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UER Forum > Private Boards Index > Religious Discussion > God loves you, except for you homos... (Viewed 5727 times)
tekriter 


Location: in the Hindu Kush
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Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 20 on 1/12/2011 2:20 PM >
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Posted by splumer


The Sermon on the Mount?



Matthew 5:39

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


This is clearly immoral.

I'm not sure turning the other cheek would have been a good solution for the Nazis.

Maybe this is why the west allowed 800,000 men, women and children get hacked to death by evil men in Rwanda. Or maybe just cause thy were not white....


"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. "


John Stuart Mill




It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
sgbofav 


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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 21 on 1/12/2011 7:15 PM >
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Posted by tekriter


Uh, have you read the bible? Where exactly does it teach love and forgiveness?


It is not uncommon for Christians to have questions about forgiveness. Forgiveness does not come easy for most of us. Our natural instinct is to recoil in self-protection when we've been injured. We don't naturally overflow with mercy, grace and forgiveness when we've been wronged.

Is forgiveness a conscious choice, a physical act involving the will, or is it a feeling, an emotional state of being? The Bible offers insight and answers to these and many more common questions about forgiveness. We'll take a look at the most common questions and find out what the Bible says about forgiveness.
Is forgiveness a conscious choice, or an emotional state?
I believe forgiveness is a choice we make through a decision of our will, motivated by obedience to God and his command to forgive.

The Bible instructs us to forgive as the Lord forgave us:

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. (NIV)

How do we forgive when we don't feel like it? How do we translate the decision to forgive into a change of heart?
We forgive by faith, out of obedience. Since forgiveness goes against our nature, we must forgive by faith, whether we feel like it or not. We must trust God to do the work in us that needs to be done so that the forgiveness will be complete.

I believe God honors our commitment to obey Him and our desire to please him when we choose to forgive. He completes the work in his time. We must continue to forgive (our job), by faith, until the work of forgiveness (the Lord's job), is done in our hearts.

Philippians 1:6
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns. (NLT)

How will we know if we have truly forgiven?
Corrie Ten Boom, a Christian woman who survived a Nazi concentration camp during the Holocaust, said, "Forgiveness is to set a prisoner free, and to realize the prisoner was you."

We will know the work of forgiveness is complete when we experience the freedom that comes as a result. We are the ones who suffer most when we choose not to forgive. When we do forgive, the Lord sets our hearts free from the anger, bitterness, resentment and hurt that previously imprisoned us.

Most times, however, forgiveness is a slow process.

Matthew 18:21-22
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. (NIV)

This answer by Jesus makes it clear that forgiveness is not easy for us. It's not a one-time choice and then we automatically live in a state of forgiveness. Forgiveness may require a lifetime of forgiving, but it is important to the Lord. We must continue forgiving until the matter is settled in our heart.
What if the person we need to forgive is not a believer?
I have found that prayer is one of the best ways to break down the wall of unforgiveness in my heart. When I begin to pray for the person who has wronged me, God gives me new eyes to see and a new heart to care for that person. As I pray, I start to see that person as God sees them, and I realize that he or she is precious to the Lord. I also see myself in a new light, just as guilty of sin and failure as the other person. I too am in need of forgiveness. If God did not withhold his forgiveness from me, why should I withhold my forgiveness from another?
Is it okay to feel anger and want justice for the person we need to forgive?
This question presents another reason to pray for the person we need to forgive. We can pray for God to deal with the injustices, for God to judge the person's life, and then we can leave that prayer at the altar. We no longer have to carry the anger. Although it is normal for us to feel anger toward sin and injustice, it is not our job to judge the other person in their sin.

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. (NIV)

Why must we forgive?
The best reason to forgive is because Jesus commanded us to forgive. We learn from Scripture, if we don't forgive, neither will we be forgiven:

Matthew 6:14-16
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (NIV)

We also forgive so that our prayers will not be hindered:

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. (NIV)

In summary and in closing, we forgive out of obedience to the Lord. It is a choice, a decision we make. However, as we do this "forgiving," we discover the command is in place for our own good, and we receive the reward of our forgiveness - freedom.


Love:

Jesus taught that loving one's enemy means actively seeking to do good to the kind of person one would tend to feel enmity towards. The clearest teaching here is the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37). That this is not a peripheral story is made clear by this parable being part of a conversation about the fundamental religious question ("what must I do to gain eternal life?"). Within that conversation, the parable answers the question "who is my neighbor?" (as in, the way to gain eternal life is to love God and neighbor).

