Clearly they are leading the pack in creating a sustainable affordable electric car

Posted by jeepdave I see a massive migration of gear heads to rural areas.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm sure there will be a percentage of people who still drive cars that run on fuel still in the city.

Posted by steponmebbbboom for the second time, there are not enough of the exotic materials key to production of solar panels in existence to build enough panels to make a significant impact in our dependence on fossil fuels.

Costs are being drastically reduced and non expensive materials have been developed by IBM (Strange I know).

Again you are not considering the energy that went into production of wind and solar generators nor are you considering the limited supply of materials available. Do you have any idea how many wind farms and solar generators would have to be built to generate the same amount of energy we are consuming from fossil fuels?

Yes, one on your rooftop. And you can sustain yourself and your family. For those that don't have there 'own roof' there are the farms. Spain has already reached the target that they set within one year (even though they did it a un-economical way, but still shows it can be done)

This concept of living fossil fuel free is not difficult, people have done this, people have been living this way for decades, before fossil fuels we still survived. I know it's a difficult thing to get rid of, but we can have faster, longer lasting, almost maintenance free cars that don't cost more than a years wage.

If you have the need to go farther than an electric can currently go, may i suggest bio diesel?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm sure there will be a percentage of people who still drive cars that run on fuel still in the city.

I hate to say it but that might become highly taxed if not illegal at one point, where there will more than likely be a separation between the two cultures of zappies and burners.


And have I misused the point of this thread?

People are driving around in the Jeeps saying I'm green because it cost less in all aspects to build this car than it did for the Sunfire/Sunbird/Cavalier that's still running and being not so bad on gas? Or the Cobolts that will still be around in 20 years. Yet it's still spewing out harmful and noxious fumes at 3-4 times the rate than one such as the VW's, or any other halfway decent fuel efficient car emits.

Go ahead, call yourself green, it's just a lie that the fuel companies want you to keep thinking. Keep buying the fuel for it that's all they want.

Posted by atomx People are driving around in the Jeeps saying I'm green because it cost less in all aspects to build this car than it did for the Sunfire/Sunbird/Cavalier that's still running and being not so bad on gas? Or the Cobolts that will still be around in 20 years. Yet it's still spewing out harmful and noxious fumes at 3-4 times the rate than one such as the VW's, or any other halfway decent fuel efficient car emits. Go ahead, call yourself green, it's just a lie that the fuel companies want you to keep thinking. Keep buying the fuel for it that's all they want.

You have completly missed the point. And I cannot believe by how wide a margine.

Posted by atomx Go ahead, call yourself green, it's just a lie that the fuel companies want you to keep thinking. Keep buying the fuel for it that's all they want.

If a car costs more to maintain, more to build, more to purchase, doesn't last as long, and then costs more to dispose of its gas savings while in service are rather negated.

Lets break this down simply and slowly.

How much do you spend on gas each year driving a jeep?

Well, that would depend on how much I drive. I knock out 20 mpg if I drive it sane. But since this thread isn't about operating cost I have no idea why it would matter?

I get about 21 mpg in my stratus, due in no small part to an evap system leak and a wheel bearing that is dying. Long story short, I will need a new car.

To buy a Cobalt or Fiesta (with the fuel economy package) would cost me around $16k but get me 30 city/40 highway.

To buy a Crown Vic from my grandfather in mint condition would cost me 7k, but get me 20-21mpg combined (roughly... almost the same as what I'm getting now).

So, it's cheapest for me to stick with my stratus and repair it, because it's paid for otherwise... even if I continue to get 21mpg or so, it would cost me 7k more plus lifetime repairs to go with the Vickie.

By comparison, it would cost me about $16k and take nearly 15 years for the Cobalt or Fiesta in order for it to have made an impact on my lifetime spending for the car. But then you factor in the 15 years worth of maintenance on the car, and it's going to extend out the repayment period even further.

Now apply this same logic to a Prius or Insight or other hybrid (nevermind full electric). These cars will be around 30k and net me 35 city/50 highway mpgs. Add in more expensive insurance (because of the extra batteries and the electical hazard) plus increased maintenance cost, and my repayment period is 20 years or more, even if gas breaks $4 a gallon again.

From a personal standpoint, my shitty, lovely Stratus, which costs very little to maintain (overall) will be more financially rewarding for me in the long run and still burn pretty much the same amount of gas (and oil, lulz) as any of the others would over their lifetime if it were relatively scaled.

Then also, the newer generations of cars aren't lasting as long even when you baby them, plus battery replacement every 5-7 years for hybrids. Seems like a lot more resources (both mine and the planet's) in the long run.

Posted by velcrozeppelin I get about 21 mpg in my stratus, due in no small part to an evap system leak and a wheel bearing that is dying. Long story short, I will need a new car. To buy a Cobalt or Fiesta (with the fuel economy package) would cost me around $16k but get me 30 city/40 highway. To buy a Crown Vic from my grandfather in mint condition would cost me 7k, but get me 20-21mpg combined (roughly... almost the same as what I'm getting now). So, it's cheapest for me to stick with my stratus and repair it, because it's paid for otherwise... even if I continue to get 21mpg or so, it would cost me 7k more plus lifetime repairs to go with the Vickie. By comparison, it would cost me about $16k and take nearly 15 years for the Cobalt or Fiesta in order for it to have made an impact on my lifetime spending for the car. But then you factor in the 15 years worth of maintenance on the car, and it's going to extend out the repayment period even further. Now apply this same logic to a Prius or Insight or other hybrid (nevermind full electric). These cars will be around 30k and net me 35 city/50 highway mpgs. Add in more expensive insurance (because of the extra batteries and the electical hazard) plus increased maintenance cost, and my repayment period is 20 years or more, even if gas breaks $4 a gallon again. From a personal standpoint, my shitty, lovely Stratus, which costs very little to maintain (overall) will be more financially rewarding for me in the long run and still burn pretty much the same amount of gas (and oil, lulz) as any of the others would over their lifetime if it were relatively scaled. Then also, the newer generations of cars aren't lasting as long even when you baby them, plus battery replacement every 5-7 years for hybrids. Seems like a lot more resources (both mine and the planet's) in the long run.

THIS ^^^^

I've never understood when people think they are going to save gas money by getting a newer car when the car they have isn't that old. Maybe if you are going from a 1970 big block Cadillac to a used Geo metro you might break even pretty quick, but most of the time it takes much longer. Yet every day I see people willing to sell the decent vehicle they've got jump 15K into debt and gain 4 mpg average from what they had :0