Jesus basically equates "neighbor" and "enemy" (the beaten Jew's "neighbor" is the Samaritan, his nation's worst enemy). So, "love your enemy" must mean show compassion and kindness toward all people, most especially those who in some sense are one's enemy.

This may be difficult to do, and because of this difficulty, one easily resorts to "what if?" kinds of questions. But the basic meaning seems pretty clear.

In his actions, Jesus followed this same kind of path. We may think most centrally of his respectful and kind involvement with lots of the people who we may assume could have been his enemies-law breakers, unclean people, Roman soldiers, Jewish religious leaders, those who put him on the cross.

It is clear from the responses Jesus himself received in his own lifetime, and from the responses pacifists have received ever since, that this whole issue of loving enemies is actually very much a question that can only ultimately be answered on the level of people's faith.

Jesus could explain quite clearly what he meant by loving enemies, and embody it in his life, but still that would not be clear nor persuasive to people who do not share his faith. That is, people who do not see God in the same way Jesus saw God, people who do not understand the nature of reality in the same way Jesus understood the nature of reality would not agree with him on loving enemies.

A person who is clear about what love of enemy means probably has gained such clarity due to a fundamental worldview conviction (faith commitment), not primarily due to rational argumentation. A person who is not clear will likely not gain clarity without such a commitment.

Certainly, the phrase "love of enemy" can easily be used as a platitude. As well, our Christian faith community has probably at times used this "love of enemy" lingo while at the same time knowing little about genuine love and kindness toward certain people within this same community. That is why we need continually to reflect on the question of how we understand and apply the call to love enemies.


I guarantee that fred phelps knows the bible better than you. His version is theologically correct. Your interpretation relies on simply ignoring the parts you don't like and accepting the ones you do.


Jesus clearly supported the OT. Why don't you?


The most compelling reason for Christians to read and study the Old Testament lies in the New Testament. The New Testament witnesses to the fact that Jesus of Nazareth is the One in whom and through whom all the promises of God find their fulfillment. These promises are only to be understood from the Old Testament. The fulfillment of the promises can be understood only in the context of the promises themselves. The New Testament presupposes a knowledge of the Old Testament. Everything that is a concern to the New Testament writers is part of the one redemptive history to which the Old Testament witnesses. The New Testament writers cannot separate the person and work of Christ, nor the life of the Christian community, from this sacred history which has its beginnings in the Old Testament.




[last edit 1/12/2011 7:18 PM by sgbofav - edited 1 times]

tekriter 


Location: in the Hindu Kush
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Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 22 on 1/12/2011 10:04 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Of all the point I made and questions I asked you, this is what you take away? I'm sure we are all very happy to hear what your church's sunday school website says.

Bible studies reveal that there were actually two meanings of forgiveness in the scripture: forgiveness of debt, and of "trespasses". But let's forget that the scripture is a poorly translated and largely redacted second hand version of outrageously improbale events in the first century for just a moment.

Please pick all the low hanging fruit and ignore the deeper questions of philosophy or criticisms of poorly constructed arguments.

Posted by sgbofav
Is forgiveness a conscious choice, a physical act involving the will, or is it a feeling, an emotional state of being? The Bible offers insight and answers to these and many more common questions about forgiveness. We'll take a look at the most common questions and find out what the Bible says about forgiveness.Is forgiveness a conscious choice, or an emotional state?
I believe forgiveness is a choice we make through a decision of our will, motivated by obedience to God and his command to forgive.


Now we'll take a look at some other forgiveness.

The vatican has forgiven the nazis. Not one has ever been excommunicated and the vatican archives detailing complicity in the holocaust remain sealed.

Since you accept that the OT is part of the bible, let us look at god's forgiveness:

Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Indeed it is a physical act involving will. and fire.

Posted by sgbofav
The Bible instructs us to forgive as the Lord forgave us:

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. (NIV)


Here we see that not everyone should be forgiven:

Mark 3:29: whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness and is guilty of an eternal sin.

But the church has a great history of forgiveness. Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition in 1231, and burning was quickly decided upon as the official Christian forgivess. (the infidels must have been gay, or worked on the sabbath, or were gay on the sabbath)

The church also had several large forgiveness campaigns known as the Crusades. many people were so overcome by the act of fogiveness they up and died.


Posted by sgbofav
How do we forgive when we don't feel like it? How do we translate the decision to forgive into a change of heart?
We forgive by faith, out of obedience. Since forgiveness goes against our nature, we must forgive by faith, whether we feel like it or not. We must trust God to do the work in us that needs to be done so that the forgiveness will be complete.


1) you assert, without proof that "faith" is required to forgive. I have no faith, I forgive, therefore faith is NOT required to forgive. Fail.

2) You assert we must trust god, and be obedient to fogive. This assumes a god, specifically one that must be obeyed. This assumption is baseless in fact and the argument is invalid. Fail.


Posted by sgbofav
I believe God honors our commitment to obey Him and our desire to please him when we choose to forgive. He completes the work in his time. We must continue to forgive (our job), by faith, until the work of forgiveness (the Lord's job), is done in our hearts.


We "must"? I sense no such compulsion. In fact I have yet to forgive the church for misrepresenting reality to me as a child, therefore "we" are not required to forgive. False assumtion. Fail.

Posted by sgbofav
Philippians 1:6
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns. (NLT)


How is the writer certain? Is any supporting evidence provided or are we just supposed to believe that there is a supernatural being that wil be in me, and that deceased persons can "come bacK"? sounds impossible based on what we know about the world, and I for one would like some proof.

The bible itself demands a higher standard of evidence than you!

Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Posted by sgbofav
How will we know if we have truly forgiven?
Corrie Ten Boom, a Christian woman who survived a Nazi concentration camp during the Holocaust, said, "Forgiveness is to set a prisoner free, and to realize the prisoner was you."


This is deep. The jews just execute the scumbags when they catch them. (More evidence against "must forgive" compulsions)

Again, why does forgiveness require magical thinking? This one time, when I was five, this other kid stephen stole my bike. I got it back later. He had a cool cap gun, so I forgave him and we were good friends for years. The facts were all observable and consistent with the known world.

Posted by sgbofav
We will know the work of forgiveness is complete when we experience the freedom that comes as a result. We are the ones who suffer most when we choose not to forgive. When we do forgive, the Lord sets our hearts free from the anger, bitterness, resentment and hurt that previously imprisoned us.


I had chest X-rays a few years ago and could detect no "god" holding my heart captive. Explain how god can control my heart, or even my emotions, or how you know that there is a god?

Posted by sgbofav
Most times, however, forgiveness is a slow process.

Matthew 18:21-22
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. (NIV)


But if he does seventy eight things that piss you off, you have my permision to throw him into a lake of fire. Sorry (you may forgive me, or not). Jesus walked right into that one.

How many times do gay people have to sin before getting killed?

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


Posted by sgbofav
This answer by Jesus makes it clear that forgiveness is not easy for us. It's not a one-time choice and then we automatically live in a state of forgiveness. Forgiveness may require a lifetime of forgiving, but it is important to the Lord. We must continue forgiving until the matter is settled in our heart.
What if the person we need to forgive is not a believer?
I have found that prayer is one of the best ways to break down the wall of unforgiveness in my heart. When I begin to pray for the person who has wronged me, God gives me new eyes to see and a new heart to care for that person. As I pray, I start to see that person as God sees them, and I realize that he or she is precious to the Lord. I also see myself in a new light, just as guilty of sin and failure as the other person. I too am in need of forgiveness. If God did not withhold his forgiveness from me, why should I withhold my forgiveness from another?
Is it okay to feel anger and want justice for the person we need to forgive?
This question presents another reason to pray for the person we need to forgive. We can pray for God to deal with the injustices, for God to judge the person's life, and then we can leave that prayer at the altar. We no longer have to carry the anger. Although it is normal for us to feel anger toward sin and injustice, it is not our job to judge the other person in their sin.


This is like a shakespearean soliloqouy where hamlet addresses his imaaginary friend.

insanity n. 1) mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.

Posted by sgbofav

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. (NIV)



Leviticus 19:15
In righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:15
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Corinthians 6:2-3
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?.


Posted by sgbofav
Why must we forgive?
The best reason to forgive is because Jesus commanded us to forgive. We learn from Scripture, if we don't forgive, neither will we be forgiven:

Matthew 6:14-16
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (NIV)


So? You have not demonstrated that there is a god, and I've seen no evidence that god not forgiveing me will have any detrimental effect on my life.

Posted by sgbofav
We also forgive so that our prayers will not be hindered:

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. (NIV)


http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Prayer does not work.

http://www.nytimes...health/31pray.html



In summary and in closing, nothing you have said intersects with rational discourse in any way. FAIL

More to follow.





[last edit 1/12/2011 10:05 PM by tekriter - edited 1 times]

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
splumer 


Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Gender: Male
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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 23 on 1/13/2011 1:27 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Bible passages notwithstanding, forgiveness has been the doctrine of most denominations for quite a while. I admit, though, that it is probably cherry-picking the nice stuff and ignoring the less nice stuff.

You know I'm on your side, tek, but I think it bears pointing out that what is in the Bible doesn't always correlate exactly to what is practiced by churches amd their members. If all Christian churches started following exactly all of what is in the Bible, we'd have a tremendous shitstorm of trouble, what with all the smiting that would be going on.

On the few occasions when I have been unfortunate enough to get stuck in a church on Sunday, I hear a lot of things that contradict the Bible. And frankly, I'm glad for that. Most churchies are fine, upstanding people. Taking Fred Phelps and his buddies to be representative of Christians is like saying Josef Stalin is representative of all left-wingers.




“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”

-Madeline Albright
sgbofav 


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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 24 on 1/13/2011 2:53 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
History of the Old Testament in Christianity
Christian Doctrine of the Old Testament

How are Christians to regard the Old Testament, given that it is essentially the sacred text of another religion? The answer lies in Christianity's view of its relationship to Judaism. The early Christians decided that while Judaism was the true revelation of God and the foundation of Christianity, Christianity represented a new era of God's dealings with the world so the extensive body of Jewish law was no longer binding. Similarly, the general Christian attitude toward the Old Testament may be summarized as follows:

Religious principles and ideas (such as the notion of a sovereign God who is active in human history) are appropriated; religious practices (such as dietary laws and sacrificial routines) are not. {1}

Thus the Old Testament is useful and edifying in that it tells of the true God's actions in Israel, but it does not carry the same level of authority or relevance as the New Testament.




sgbofav 


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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 25 on 1/13/2011 3:04 PM >
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Posted on Forum: UER Forum
Posted by tekriter
Of all the point I made and questions I asked you, this is what you take away? I'm sure we are all very happy to hear what your church's sunday school website says.


My Church doesn't have a Sunday School, and they don't teach much on their website.

But let's forget that the scripture is a poorly translated and largely redacted second hand version of outrageously improbale events in the first century for just a moment.


Christianity is not a blind faith. It is the only religion that can prove itself, and a main source of that proof is the Bible.


Bible and Science:


Statements Consistent With Paleontology

* Dinosaurs are referred to in several Bible books. The book of Job describes two dinosaurs. One is described in chapter 40 starting at verse 15, and the other in chapter 41 starting at verse 1. We think you will agree that 1½ chapters about dinosaurs is a lot—since most people do not even realize that they are mentioned in the Bible

Statements Consistent With Astronomy

* The Bible frequently refers to the great number of stars in the heavens. Here are two examples.

Genesis 22:17
Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.
Jeremiah 33:22
“As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.”

Even today, scientists admit that they do not know how many stars there are. Only about 3,000 can be seen with the naked eye. We have seen estimates of 1021 stars—which is a lot of stars.[2] (The number of grains of sand on the earth’s seashores is estimated to be 1025. As scientists discover more stars, wouldn’t it be interesting to discover that these two numbers match?)
* The Bible also says that each star is unique.

1 Corinthians 15:41
There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

All stars look alike to the naked eye.* Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.[1] (*Note: We understand that people can perceive some slight difference in color and apparent brightness when looking at stars with the naked eye, but we would not expect a person living in the first century A.D. to claim they differ from one another.)
* The Bible describes the precision of movement in the universe.

Jeremiah 31:35,36
Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
“If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
* The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space.

Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.

Meteorology Statements Consistent With Meteorology

* The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.

Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.
* The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.

Job 28:25
To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.

The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago. The relative weights of air and water are needed for the efficient functioning of the world’s hydrologic cycle, which in turn sustains life on the earth.[1] (If you are a physics enthusiast, please ignore our omission of the terms mass, gravity, and density from this comment.)

Biology Statements Consistent With Biology

* The book of Leviticus (written prior to 1400 BC) describes the value of blood.

Leviticus 17:11
‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

The blood carries water and nourishment to every cell, maintains the body’s temperature, and removes the waste material of the body’s cells. The blood also carries oxygen from the lungs throughout the body. In 1616, William Harvey discovered that blood circulation is the key factor in physical life—confirming what the Bible revealed 3,000 years earlier.[1]
* The Bible describes biogenesis (the development of living organisms from other living organisms) and the stability of each kind of living organism.

Genesis 1:11,12
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:21
So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:25
And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

The phrase “according to its kind” occurs repeatedly, stressing the reproductive integrity of each kind of animal and plant. Today we know this occurs because all of these reproductive systems are programmed by their genetic codes.[1]
* The Bible describes the chemical nature of flesh.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.
* It is a proven fact that a person’s mental and spiritual health is strongly correlated with physical health.[1] The Bible revealed this to us with these statements (and others) written by King Solomon about 950 BC.

Proverbs 12:4
An excellent wife is the crown of her husband,
But she who causes shame is like rottenness in his bones.
Proverbs 14:30
A sound heart is life to the body,
But envy is rottenness to the bones.
Proverbs 15:30
The light of the eyes rejoices the heart,
And a good report makes the bones healthy.
Proverbs 16:24
Pleasant words are like a honeycomb,
Sweetness to the soul and health to the bones.
Proverbs 17:22
A merry heart does good, like medicine,
But a broken spirit dries the bones.

Anthropology Statements Consistent With Anthropology

* We have cave paintings and other evidence that people inhabited caves. The Bible also describes cave men.

Job 30:5,6
They were driven out from among men,
They shouted at them as at a thief.
They had to live in the clefts of the valleys,
In caves of the earth and the rocks.

Note that these were not ape-men, but descendants of those who scattered from Babel. They were driven from the community by those tribes who competed successfully for the more desirable regions of the earth. Then for some reason they deteriorated mentally, physically, and spiritually.[1] (Go into a bad part of your town and you will see this concept in action today.)

Hydrology Statements Consistent With Hydrology

* The bible includes reasonably complete descriptions of the hydrologic cycle.[3]

Psalm 135:7
He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.
Jeremiah 10:13
When He utters His voice,
There is a multitude of waters in the heavens:
“And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth.
He makes lightning for the rain,
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.”

In these verses you can see several phases of the hydrologic cycle—the worldwide processes of evaporation, translation aloft by atmospheric circulation, condensation with electrical discharges, and precipitation.[1]
Job 36:27-29
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?

This simple verse has remarkable scientific insight. The drops of water which eventually pour down as rain first become vapor and then condense to tiny liquid water droplets in the clouds. These finally coalesce into drops large enough to overcome the updrafts that suspend them in the air.[1]
* The Bible describes the recirculation of water.

Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.
Isaiah 55:10
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
* The Bible refers to the surprising amount of water that can be held as condensation in clouds.

Job 26:8
He binds up the water in His thick clouds,
Yet the clouds are not broken under it.
Job 37:11
Also with moisture He saturates the thick clouds;
He scatters His bright clouds.
* Hydrothermal vents[4] are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?



The Proof of Prophecy


One of the strongest arguments for the accuracy of the Bible is its 100% accuracy in predicting the future. These future predictions are called “prophecies.” The Old Testament was written between approximately 1450 BC and 430 BC. During that time, many predictions of the future were recorded in the Bible by God’s prophets. Of the events that were to have taken place by now, every one happened just the way they predicted it would. No other “sacred writing” has such perfectly accurate predictions of the future.
One Type—The Messianic Prophecies

Of these prophecies, the most striking examples are the predictions about an “anointed one” (“Messiah” in Hebrew) who was to arrive in the future. About 4 BC, a miraculous event occurred—a boy named Jesus was born to a virgin named Mary. You can read His story in the book of Luke. Starting at age 30, Jesus fulfilled more and more of these prophecies written about the Messiah. His fulfillment of these prophecies was very spectacular: Jesus gave sight to the blind, made the lame walk, cured those who had leprosy, gave the deaf hearing, and raised people from the dead! These miracles and others were done many times in front of thousands of witnesses for three years. About 30 AD, Jesus was crucified (a prophecy) and died (a prophecy). Three days later he rose from the dead (another prophecy), after which He was seen by over 500 witnesses. Since these prophecies were written down at least 400 years before they happened, there is no doubt that the Bible’s writers were inspired supernaturally—by God. To examine these prophecies yourself, click on the link below.

aqua ball The Messianic Prophecies
A Second Type—Fulfilled Prophecy Dealing With Nations

There are many prophecies that can be proven through archaeology, especially prophecy dealing with entire nations. Typically, when God declared judgment on a nation, He would send a prophet to announce to the citizens why He was judging them and what He was going to do to them if they continued their evil behavior. On occasion, God would also tell the citizens how He would reward them if they started doing what was right. The book of Jonah records a case where the Assyrians stopped doing what was evil as a result of Jonah’s short prophecy. This is what God wanted, and God did not punish them as a result of their change of heart. However, most often the people would jeer at God’s prophet and continue their bad behavior—later becoming recipients of the exact punishment that God threatened.

Like other prophecy recorded in the Bible, these predictions support the supernatural inspiration of the Bible. The prophecies recorded in the Bible came true in such a detailed way that they could not have been predicted by chance. Further, archaeologists have evidence that these prophecies were written down many years before they were fulfilled, proving that they were not falsified documents claiming to be prophecies that came true. (The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls stopped the majority of that talk.) Although an entire web site could be filled with this information, we will provide one example—the foretelling of the destruction of Edom and its capital city of Petra.

aqua ball Click here for an example of fulfilled prophecy dealing with nations
The Proof of Textual Evidence

Both the Old and New Testaments are strongly supported by manuscript evidence (the evidence of early hand written copies). The famous Dead Sea Scrolls are one example of the Old Testament evidence. These documents came from the “library” of a settlement founded at Qumran before 150 B.C. and abandoned about 68 A.D. Some of the manuscript copies were made during that period, and some were written earlier (third century BC) and brought to the settlement. Ignoring spelling-oriented (orthographic) changes and similar small differences, the Dead Sea Scrolls match the Hebrew text behind today’s Old Testament, in spite of the passage of over 2,000 years (where one would expect errors to creep in).

Over 20,000 known manuscripts document the New Testament text. This makes the New Testament the most reliable document of antiquity (a document written before the printing press). These manuscripts vary in size from a part of a page to an entire Bible (Old and New Testaments). The earliest New Testament manuscripts date from the second century (100-199) AD These manuscript copies were written in different languages by people of different nationalities, cultures, and backgrounds. In spite of all those differences between them, the New Testament texts all agree. (That is, those differences that we do observe between these hand written documents are occasional changes in the spelling of names or isolated cases of missing or changed words. Still, since we have so many copies, it is obvious to anyone but the hardened skeptic can that they all represent the same text.)

Note: Those minor differences that do exist between the Old and New Testament manuscripts are interesting for academic reasons. They are the topic of a future “in depth” Clarifying Christianity page. (It is currently about 10,000 words long and still under construction—stay tuned.)

The Proof of People Living at the Time of Christ

Special proof exists for the New Testament, since Christians were strongly persecuted by both the Jews and the Roman government. If the New Testament writings were false, these two groups would have produced a great deal of evidence to stop the growth of this “sect.” None exists. Further, the New Testament writings (before they were assembled into the “book” we call the New Testament) circulated during the lifetimes of thousands of people who had actually seen Jesus’ miracles and other historic events. No one ever refuted the New Testament writings as “fairy tales.”
The Proof of Historians

Secular history supports the Bible. For example, in The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes:

“Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

In 115 AD, P. Cornelius Tacitus wrote the following passage that refers to Jesus (called “Christus,” which means “The Messiah”) in book 15, chapter 44 of The Annals:

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.”

http://www.clarify....com/b_proof.shtml





tekriter 


Location: in the Hindu Kush
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Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 26 on 1/13/2011 3:18 PM >
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Posted by splumer
You know I'm on your side, tek, but I think it bears pointing out that what is in the Bible doesn't always correlate exactly to what is practiced by churches amd their members. If all Christian churches started following exactly all of what is in the Bible, we'd have a tremendous shitstorm of trouble, what with all the smiting that would be going on.


You are so right. Don't you think that's a problem?

I appreciate the thought, but my issue is with unreasonable ideas. The same people that don't follow some parts of the bible use the bible as justifiacation to do bad things. Slavery. Suppressing science. Discriminating against gays, or women. The list of bad deeds that you can use that book for is as endless as the things that you can't prove don't exist.

Who decides what part of the bible is wrong and what parts are right? Why didn't their imaginary friend just make a correct message? Does not the immorality of the bible along with it's endless contradictions, ambiguities, glaring errors and absurdities not call into question the entire system of belief?

Case in point:


Christianity is not a blind faith. It is the only religion that can prove itself, and a main source of that proof is the Bible.



[last edit 1/13/2011 3:21 PM by tekriter - edited 1 times]

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
jeepdave 


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It's also a gun.

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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 27 on 1/13/2011 3:52 PM >
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Looks like ole Tekky is getting challenged. Sad that you simply revert to atheist talking points off websites to answer that challenged. I thought you would do more than discredit your own knowledge.




Ezekiel 25:17
tekriter 


Location: in the Hindu Kush
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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 28 on 1/13/2011 4:53 PM >
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Posted by jeepdave
Looks like ole Tekky is getting challenged. Sad that you simply revert to atheist talking points off websites to answer that challenged. I thought you would do more than discredit your own knowledge.


Really? Really? That's all you have to add, considering the cut and past diarhea of non-evidence above?


The bible, in any form, is evidence of nothing other than it's own shortcomings.

Everything above is reaching so badly, and is demonstrably trying to make the evidence fit the assertion. It is the typical fallacy of affirming the consequent.

EG:

If there is anything in the bible that is consisitent with science then the bible is true.

X passage I found could very thinly be interpreted as sounding like something a scienticst said.

The bible is therefore true.


FAIL.


This is no more valid than me arguing that:

If there is a single error in the bible then the bible is completely untrue.
The bible says Pi is 3
Therefore the bible is all wrong.


The BS that is cut and paste above is not more true because of it's verbiousity.


for example:

Statements Consistent With Paleontology

* Dinosaurs are referred to in several Bible books. The book of Job describes two dinosaurs. One is described in chapter 40 starting at verse 15, and the other in chapter 41 starting at verse 1. We think you will agree that 1½ chapters about dinosaurs is a lot—since most people do not even realize that they are mentioned in the Bible



This is very likely the stupidest thing than anyone has ever posted here and any christian should be embarrassed and he should hang his head in shame for trying to pass this off as evidence.

Here is the quote that he was too embarrased to even post:

40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
40:18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
40:19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
40:20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
40:21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
40:22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
40:23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
40:24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.


1) This is a story, a fiction that you don't even know the author of.
2) Which dinosaur is this consistent with? One that lived in the first century BCE and walked around with people? Come on. That in itself is not consistent with any known physical evidence and paleontologists would laugh at you.



If this is the best challenge that you can present to a rational inquiry into the nature of the universe, then you are doomed.



[last edit 1/13/2011 4:54 PM by tekriter - edited 1 times]

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
jeepdave 


Location: Anderson, SC
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It's also a gun.

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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 29 on 1/13/2011 5:09 PM >
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Can't stand it can ya tekky. Being challenged. Lash out bucky, doesn't make you right. Just makes you seem scared and intolerant.




Ezekiel 25:17
tekriter 


Location: in the Hindu Kush
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Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 30 on 1/13/2011 5:29 PM >
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I'm sorry, do you have anything of substance to add? Can I take from your reply that you agree with me, but you just don't like me?

BTW, I am intolerant. I promote conversational intolerance of any unreasonable ideas anywhere I see them.

Ironic that a christian would call ANYONE intolerant.



[last edit 1/13/2011 5:30 PM by tekriter - edited 1 times]

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. Robert A. Heinlen
Samurai 

Vehicular Lord Rick


Location: northeastern New York
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No matter where you go, there you are...

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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 31 on 1/13/2011 7:27 PM >
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Posted by jeepdave
Can't stand it can ya tekky. Being challenged. Lash out bucky, doesn't make you right. Just makes you seem scared and intolerant.


allow me to take the lower road on this comment...





splumer 


Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 32 on 1/13/2011 7:34 PM >
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Christianity is not a blind faith. It is the only religion that can prove itself, and a main source of that proof is the Bible.


The Bible is right because the Bible says it's right? You do see the contradiction here, don't you?


40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
40:18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.


Couldn't that also describe an elephant?

I didn't read all of sgbofav's post, it being a little lengthy, but none of what I did read seemed all that startling. Yeah, the Bible's authors saw there were a shitload of stars in the sky. When I look at them, some look a slightly different color, and some are brighter than others, and that's with the light pollution of the suburbs.


Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.
* The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.


And how is this a brilliant scientific discovery? Anyone who waters a plant understand some fluid dynamics. You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.


* It is a proven fact that a person’s mental and spiritual health is strongly correlated with physical health.[1] The Bible revealed this to us with these statements (and others) written by King Solomon about 950 BC.


No shit, Sherlock! (BTW, I saw a special on the History channel last month about Solomon. Consensus says he didn't exist, but that's beside the point) Again, this doesn't take an MD to figure out.

I could go on. The fact is, people weren't stupid back then. Just because some basic science is mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean the God granted this wisdom onto the authors.

If the Bible had, say, the solution to Fermat's theorem, something about the germ theory of disease, or how to get your whites their whitest, then maybe we could talk.




“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”

-Madeline Albright
MonkeyPunchBaby 


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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 33 on 1/14/2011 5:43 PM >
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For fucks sake! You all are going on about how intolerant and bigoted christians are when you are as bad as them.

first of all, if your discussing anything that is christian that involves the old testament you have to throw it out, bc that is the old covenant and jesus is the new covenant. now jesus never made any rules are or laws or sins. he just said to get to have heaven you have to believe in him. not that fags cant get to heaven or bacon eaters cant.

also to say all christian hate homosexuals is stupid. a large amount of methodist churches approve of and have gay members. episcopalians(sp?) have openly gay and lesbian priests. There are a ton of forward thinking unbigoted churches.

to assume all christian hate gays is like saying as muslims fly planes into buildings or buddist monks set themselves on fire. its stupid and narrow minded to assume that.

for the record i am not a christian.




Samurai 

Vehicular Lord Rick


Location: northeastern New York
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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 34 on 1/14/2011 6:01 PM >
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Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby
For fucks sake! You all are going on about how intolerant and bigoted christians are when you are as bad as them.



you bet your ass i am intolerant motherfucker when it comes to this, especially after following a couple of these threads.




jeepdave 


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It's also a gun.

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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 35 on 1/14/2011 6:50 PM >
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Posted by Samurai


you bet your ass i am intolerant motherfucker when it comes to this, especially after following a couple of these threads.




Settle down Nancy.




Ezekiel 25:17
sgbofav 


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< Reply # 36 on 1/14/2011 7:10 PM >
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Enjoy the debate, I need to step out for a bit, my father-in law just passed away after a battle with cancer.


We will have to agree to disagree.




splumer 


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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 37 on 1/18/2011 3:44 PM >
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Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby

first of all, if your discussing anything that is christian that involves the old testament you have to throw it out, bc that is the old covenant and jesus is the new covenant. now jesus never made any rules are or laws or sins. he just said to get to have heaven you have to believe in him. not that fags cant get to heaven or bacon eaters cant.




Well then, that would include Genesis, would it not?



sgbofav, very sorry to hear about your father in law.




“We are not going to have the kind of cooperation we need if everyone insists on their own narrow version of reality. … the great divide in the world today … is between people who have the courage to listen and those who are convinced that they already know it all.”

-Madeline Albright
MonkeyPunchBaby 


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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 38 on 1/18/2011 3:54 PM >
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Posted by splumer

Well then, that would include Genesis, would it not?



yeah. if you are you discussing christian things you technically have to leave out old testament. that was kept as a reference. the new testament is what is supposed to be followed. at least thats my opinion since the old test is the old covenant and jesus and his teachings are the new covenant. alot bigots use teh old test to further their hatred. there a ton of laws and rules in the old testament they choose not to follow. for example, if a man and woman get married and he says shes not a virgin and it turns out to be true, they stone her to death. if he lied, then he just cant divorce her. also theres a section about a city man and country man getting into a fight who the country mans wife removes him from the fight by grabbing his junk he has the right to cut her hand off. in my opinion i think the old test is bullshit and was created by people for political and money and power gains.



[last edit 1/18/2011 3:54 PM by MonkeyPunchBaby - edited 1 times]

Samurai 

Vehicular Lord Rick


Location: northeastern New York
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No matter where you go, there you are...

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Re: God loves you, except for you homos...
< Reply # 39 on 1/18/2011 6:16 PM >
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Posted by MonkeyPunchBaby


yeah. if you are you discussing christian things you technically have to leave out old testament.


nope. sorry, you bought the whole package.
in for a penny, in for a motherfucking pound. You want to believe in this shit, you swallow the whole lump.




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